By grace you have been saved.

[The Crusader]

Hi Unworthy;
I've been taught that the baptism in this verse refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit (as opposed to water).  When we willingly receive God's Grace through Christ's spilled blood - we also accept and are baptised in The Holy Spirit.
JN

Good, JN

[The Crusader]

Could you explain this verse to me.  I know there are no contradictions in the Scriptures, since they are inspired by God, so why do the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you"?

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

unworthy servant,

Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone.

Maybe not...

However, I am left wondering want your point is??

Is water baptism the issue??

you said:

In fact, if you look at Acts 2:38-40, the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, not concurrently.  This cannot be your “public baptism”, since the men were asking “what shall we do?”:

If ........................ the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and (water) baptism (which was for the remission of sins), then the receiving of the Holy Spirit is that baptism spoken of by John the Baptist at Jh 1:33;

"The man on whom you see the Spirit comedown and remain is HE (emphasis mine) who will baptize with the Holy Spirit."  reffering to Jesus.

So, what we wind up with for the Jews is two (2)baptisms, and, .......... only one saves;  the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, this is why 1 Peter 3:21, states it is;

"not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "

Acts 2:38-40 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is why Cornelius a gentile together with his household, were baptized with water susbsequent to the Holy Spirit Baptism.

The water baptism, was not for salvation, since it is clear they already showed fruit of having been saved, it was for a testominy.

So let's clear the matter up, this way;

Water Baptism does not save!     On the other hand;

1 Peter 3:21   (Holy Spirit) Baptism = Saves


Do you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

Some Light for unworthy servent, thanks Petro

[The Crusader]

All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by one divine baptism (I Cor. 12:13). By this one baptism every mem­ber of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. In the light of the statement concerning the “one baptism” in Ephesians 4:5, the statements con­cerning baptism in Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3, 4, and Paul's statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel," we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace.

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<))><

[unworthy servant]

The Crusader said "unworthy servant, Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone.  Maybe not..."

When Priscilla and Aquila heard Apollos, they knew the proper answer before they talked to him.  And they "explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Acts 18:24-26 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian  by birth, an  eloquent man, came to Ephesus;  and he was mighty in the Scriptures.  This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the  baptism of John;  and he  began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla  and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the  way of God more accurately.

I saw the topic which said "By grace you have been saved."  Jn said he was saved by grace and spiritual baptism.  Shouldn't the topic have said "By grace and spiritual baptism you have been saved."?

Now I have a question for you, the same one asked to Christ:  "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"

Luke 13:23-30 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,  "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.'  "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'  "In  that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.  "And they will  come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.  "And behold, some  are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not  everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART  FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved?  No. (This one is a Rhetorical question)

[The Crusader]

The Crusader said "unworthy servant, Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone.  Maybe not..."

When Priscilla and Aquila heard Apollos, they knew the proper answer before they talked to him.  And they "explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Acts 18:24-26 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian  by birth, an  eloquent man, came to Ephesus;  and he was mighty in the Scriptures.  This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the  baptism of John;  and he  began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla  and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the  way of God more accurately.

I saw the topic which said "By grace you have been saved."  Jn said he was saved by grace and spiritual baptism.  Shouldn't the topic have said "By grace and spiritual baptism you have been saved."?

Now I have a question for you, the same one asked to Christ:  "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"

Luke 13:23-30 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,  "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.'  "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'  "In  that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.  "And they will  come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.  "And behold, some  are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not  everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART  FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved?  No. (This one is a Rhetorical question)

I Quoted Petro

[unworthy servant]

The Crusader said "I Quoted Petro"

Sorry, I stand corrected.

[Petro]

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not  everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART  FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

unworthy servant,

The Lord makes it clear only those who do "the will of my father will enter (the kingdom of heven)."

And clearly it does not depend on any other work.

If a man believes to the saving of the soul, it is because God has done His work in that man, isn't this what Jesus taught those who asked Him;

Jhn 6
28  ..............What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


This is the only explanation, that explains how men who never had an interest in God or the things of God, believe in God.

If you have another, lets hear it..

So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved?  No. (This one is a Rhetorical question)

This not rhetorical at all it is a dumb, question.

I have heard some go as far as asking; "the devils even believe, are they saved?"; such questions only engender strife, and usually are put forth by those who, desire to advance unbiblical teachings, as though they have received some mysterious revelation, not made known to others.

The fact is they ask such questions, in light of the not knowing the word of God. As Jesus said, "ye do error not knowing the scriptures" Mat 22:29

Jesus answers this for himself; He says NOT ALL who say LORD, LORD. Mat 7:21

Mat 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Only those whom the Son reveals the Father to, can begin to even contemplate doing the Father's will.

These will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world: (Mat 25:34)

The one baptism that matters is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Water Baptism is important as an outward testimony to others, of an inward cleansing.

Blessings,
Petro
 

[unworthy servant]

Petro said "This not rhetorical at all it is a dumb, question."

rhetorical -1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>

Actually, I placed an answer "No" there just because whenever I did ask it, no one answered.  It is actually is rhetorical without the "No" since Christ does answer the question in the verse that all the "believers" who called upon the name of the Lord will not be saved.  These people believed the lie instead of the truth.  In their mind the lie was the truth .

2 Thess 2:10-11 and with all the deception of wickedness for those  who perish, because they did not receive the love of the  truth so as to be saved.   For this reason God will  send upon them a  deluding influence so that they will believe what  is false,  in order that they all may be judged  who did  not believe the truth, but took  pleasure in wickedness.

Since you thought the fits question was dumb then I have no dout you will feel the same about the next.  

If everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, then why wasn't Phaorah saved?

Exodus 9: 27 Then Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, " I have sinned this time; the LORD is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones.

Ex 7:3 - "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Romans 9:17-22  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR  THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT  THE WHOLE EARTH."  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens  whom He desires.  You  will say to me then, "Why  does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O  man, who answers  back to God? The  thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?  Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for  honorable use and another for  common use?  What  if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience  vessels of wrath prepared  for destruction?

Who do the will of God? - the vessels of mercy who:

 Believe + Repent + Baptism (by immersion) = Saved.

Ro 8:30 - and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(NAS)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (KJV)

[Petro]

nworthy,

First it was ;

Mark 16:15-16     Believes + Baptised = Saved.
Acts 2:38-40      Repents + Baptised = Saved
1 Peter 3:21      Baptism = Saves

Now you have added to it;

Believe + Repent + Baptism [by immersion] = Saved.

What verses is your final version quoting??  The NWT?

You can't prove a thing from where you sit..
that water baptism saves.

Pipe dreams of a dreamer, ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

Petro

[MalkyEL]

[LITV]  1 Peter 3:21 ¶ Which antitype now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who going into Heaven is at the right of God, the angels, and authorities, and powers being subjected to Him).

[MKJV] 1 Peter 3:21 ¶ which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.

[Unknown Version quoted by Unworthy]  1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Within the contest of this verse, is the fact that Jesus saves and in Him is the baptism of salvation.   The order of words in the original Greek - here in English [based on the Bynzantine or Textus Receptus manuscripts - about 5,ooo] is:  which also us antitype now saves baptism, not of flesh putting away if (the) filth, but conscience of a good an answer toward God, through (the) resurrection of Jesus.   In other words, salvation is not getting cleansed in water, but belief in Him as the resurrected Jesus [Greek - Iesous - God is salvation]

 Jesus said that salvation comes from regeneration of Spirit and Water [John 3].  He is the Living Water.  He is Spirit.  His baptism of Spirit was "upon" Him - which pointed to His anointing to heal and deliver [Luke 4 - He was anointed = Christ or Messiah].  He is Spirit, being God in the flesh.

[JudgeNot]

Malky said:

He is Spirit, being God in the flesh.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I'll keep this fairly vague since all is not confirmed. Someone is no longer with us. I had no idea there was any cult believing the Apostle Paul was the anti-Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

BEP,

Well, this is good news; and good riddance.

As a closing point on this subject.

I might also add, to what has been said, that the water mentioned for this baptism (which ultimately saves) is prophecied at Ezek 36:24-26

Note the word clean, as in water..

24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The word clean in this verse of scripture used two times is the Hebrew word tahowr or tahor  #2889, and is used to denote ceremonially clean or pure, it used and can be seen more clearly defined as pure  and when used to define pure from transgression and sin, it has nothing to do with water,

Note;

Pro 30
12  There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

In the above verse, the word pure is the same word #2889 used in Ezek 36:25, and it is emphasizing being made pure which would be "washed from their filthiness"  speaking of their sins.

The second word clean in Ezek36:25, is the Hebrew word taher #2891 to purge or purify and it (the same word tanslated clean in Ezek 36:25) is used as the word pure at;

Prov 20
 8  A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
9  Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

But Job 4:17, gives a better look at the word;

Job 4
17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?


So then, the word clean at Ezek 36:25, which God says He will spirnkle on his people and cleanse them of all their filthiness, and idols, refers, not to physical water, since in this world there is no pure water, which can regenerate and wash away all sin, and purify the soul.

So in the end, It is two things, which cleanses away sin and purifies those that come to God for cleansing;

1.  The answer to God of a good conscious, purifies the soul. (1 Pet 1:22)

2,  And, the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost9 Tiuts 3:5); is what saves us, and will give life to our mortal bodies  (Rom 8:11)

This is the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

As MalkyEL, has stated;

Within the contest of this verse, is the fact that Jesus saves and in Him is the baptism of salvation.  The order of words in the original Greek - here in English [based on the Bynzantine or Textus Receptus manuscripts - about 5,ooo] is:  which also us antitype now saves baptism, not of flesh putting away if (the) filth, but conscience of a good an answer toward God, through (the) resurrection of Jesus.  In other words, salvation is not getting cleansed in water, but belief in Him as the resurrected Jesus [Greek - Iesous - God is salvation

Way to go Malky....



Blessings,

Petro

[MalkyEL]

Nice post, Pedro!  It really impelled me to dig into the aspect of the blood of Jesus and a couple of other verses that we have always "attached" to water baptism, but in context to these other verses, may have a deeper meaning.

Definitely not to dismiss the importance of water baptism, which is a command and imperative for one's spiritual life.

There is quite a bit of scripture here, but necessary for the full impact of our redemption in the blood of Jesus.  The Eph 4:5 text "one baptism" in connjunction with 1 Peter 3:21 refers to this whole picture of Jesus being our baptism, when you compile the texts together for an overall picture, imho.

Eph 5:25   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:4   But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior;
7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Rom 6:3   Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:9   For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority,
11 in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead.

Eph 4:4   There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in you all.

Col 1:12   ¶ giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light,
13 who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins;
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Eph 1:3   ¶ Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ,
4 even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace in which He favored us in the One having been loved,
7 , in whom we have redemption through His bloodthe remission of deviations, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding,

Heb 9:11 ¶ But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
12 nor through the blood of goats and of calves, but through His own blood, He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh,
14 by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!15 ¶ And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
16 For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.
17 For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.
18 From which neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
19 For when every command had been spoken according to Law by Moses to all the people, having taken the blood of the calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God enjoined to you." Ex. 24:8
21 And he likewise sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the service vessels with the blood.
22 And almost all things are purified by blood according to the Law; and apart from shedding of blood no remission occurs.
23 ¶ Then it was needful for the figures of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter into the Holy of Holies made by hands, types of the true things, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf,
25 not that He should often offer Himself even as the high priest enters into the Holy of Holies year by year with blood of others;
26 since He must often have suffered from the foundation of the world. But now once for all, at the completion of the ages, He has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment;
28 so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. Isa. 53:12

Rev 5:7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.
8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign over the earth.

[Petro]

malkyEL,

My eyes light up, when I see scriptures that sound foreign to me.

Please tell me which scripture version you are quoting from.

Thank You,

Petro