The Crucifix

[Symphony]

The Question of Salvation is a complex one,


Huh?  Okay, I agree that, like for the angels, it is a "mystery" as to why God offered his own perfect and righteous Son, for us--the Just, for the unjust.   And that is why God's chief angel, Lucifer--ever the ambitious Prosecutor, just couldn't deal with that at all, since once we sinned we were deserving the death sentence, and Lucifer just couldn't handle the forgiveness thing, so he an a third rebelled.  Okay, I see why that's maybe a "mystery"(known as, um, "love", something Lucifer/Satan is apparently clueless about  ).

But why complex?  He died for us.  A child can accept that.


But back to the minister thing, and being mature.  

Actually, what the chruch needs, are not only mature individuals, but servants.

"The first must be last", said Jesus.  We have to be servants, of the flock(in all their creaturely habits--- --*sigh*).

The ministry isn't the place to achieve one's ambitions.  If you're going there to do "great things for God", um, watch out for rude disappointment(hehe ).

[Tibby]

Yes, Sym, but he asked how the RCC views salvation, a definition spread out over 2,188 passages. The concept of Salvation isn’t complex, but the doctrine goes pretty deep. I wanted to give him a good answer, citing the catechism, but I was in to much of a rush for all of that. Well, lets get started.  Of course, we all know salvation is the forgiveness of sins and restoration of your relationship with the father (direct quote from Catechism glossary), through the blood sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus Christ. But, that part is a no brainer. You where talking about more details about the specific believes of he RCC, right? Well basically, Aw, I’m going to let the Catechism speak for it self. I‘ll list the passage number, and what it says, you can look it up, if you‘d like:

169- God alone gives salvation, of course. This is clearly stated for all to see, as the first sentence is “Salvation comes from God alone.”

830- The means of Salvation are Confession of faith, sacramental life, and an ordained ministry with apostolic succession.

1129- Sacraments of the New Convent, which are Baptism and Communion, are required. Transubstantiation is just the fancy name behind the Catholic’s belief of what happens in the “Mystery of the Eucharist.” But, lets not get into an anamnesis debate, I’m sick of hearing about it, lol. While partaking in the Lord’s Supper is required, believing in the transubstantiation theory is not. This is one instance of where the phrase “effective, but not valid.” comes in. It is all in 1362-1381 if you want to read about it. Doesn’t have much to do with Salvation, but it explains transubstantiation and why it is believed.

1257- This directly addresses the fact that Baptism is required. And., that is pretty much what it said: “Baptist is required for salvation”

1816- Faith is required. This one can get really confusing. Reading the passage alone would almost lead one to believe it is about Work being require, when in fact, it is the tail end of a 3 passage discretion of Faith.

This is the latest Edition, revised by Pope John Paul the II, scripture in text and citations, if you want them. You can find the full text online, I think. Just google it. The only problem with that is the online version may not have the scripture citations. And believe me, they are very important in understanding the Catholic point of view.

On a side note, 817-819 does a nice job explaining the Roman Catholic stance on Protestantism. Basically, they believe both sides of the original issue handled it very poorly, the Catholic Church being at fault for most of it, but both sides here wrong. However, the RCC doesn’t  see the sins as inherited, and views the communities resulting from these protests, and “accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.” To goes on to say “All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the lord.” They see not problem with Protestant salvation, and seek a unity among the Denominations. The catechism is kind of tricky to navigate. A lot of confusion comes from people trying to read and understand it on their own, without any kind of experience or aid from someone with knowledge of it. Even Catholics have a hard time! And this is an especially tricky topic. The word “Protestant” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Catechism, and there is no direct connection in the Sections on Salvation that address salvation in Protestant churches. You have to go to the section of Church Unity to find out about Protestantism. If I hadn’t read that passage just the other day, I wouldn’t have found it now! The Catechism only state Mary is required for salvation by those who take it out of context. The report of Mary’s worship has been great exaggerated. There are 2 passage people like to use when attacking the belief of Mary. 969 is a more popular one, and it talks about her in a manor that is talks about all saints, she is an intercessor, and prays that we do not lose our walk. And everyone forgets about 970, which explains that Mary’s function doesn’t diminish Jesus, but displays his power. The second one is 1172, which is nothing more then an explanation of why the Liturgical year has a small part sectioned off for Mary. This would not seem odd to any Catholic, or anyone else on a Liturgical system, because the point of the Liturgical year is to go thru the life of Christ, and being born of a Virgin (and being born PEROID) is an important factor in the human life cycle. But, I have to ask you to keep in mind not to judge all of us. Between the Roman Church, all Eastern Rites, the Byzantine Rite, the Polish Nation rite, and all the rest, the only one who believe in the Mary doctrine is the RCC. The rest of us think it foolishness. She say she wanted the lords will when the Angel asker her, big deal! She was like what, 14? 17? If a big glowing man showed up at my home and said I was going to get pregnant as a virgin, I’d do to scared to disagree or debate!!!!!!! lol

Ok, now that I covered the basics... Well, that was fun. Hope this was helpful, and not to vague. Let me know if you need clarification on anything.

Well said, Sym. I wish more people would get that, we are hear to serve. It is called “service” for that reason! The preacher and P&W are not the show. The whole sanctuary is God’s personal  show. God isn’t sitting in the balcony watching the Preacher in stage, he is sitting in Heaven watching all of us. Sunday morning is game day, and the Preacher isn’t the only player. People want the spirit of God in their church, well, he isn’t going to some to listen to the Preacher talk about something He already knows, and has been trying to get through our heads for ages. He is going to come to see all his Children. Service isn’t about you. That is why alter calls are AFTER service!  

[aw]

Does not the catechism #969 indicate that Mary is a necessary requirement for salvation?

aw

[Tibby]

Yes and no. 969, 494, 1172 all say yes, she is necessary for salvation, in the aspect that she gave birth to the God/man who would die so that we could be saved, and that she is constantly praying for the Church (Legend has it she has been doing that since the death of Jesus). But, she does not save us, the Catechism flatly says that only God can do that.

Of course, I’m not counting Pope John Paul’s immaculate conseption issues. He is a great man, but all these years without a girl does some strange things to a guy! lol

[aw]

Okay and thanks for responding.

Would your view be that John 3:16, Eph 2:8-10 and 1 Cor 15:1-4 contains sufficient scripture for the Holy Spirit to bring about the new birth?

aw

[Symphony]

I read yours Tibby, or at leas tparts of it.

It's all quite extensive.

[Tibby]

Aw- Yes, I think those verse, especially John 3:16 definite principles and attitudes that make a true Christian what he is. Personally, I preferred John 3:16/Roman Road combo, but that works as well.

Sym- I know, I looked at what I had written and thought “Oh no, I’m turning into Petro!” I wonder how many people are going to read the full thing, or just do what I do with Petro... and pretend like he didn’t post it. I’m saving that in case I have a report to turn in an hour before class

[avemaria]

Back to the original post.  I see Christ crucified on the cross and am reminded of what He did for me.  At my Parish we have a Crucifix behind the high alter and Christ's knees are bloody and He has wounds from His scourging.  I cannot think of a better way to reflect on His true Sacrifice for me.  How easy it is to gaze upon an empty cross and not fully appreciate the pain and suffering He went through to save a lowly soul as me.

[Ambassador4Christ]

Back to the original post.  I see Christ crucified on the cross and am reminded of what He did for me.  At my Parish we have a Crucifix behind the high alter and Christ's knees are bloody and He has wounds from His scourging.  I cannot think of a better way to reflect on His true Sacrifice for me.  How easy it is to gaze upon an empty cross and not fully appreciate the pain and suffering He went through to save a lowly soul as me.

Why sure you do

Benny Hinn is that you

[Tibby]

I think you’re confusing Catholic with Evangelicals, A4C  

Well said, ave.

[Jabez]

Back to the original post.  I see Christ crucified on the cross and am reminded of what He did for me.  At my Parish we have a Crucifix behind the high alter and Christ's knees are bloody and He has wounds from His scourging.  I cannot think of a better way to reflect on His true Sacrifice for me.  How easy it is to gaze upon an empty cross and not fully appreciate the pain and suffering He went through to save a lowly soul as me.

Why sure you do

Benny Hinn is that you

Remindes me of Moses in Numbers 21

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

****************
Centuries later, the bronze serpent was destroyed because the Israelites had turned it into an idol, in violation of The Second Commandment:

[avemaria]

Explain to me how gazing upon my Savior on the cross and thanking Him for what He did for me is the same as worshipping an idol?

Are you saying that worshipping Jesus is like idol worship or are you saying that the metal or wood of which the likeness of Jesus was carved is an idol?

You better take down all your photographs, because gazing upon them and smiling at happy memories should be classified as idol worship then!!

You people are so entrenched in anti-Catholic rhetoric you don't even realize the fact that you make NO SENSE whatsoever!

[Tibby]

Well, there goes the peace. Thank a lot, Jabez, luv ya, bro. You really know how to lighten the mood!

Besides, the accusation of idol worship is a bit hollow coming from someone who named themselves after the Evangelical’s new fad idol, the Mantra of Jabez.

"That is one black kettle, ain't it, pot?"

[Jabez]

1.Explain to me how gazing upon my Savior on the cross and thanking Him for what He did for me is the same as worshipping an idol?

2.Are you saying that worshipping Jesus is like idol worship or are you saying that the metal or wood of which the likeness of Jesus was carved is an idol?

3.You better take down all your photographs, because gazing upon them and smiling at happy memories should be classified as idol worship then!!

4.You people are so entrenched in anti-Catholic rhetoric you don't even realize the fact that you make NO SENSE whatsoever!

1.Read Numbers 21,Then look at 2 Kings 18:1-6
2.Worshiping Jesus is Awsome!Looking at a statue and worshiping i feel is wrong.(idol worship)
3.I have no photos of GOD or Jesus,i didnt know there were any real ones.If you mean family photos,i do not hold them as GOD.I do not worship photos.
4.What didnt make sense?Iam not anti-catholic.I meant no offense.
**************

[Tibby]

That is Ave, not "Tibby"

But, I take issue with number 2. It seems you imply looking at something and worshiping is a sin? If you look at something while you praise, it is praising that? What is doing the worship? The Mind, or the body? Your whole being. I've been look it doesn't matter where you worship God. I've been told youcan do it at school, at work, in the car. But you are all telling me I can't do it in front of a Picture? Are you telling me worship is limited to that things that suround us while we worship?