The Crucifix

[Jabez]

1.Well, there goes the peace. Thank a lot, Jabez, luv ya, bro. You really know how to lighten the mood!

2.Besides, the accusation of idol worship is a bit hollow coming from someone who named themselves after the Evangelical’s new fad idol, the Mantra of Jabez.

3."That is one black kettle, ain't it, pot?"

1.Sorry
2.All i was doing is showing what had happen before in the OT.I did not accuse anyone.I read Numbers and 1 Kings and i can see how that can happen to the cross,cant you?Yes the username i used is Jabez from a book i read,i couldnt think of any other name,but i will change it if you would like?
3.Not sure what you mean?
3.

[Tibby]

Sorry man, the way we are reading it, it looking like a pretty harsh stab. But you say you didn’t mean anything by it, I believe you. Sorry for the mix up.

However, I still disagree with your definition of worship. I do not believe standing in front of something is worshiping. The object of worship isn’t on this plan of existence, so why should the things that surround us when we worship matter? I would venture to say it is our hearts, not our knees, that bow when we worship Jesus.

[Petro]

Sorry man, the way we are reading it, it looking like a pretty harsh stab. But you say you didn’t mean anything by it, I believe you. Sorry for the mix up.

However, I still disagree with your definition of worship. I do not believe standing in front of something is worshiping. The object of worship isn’t on this plan of existence, so why should the things that surround us when we worship matter? I would venture to say it is our hearts, not our knees, that bow when we worship Jesus.

tibby,

There you go again...blowing smoke.

Posture has everything to do, with worship, since the posture manifest what one believes in ones heart, when you dip your fingers into holy water to sign of the cross yourself, light a candle, or burn incense, it is done in a way, the can be compared to bowing or bending the kneww, it matters little what you say , you don't see in the posture, because you know you do it as a result of your obedience to your heart, ...it simply is a form of worship...period.

You can deny it all you want, Christians see this for what it really is, and your denial of it shows your unwillingness to deal with it.

The cross is an image, just as pictures, and statutes, and the bowing or bending of the knee  directed at these things is what is called  worship by Gods word. You can say your bowing to the memory the cross conjures up in your thoughts, however the fact is your posture is directed the image contrary to the commandment.

It doesn't matter what you call it, or wish to define it as, if God  says it is worship, this is what it is.

Here is a verse, where God spoke;

Rom 11
2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God reserves worship to himself not His image nor any other thing which represents him, pure and simple...


Blessings,

Petro

[Tibby]

So Petro, by blowing smoke, do you mean…

Yes, the outward expression and all that, I know. But the point I’m trying to make is Bowing and Worship are not synonymous. Bowing to something doesn’t mean you are worshiping it, and I having seen otherwise.

Rom 11:4, bowing is symbolic of worship, but I can still point out places in the bible when Bowing isn’t worship. Granted, there are time when people bow as a sign of worship, but not always. I think I would know if I worship the image of Jesus over Jesus. I mean, with the millions of people in the country who say things just as you do, don’t you think I would have taken a step back by now, and examined my heart and the heart of the fellow worshippers, to see what our focus is? And do you think, if my conclusion would have been. I worship the cross, that I would have stopped?

[Petro]

So Petro, by blowing smoke, do you mean…

Yes, the outward expression and all that, I know. But the point I’m trying to make is Bowing and Worship are not synonymous. Bowing to something doesn’t mean you are worshiping it, and I having seen otherwise.

Rom 11:4, bowing is symbolic of worship, but I can still point out places in the bible when Bowing isn’t worship. Granted, there are time when people bow as a sign of worship, but not always. I think I would know if I worship the image of Jesus over Jesus. I mean, with the millions of people in the country who say things just as you do, don’t you think I would have taken a step back by now, and examined my heart and the heart of the fellow worshippers, to see what our focus is? And do you think, if my conclusion would have been. I worship the cross, that I would have stopped?

tibby,

I can still point out places in the bible when Bowing isn’t worship.

This discussion, has centered around bowing to an image made of stick or stone, not any living person, you would be hard pressed to show me any verse, where anyone other than heathens bowing to an image, or an idol fashioned in the form of an beast or men, or someother image considered a god.

If there are some verse or passages??, I say post them.. and quit talking in circles..

Most psuedo catholics today only keep the doctrines the Rcc church teaches that appeal to them, it is doubtful they can tell the difference between Worship and worship.

God seeks men to Worship him, in Spirit and in Truth (Jhn 4:23-24)

We read, at:

Numbers 25,
1  And Israel abode in gotcha2tim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2  And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3  And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

Bowng is only one position which is considered worship by God, at Ex 32:19, dancing in the presence of the image of a golden calf, was considered an abomination, that day 3000 men died (vs 28)

Burning incense was the reason the bronze serpent commanded to be made by the Lord at (Num 21: was destroyed at (2 Kings 18:4).

I am confident enough to say from reading these accounts, that these people who bowed, danced and burnt incense felt exactly the way you do, according to them they were not worshipping.

In relation to God, they are right they were NOT worshipping God, but they did worship the images, according to Gods Word.



Blessings,

Petro

[michael_legna]

I know the argument is always made to defend the worship of these, by those defending what is done, by claiming protestants pray in a sanctuary which may have a symbol or stained glass depiction of an angel or some other personage, but I must point out the difference is not the symbol but the expression of what is considered worship of the object.

My understanding is that worship has to be intentional.  You can not offer worship by accident.

I know people who drive Mercury cars but they don't worship the symbol on them even when they are polishing it.

I know people who put out cornucopias at thanksgiving even though they do not worship the good of plenty through it.

I know that the Jewish temple was adorned with cherubims, oxen and lions (1 Kings 7:27-39) yet they did not worship these even though the prayed in the temple.  These items were meant for symbols/reminders to sustain focus or aid in reverence as the worshipers of God prayed.  Much as the phylacteries were.

Catholics who properly follow the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (as you yourself admit - since they claim not to worship images) do not worship statues, even the crucifix.  The Roman Catholic Church does not teach them to and the proper intent is not to worship.  (That is not to say that some Catholics do not understand this and blur the line by assigning more significance than they should to objects of focus.  But that is a personal fault and not a flaw in the Catholic doctrine.)

The images and such that are there, are just like an empty cross, they are to aid in focusing and as a reminder.  Catholics are not like some barbaric tribe who assign the concept of real power and life to inanimate objects.  They understand the man made objects have no power of their own, that the true power resides with God.  So the only intent is to give glory to that God, not to worship in anyway these symbols.  Without intent there can be no worship. Ergo - Catholics do not worship statues.

[Tibby]

My understanding is that worship has to be intentional.  You can not offer worship by accident.

Yeah, that he said!

[avemaria]

I still to this day find those who think Catholic worship statues is just plain silly.  

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them or Christ on the Cross.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.
When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: "In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it" (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

[Petro]

Christians, do not have to be ignorant about this matter of whether Rome teaches images are to be honored, venerated and  worshipped,  this is the 21st Century and because of computers is the information age.

Images and statues are placed in Catholic churches for the express purpose of worshipping them;

You be the judge, if this is not so;;

http://www.biblebelievers.net/FalseTeaching/kjcromeh.htm

HERESIES EXPOSED
A Brief Critical Examination in the Light of the Holy Scriptures of some of the Prevailing Heresies and False Teachings of Today
Compiled by
WM. C. IRVINE
Roman Catholicism
By Wm. C. Irvine



Idolatry
Our first charge is that she is an IDOLATROUS CHURCH. But it may be asked, Does Rome really teach the worship of idols? Archdeacon Sinclair, writing on Image Worship, said:-
The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent decrees that the images of Christ and the Virgin Mary, and of the other saints, are especially to be had and retained in the churches, and that honor and veneration are to be paid to them.
From the Protestant Alliance Magazine, July, 1922, we cull the following:-

The Creed of Pope Pius IV teaches thus:-
"I most firmly assert that the image of the Christ, of the Mother of God, ever Virgin, and also of the other saints ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent says:-

"It is lawful to have images in the church, and to give honor and worship unto them,"

Note the progression, from the decrees of the Council of Trent,  to what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says;
"honor and worship unto them"

Now, here is the condensed version of the Catholic churches version, together with Councils edicts together with the objections answered to these points being discussed:

Http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html

Part III The Decalogue
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT :
Veneration And Invocation Of Angels And Saints Not Forbidden By This Commandment
It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Angels
It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Saints
Objections Answered
The Honour And Invocation Of Saints Is Approved By Miracles
The Above Words Do Not Forbid All Images
They Forbid Idols And Representations Of The Deity
They Do Not Forbid Representations Of The Divine Persons And Angels
They Do Not Forbid Images Of Christ And The Saints
Usefulness Of Sacred Images
How The Sanction Contained In The Above Words Should Be Proposed

In each of the above sections, there are sub sections, which define the teachings point by point of the Roman Catholic churches position on each of these teachings, the quotes above have been slightly modified so that of the original Councils wording, do not impact the reader and soften the word, "worshipping" teaching that images are not only for due honor and veneration but,  for worshipping, also.  

The section which contains page 235, of the 25th Session  of the Council addressing this matter.


I am printing the exact words from the actual book containing the original document according to the author;

The Council of Trent
The canons and decrees of the sacred
and oecumenical Council of Trent,
Ed. and trans. J. Waterworth (London: Dolman, 1848)




 SESSION THE TWENTY-FIFTH,
Begun on the third, and terminated on the fourth, day of December, MDLXIII., being the ninth and last under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV.


ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

"Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed [Page 235] their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images."

So there you have it, does the RCC teach images may be worshipped??


Blessings,

Petro

[Tibby]

Good to know we are taking our information from a bias source that used both Catholic and anti-Catholic sources, Petro.

[avemaria]

Petro - Do you actually read what those anti-Catholic sites are telling you such and such a council said?  Or do you just copy from an anti-Catholic site and claim it to be true because some bigot says it is?  The quotes you copied from whatever anti-Catholic site - are wrong.  Anyone can go to the Catechism of the Council of Trent and do a "FInd word" and see that what you posted was out and out wrong.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/trentc.htmBut the pastor should not content himself with showing that it is lawful to have images in churches, and to pay them honour and respect, since this respect is referred to their prototypes. He should also show that the uninterrupted observance of this practice down to the present day has been attended with great advantage to the faithful, as may be seen in the work of Damascene on images, and in the seventh General Council, the second of Nice.

I could go on and DEBUNK all the other lies you posted, but I am sleepy...Anyway, anyone who wants to do a little research can go to google and find out these are lies and misquotes if they want to or they can believe years of anti-Catholic hatred if they want.  Purely their choice.  The Catechisms are all online.

[Petro]

Well show the information given you, it isn't correct.

I can here you talking, but I say prove its anti catholic...

Anything that doesn't agree with you is anti catholic, you have no integrity, unless you can show us the errors.

And we are supposed to take your word at face value?

Come on..........get serious.


Petro

[Petro]

Good to know we are taking our information from a bias source that used both Catholic and anti-Catholic sources, Petro.

tibby,

Sheeeshshs!!!

Do you ever read anything before you engage tongue;

The Url I gave you is specifically for Parish Priest, this is the Roman Catholic Catechism, that is why it is a condensed article of the Council of Trent teaching of the 1st Commandment and observance and the uses of images.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html
CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT FOR PARISH PRIESTS

You and ave, need to engage the brains before typing responses.


Wha so matta you?



Petro

[michael_legna]

Christians, do not have to be ignorant about this matter of whether Rome teaches images are to be honored, venerated and  worshipped,  this is the 21st Century and because of computers is the information age.

Images and statues are placed in Catholic churches for the express purpose of worshipping them;

You be the judge, if this is not so;;

Idolatry
Our first charge is that she is an IDOLATROUS CHURCH. But it may be asked, Does Rome really teach the worship of idols? Archdeacon Sinclair, writing on Image Worship, said:-
The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent decrees that the images of Christ and the Virgin Mary, and of the other saints, are especially to be had and retained in the churches, and that honor and veneration are to be paid to them.

From the Protestant Alliance Magazine, July, 1922, we cull the following:-

The Creed of Pope Pius IV teaches thus:-
"I most firmly assert that the image of the Christ, of the Mother of God, ever Virgin, and also of the other saints ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them."

Honor and veneration are not worship.  Besides every Catholic understands that the honor and worship is not directed at the statue but to the saint the statue represents.  Even then the honor we give them is far below the worship we reserve for God.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent says:-

"It is lawful to have images in the church, and to give honor and worship unto them,"

Note the progression, from the decrees of the Council of Trent,  to what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says;
"honor and worship unto them"

I would like to see the full quote on this one as I did a words search in my copy of the Catechism and could not find this quote anywhere.  Please provide the full quote and a reference, for I suspect it is phony.

Now, here is the condensed version of the Catholic churches version, together with Councils edicts together with the objections answered to these points being discussed:

Http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html

Part III The Decalogue
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT :
Veneration And Invocation Of Angels And Saints Not Forbidden By This Commandment
It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Angels
It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Saints
Objections Answered
The Honour And Invocation Of Saints Is Approved By Miracles
The Above Words Do Not Forbid All Images
They Forbid Idols And Representations Of The Deity
They Do Not Forbid Representations Of The Divine Persons And Angels
They Do Not Forbid Images Of Christ And The Saints
Usefulness Of Sacred Images
How The Sanction Contained In The Above Words Should Be Proposed

Here again nothing about worship, honor and veneration.  The usefulness of the images is in focusing our devotion.  It is not magical power they have to be useful in intercession.

In each of the above sections, there are sub sections, which define the teachings point by point of the Roman Catholic churches position on each of these teachings, the quotes above have been slightly modified so that of the original Councils wording, do not impact the reader and soften the word, "worshipping" teaching that images are not only for due honor and veneration but,  for worshipping, also.  

Interesting claim that the terms have been softened but one wonders why you would purposely modify quotes.  I would like to see the originals here too.  Maybe then your claim that they have been softened on the concept of worshipping.

The section which contains page 235, of the 25th Session  of the Council addressing this matter.

I am printing the exact words from the actual book containing the original document according to the author;

The Council of Trent
The canons and decrees of the sacred
and oecumenical Council of Trent,
Ed. and trans. J. Waterworth (London: Dolman, 1848)

 SESSION THE TWENTY-FIFTH,
Begun on the third, and terminated on the fourth, day of December, MDLXIII., being the ninth and last under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV.

ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

"Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed [Page 235] their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images."

If you read the old English carefully in the area you bolded you see that the instruction is that they are NOT to be worshipped.  The area in question reads as follows: “and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; NOT that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them;”

(emphasis mine)

This kind of sloppy scholarship is always behind these claims.

So there you have it, does the RCC teach images may be worshipped??

No it does not.

[Petro]

michael

I posted the information in its entirety, the site I gave you is a Catholic site, not an anti-catholic as, these others have charged, clearly it is the condensed version of the Councils edicts, note, that this version is for "Parish Priests", presumbaly for instruction and execution of these decisions made.

It would help if you familiarize yourself with how to use the tools provided in the "quote" section, use the brackets to encapsulate that which is quoted thus;

all quotations go between these

, and then give your reply outside of these, it will make reading your posts much clearer and easier to read.

I would like to see the full quote on this one as I did a words search in my copy of the Catechism and could not find this quote anywhere.  Please provide the full quote and a reference, for I suspect it is phony.

I gave you both the catholic website which is a condensed version, even I see that it does not match the version, I printed from the reference at the end of my post, if you can't find it, How can you know what you know and say is true??

Here again nothing about worship, honor and veneration.  The usefulness of the images is in focusing our devotion.  It is not magical power they have to be useful in intercession.

You sound a little smarter the the ave, and tibby, but don't be like them, they are lazy, and would rather have themselves heard, than seek the information out, it is all there, you need to have your fingers do a little walking;  

For instance, plug yourself into the "fordam" website, scroll down to "Part III The Decalogue, then scroll to the sub sections posted for your review, lets take sub section;

The Above Words Do Not Forbid All Images

Let no one think that this Commandment entirely forbids the arts of painting, engraving or sculpture. The Scriptures inform us that God Himself commanded to be made images of Cherubim, and also the brazen serpent. The interpretation, therefore, at which we must arrive, is that images are prohibited only inasmuch as they are used as deities to receive adoration, and so to injure the true worship of God.

For instance, consider the "brazen Serpent" again,. It is true God commanded Moses to make the brazen (fiery) serpent (Num 21:, for the explicit purpose that anyone who was bitten by a serpent, could look upon it and live.  

However this "fiery serpent" which placed on a high pole had become and image to which incense was burned to.

For this very reason it was destroyed, because burning incense to it(2 Ki 18:4), was considered a form of worship, you can rationalize it anyway you want, the fact is, it was destroyed because it was used for something which was otherwise made for.

The case of images of sanits, angels, Jesus, Mary, the Cross, are specifically made by the Catholic church for the express purpose of praying to them, which is a form of worship, manifested by their position and attitude while performing this duty.

You can argue that the fiery serpent was not the object of the veneration and honer expressed by the burning of the incense in its presence, nevertheless the scriptures are carefull to tell us why it was destroyed.

I am fully convinced, those who say, we know what worship is or isn't !; are, those who really don't or can't tell, inspite of what is written in the 2d Commandment.

What obscures it for them is the fact that the second commandment says nothing about image or idol worship.

The Catholic churhces 2d commandment reads as follows:

"You shall not take name of the Lord your God in vain."(from; Duet 5:11)

Omitting verse 6-10, verse 5 says nothing of image or idol worship; it is simply the version recounted by Moses.

While the Gods own words spoken at Ex 20, give His commandmnets as written on the tablets of stone given to Moses;

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."  

As you can see, if forbidding image worship is not found in the commandments, it becomes easy to accept the word of of those considered more wiser and learned than ones self, which is what the unlettered do presentlty and did then.

If you read the old English carefully in the area you bolded you see that the instruction is that they are NOT to be worshipped.  The area in question reads as follows: “and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; NOT that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them;”

Not so, bowing, praying, burning incense to an image is a form of worship, forbidden by the second commandment.

tibby in blowing smoke, says I can give scripture which proves this and that, he never has, can you??


Blessings,

Petro