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michael_legna
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2003, 09:13:34 AM » |
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What Catholics Don’t Know About Salvation They do not know the meaning and relationship of justification, sanctification and glorification in salvation. In Roman Catholic theology, justification and sanctification are not distinct but have similar meanings and thus interchangeable.
There you go extrapolating again. When things are similar they are not interchangeable. That is why those two terms are different words in the English language. Both are part of a process of becoming holy. For a Roman Catholic this process begins at water baptism and extends through purgatory. According to The Pocket Catholic Dictionary, justification "is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven." "Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy" (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 1992). It is a process whereby good works are necessary to gain and maintain a right standing before God. "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema" (Canon 9 of the Council of Trent).
Nothing you quote here contradicts any scripture, however what you say next is your extrapolation (again done wrongly) does contradict scripture but luckily it is not the Catholic position. It is merely your mistaken representation of the Catholic position. The Catholic Church states that the grace of justification comes, not through faith but through the sacraments, beginning with baptism. The sacraments conform Catholics to the righteousness of God.
No, what Catholics teach is that salvation is by grace, a free gift of God, that we accept through faith – which must be coupled to works to be a true faith. This faith can die and we can loose our salvation if we do not keep it alive with proper works. In effect we throw away the free gift. The perseverance of the saints is through works that perfect faith and make it a living faith. These works are many but they do include the obedience to the sacraments established by Christ. Catholics are taught they can then merit the graces needed for the attainment of eternal life through the sacraments, good works and obeying the law (CCC, 2027). Catholics commit a sin if they presume they can be glorified without merit (2091, 2092).
It is handy to interpret something without displaying its contents – that allows you to really screw up the extrapolation without anyone catching you. But unfortunately I have these quotes at my finger tips so you can’t get away with that tactic with me. 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. See it says no one can merit the initial grace – the one necessary for eternal life. Yes we can merit additional graces that aid us in our walk. Those are the grace we desire when we covet the best gifts as in 1 Cor 12:31 2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption: By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy. This says that a Catholic sins if they despair in God ever helping them gain salvation – nothing in it about meriting salvation. 2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit). This is talking about presumption simply laying out the two types. It does not say that the first type is proper for it is not. Man should not presume upon his own capacities. He should and must presume on God saving him. Nothing in any of these about meriting salvation |
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Matt 5:11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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michael_legna
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2003, 09:15:04 AM » |
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The Roman Catholic Chruch teaches that Jesus was the Christ, the annointed of God, who became man and was crucified for our sins, arose from the dead and ascended into heaven. The Roman Catholic Church also teaches that the only way to be saved is through the free gift offered by God's grace through a living faith (which by its very nature is dependent on works).
That sounds like the definition of Christian to me.
Only in your dreams Jesus was the Christ, the anointed of God, who became man Catechism 151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him. The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me." We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him. He was crucified Catechism 421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." Arose from the dead Catechism 445 After his Resurrection, Jesus' divine sonship becomes manifest in the power of his glorified humanity. He was "designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his Resurrection from the dead". The apostles can confess: "We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Ascended into heaven Catechism 631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens. Salvation through the free gift of grace through faith Catechism 35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason. As further prove you should know that Catholics also believe both The Apostles Creed and the more complete and more accurate Nicene Creed and say one or the other of them at Mass every Sunday. The Apostles Creed I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The Nicene Creed We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvartion he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We cknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. |
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Matt 5:11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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Brother Love
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2003, 09:20:03 AM » |
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Jesus said, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit [which is invisible] and truth" (John 4:24). After Jesus ascended into heaven, Paul said true worshippers are those "who worship in the Spirit of God" (Phil. 3:3). The eternal, immortal King is invisible to those on earth until He returns (1 Tim. 1:17). Christians are called to look on "the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor. 4:18). The Eucharistic god of the Catholic Church is thus a temporal god and a false Christ. Jesus warned us not to believe anyone who says, "Here is the Christ" (Mat. 24:23). Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, is now physically present at the right hand of the Father (Luke 22:69). He will not return to the earth until after the tribulation (Mat. 24:29-30). Clearly, the worship of the Eucharist is idolatry. To worship any image in the place of God provokes Him to anger. God has this to say to idolaters: "they have made Me jealous with what is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their idols" (Deut. 32:21). The Roman Catholic Church has "exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image " and "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" (Rom. 1:23-25).
RIGHT ON!!!!! I agree 100% Brother Love  |
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michael_legna
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2003, 10:23:36 AM » |
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Jesus is not and never was a victim. The Lord said: "I lay down My life…I lay it down on My own initiative" (John 10:17-18). Numerous references to Christ as the victim are found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: The victim is one and the same" (CCC, 1367).
Your vocabulary is way too limited. A victim is not always someone who is overcome by outside forces. A victim can be someone who willing makes themselves available to undergo an event. Merriam Webster defines it thus - Main Entry: vic•tim Pronunciation: 'vik-t&m Function: noun Etymology: Middle English vyctym, from Latin victima; perhaps akin to Old High German wIh holy Date: 15th century 1 : a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite 2 : one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <the schools are victims of the social system>: as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks> b : one that is tricked or duped <a con man's victim> Christ was adversely affected by God’s plan (even though it was His own). He even asked rhetorically if this cup might pass from Him. In this way he falls under the second definition like a school being victim of the socials system. They do so willingly as that is the system they promote. The point is that Christ’s willingness does not prohibit His role as victim unless you have an unsophisticated understanding of the term. Jesus does not appear every day in the form of a wafer to be worshipped and represented as a sacrifice. "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). "He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12).
Yet He is with us always until the end of the world. Matthew 28:20 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. And this is not the Holy Spirit the comforter, unless you are prepared to deny the trinity as they are separate person. How is Jesus still with us if not through the Eucharist. And in Revelations we see the altar for sacrifices, what is that for if all sacrifices have ceased? Why does Christ use the term for rememberance (as in do this in rememberance of me) that is a priestly term denoting sacrifice? Why does Paul warns us that we bring judgement and damnation upon ourselves if we eat unworthily if it is just a symbol? How can anyone risk damnation over a symbol? Jesus is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever. "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him" (Hebrews 7:25). Catholics reject the sufficiency of Christ’s atoning work by believing their good works and indulgences play a part in their salvation.
No that is a misrepresentation of what Catholics teach. Catholics teach that our good works and faith together are what is expected by God as the proper acceptance of the free gift of salvation. The works perfect and keep the faith alive. You really need to do more research before you make such obviously wrong claims. Jesus alone purifies sin. Purgatory does not exist. The teaching of it denies the cross work of Christ. Yet Rome dares to declare that purgatory is necessary because Jesus was unable to do what His word proclaims—to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (Titus 2:14). "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). Fire has no effect on sin. Only the blood of Jesus can cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
If that your interpretation is correct then what purification is going on in 1 Cor 3:11-15 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This trial after our works have ceased, after we are dead is what Catholics refer to as purgatory. In it we are purified – our unsatisfactory works are burnt away, our good works remain and we will receive crowns for them, but as the bad works are burned we SUFFER loss, yet it is clear this has nothing to do with salvation because that is based on the foundation we built upon. If we built upon Christ we are saved and even this purification cannot remove that. What do you see going on here if not a purification – that you claim is unnecessary |
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Matt 5:11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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Tibby
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2003, 04:00:48 PM » |
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Right on, mike!!!! 100% Agree   |
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Was there ever a time when Common sence was common?
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Tibby
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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2003, 04:06:24 PM » |
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Was there ever a time when Common sence was common?
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avemaria
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« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2003, 04:36:13 PM » |
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen
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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2003, 08:27:04 PM » |
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Definition of a Roman Catholic:
Someone who believes:
the present Roman Catholic church organization in Rome is Christ's one true church established in 33 A.D.
the Pope is a God-appointed head of the church on the earth.
the teachings and decrees of the Pope as equal to the Bible in authority.
the church as the infallible interpreter of scripture.
that tradition is equal to the Bible in authority.
There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic organ
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avemaria
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« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2003, 08:33:20 PM » |
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Was there a point somewhere in there? I think most of the other non-Catholics on this board are already aware of your point by point definition of a Roman Catholic.  |
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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen
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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2003, 08:37:13 PM » |
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No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!
Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)
"Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)
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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2003, 08:38:42 PM » |
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No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)
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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2003, 08:40:26 PM » |
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No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)
"Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)
"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
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