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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Ambassador4Christ
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« on: January 26, 2004, 12:15:05 AM »

By grace you have been saved.

God sent his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have a redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

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Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?

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Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
The Crusader
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2004, 05:39:51 AM »

God justifies ungodly sinners by His grace upon the ground of the shed blood of Christ through the means of faith. This complete sal­vation is bestowed as a free gift of God apart from man's works. (Rom. 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1,9; Eph. 2:8,9).

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aw
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2004, 10:14:51 AM »

The only TRUE gospel! It is a 100% FREE gift and all a sinful person can do is to RECEIVE it THROUGH faith. Faith is just the conduit/channel of the grace and that because it has NO MERIT. Faith stands in opposition to WORKS as all it does is TRUST completely in the Saviour.

Nicely stated and unbelievably, there are many Christians who do not have an understsanding of this concept. We cannot be effective witnesses until we know these truths.

Regards,

aw
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unworthy servant
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2004, 12:31:58 PM »

Could you explain this verse to me.  I know there are no contradictions in the Scriptures, since they are inspired by God, so why do the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you"?

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2004, 12:38:19 PM »

Hi Unworthy;
I've been taught that the baptism in this verse refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit (as opposed to water).  When we willingly receive God's Grace through Christ's spilled blood - we also accept and are baptised in The Holy Spirit.
JN
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JPD
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2004, 01:14:50 PM »

JN said "I've been taught that the baptism in this verse refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit (as opposed to water)."

So you are saying that baptism of the Holy Spirit saves you?  So, if there is only one baptism, which you say, is by the Holy Spirit, . . .

Eph 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Then why were the imitators of Christ baptising in water? That makes two baptisms?  . . . one in water and one in the spirit. Isn't that a contradiction?

Acts 8:36-38  As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2004, 01:20:53 PM »

I don't believe it is a contradiction at all, US.  I believe that water Baptism is a “public declaration” of faith in Jesus where as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the saving power.

There is a whole thread on Baptism – I’ll try to find it and steer you in that direction so we have no “repeats” of discussions…
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God bless,
JN
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2004, 01:27:04 PM »

OK Servant - I found it:
Theology / General Theology / Re:Rebaptized: To Be Or Not To Be

It talks about Rabaptized - nut I believe it covers your questions comments - if not, feel free to "reawaken the thread" - it was a fun one!  Smiley
JN

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JPD
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2004, 03:14:37 PM »

Excuse, me but you said you were "saved by grace".  The verse I brought up says "baptism now saves you".  You said "I've been taught that the baptism in this verse refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit (as opposed to water)."

So instead of being "saved by grace" now you say according to 1 Peter 3:21 you are "saved by spiritual baptism"  Could you clarify this confusion?

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

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JudgeNot
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2004, 03:27:50 PM »

No excuse needed.  Grin

To me, being saved by grace and being baptized in the Holy Spirit happen concurrently.  When one accepts Jesus as savior, the Holy Spirit enters the heart – and WHAM! one is saved by grace.  

Maybe I am guilty of simplifying the “process” too much – but by taking all scripture as a whole, rather than independently dissecting each verse of scripture, it is the conclusion I’ve been taught, and one I personally agree with.

Of course – that is one of the reasons I’m at c-unite – because other’s teachings interest me, and I always learn something new.  
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JPD
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2004, 05:43:09 PM »

Okay, let me get this straight.  First, you say you are saved by grace, then you say “No, I am saved by grace AND baptism of the holy spirit.”  (You must have forgotten to put 1 Peter 3:21 on your orginal list).  The Scriptures say there is one baptism and you say there are two:  the Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is the saving power; and  Baptism for a “public declaration” of  faith in Jesus (of which you never gave me chapter or verse to prove eithers existence – 2 Cor 13:1)

Now you say “To me, being saved by grace and being baptized in the Holy Spirit happen concurrently. When one accepts Jesus as savior, the Holy Spirit enters the heart – and WHAM! one is saved by grace.”

You said you received the Holy Spirit concurrently with your spiritual baptism and Christ received the Holy Spirit subsequent to His baptism.

(Concurrent:  happening at the same time; subsequent: following after. Merriam Webster Dictionary)

Matthew 3:16 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.

In fact, if you look at Acts 2:38-40, the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, not concurrently.  This cannot be your “public baptism”, since the men were asking “what shall we do?”:

Acts 2:38-40 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

You never mentioned anything about repentance, either. (That is not surprising since you forgot to mention the baptism of the holy spirit, also) Yet the apostles said the men had to repent and be baptised to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  Since “and” is important to your “saved by grace and spiritual baptism” the word “and” must be just as important here, also.  Why?  Because the word “and “ is used to connect other words together, such as repentance and baptism. Repentance + Baptism = Saved.

(And:  used to indicate connection or addition esp, of items within the same class or type or join words or phrases of the same grammatical rank or function.- Merriam Webster)

If we look elsewhere where the word “and” is connecting words in the same thought to the word “saved” we go to:

Matt 16:15-16 - and he said to them, `Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation; he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.

Here the word “and” connects the words “Believes” and “Baptised”.  Believes + Baptised = Saved.

Mark 16:15-16     Believes + Baptised = Saved.
Acts 2:38-40      Repents + Baptised = Saved
1 Peter 3:21      Baptism = Saves

Reduced to common denominators,  we have how we are to be saved by Grace:

Believes + Repents + Baptised = Saved.

See JN, that is the advantage of using Scripture to prove Scripture.
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Petro
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2004, 08:25:09 PM »

Could you explain this verse to me.  I know there are no contradictions in the Scriptures, since they are inspired by God, so why do the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you"?

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

unworthy servant,

Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone.

Maybe not...

However, I am left wondering want your point is??

Is water baptism the issue??

you said:

Quote
In fact, if you look at Acts 2:38-40, the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, not concurrently.  This cannot be your “public baptism”, since the men were asking “what shall we do?”:

If ........................ the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and (water) baptism (which was for the remission of sins), then the receiving of the Holy Spirit is that baptism spoken of by John the Baptist at Jh 1:33;

"The man on whom you see the Spirit comedown and remain is HE (emphasis mine) who will baptize with the Holy Spirit."  reffering to Jesus.

So, what we wind up with for the Jews is two (2)baptisms, and, .......... only one saves;  the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, this is why 1 Peter 3:21, states it is;

"not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "

Quote
Acts 2:38-40 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is why Cornelius a gentile together with his household, were baptized with water susbsequent to the Holy Spirit Baptism.

The water baptism, was not for salvation, since it is clear they already showed fruit of having been saved, it was for a testominy.

So let's clear the matter up, this way;

Water Baptism does not save!     On the other hand;

1 Peter 3:21   (Holy Spirit) Baptism = Saves


Do you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

« Last Edit: February 10, 2004, 10:20:25 PM by Petro » Logged

aw
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2004, 11:34:45 PM »

Looks like the ilk of BAPTISMAL REGENERATION may be raising its ugly head.(The doctrine and not the person)

It all starts with Mk 16:16- once that is removed the entire house of cards comes falling down. Then they will go to Acts 2:38 which hinges on the translation of a single preposition "eis." Next we will have Acts 22:16. And then they go to the 1 Peter 3:21 passage. Folks, that is not even a complete passage! It is obvious that it was the ARK that saved them. They were going through the WATERS of judgment and not water baptism.

If we are going to interpret scripture in this fashion, then we would have to go sell all that we have and give it to the poor to be saved.

But not only so, we would all have to get pregnant and delived because it say we are saved through childbirth.

It is BY grace THROUGH faith in the PERSON named Jesus. It is His death, burial, and resurrection for our sins and justification. (1 Cor 15:1-3)

aw
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Petro
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2004, 04:02:47 AM »

aw,

You are right, there is no water mentioned in1 Cor 15:1-3.

Neither is there at Col 2;

12  Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Key words emboldened above..

Jesus asked his disciples at;

Mk 10
38  ................Ye know not what ye ask; can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39  ...........Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drinkof; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.

And all this He said, after being baptized in water by John the Baptist.

So clearly water baptism was not in view when he spoke these words at Mk 10, to His disciples.

Christians ought to be water baptised, but to teach one MUST be water baptised to be saved, is strechting it a might.

It is clear to me, Jews needed to be water baptized for a testimony, while gentiles who believe and desire to be do so because of the inward testimony they desire to show forth to the world.

Take the ethiopian eunuch, why did he ask to be baptized, after Philip preached Jesus to Him (Acts 9:35-36) his own words testify to his faith in Jesus;

"And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God", because he believed it with his whole heart according to verse 37.

Is not this the testimony of a man who is saved, and Philip baptized him with water, but the Lord baptized him with the Holy Spirit; this man went away rejoicing because he received the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.

Final point;

Mark 16:16, makes a simple declaration of what will happen to the man that believes and is baptized with the Holy Spirit, men read more into this verse than they ought to.

It is at Mathew 28:19, that the Lord commands the eleven disciples to;

 "...teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and ofthe Holy Ghost"

I am not sure that both of these accounts are the same one, since the setting seems to be different, Mat 28, was in "Gallilee into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them."

While Mk 16, was while they;  "sat at meat with them."

Blessings,

Petro

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The Crusader
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2004, 04:28:29 AM »

The only TRUE gospel! It is a 100% FREE gift and all a sinful person can do is to RECEIVE it THROUGH faith. Faith is just the conduit/channel of the grace and that because it has NO MERIT. Faith stands in opposition to WORKS as all it does is TRUST completely in the Saviour.

Nicely stated and unbelievably, there are many Christians who do not have an understsanding of this concept. We cannot be effective witnesses until we know these truths.

Regards,

aw

Amen aw

Your friend and brother

The Crusader

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