The Crucifix

[2nd Timothy]

Hey guys,

Actually, I did play football in high school!     So I can relate to this idea very well.   If we must use this sort of analogy to make our point so be it...

Jesus stood in the pocket patiently, knowing the hit was coming, thus, giving his team the touchdown pass of ressurection.    Not bad huh?  
Althought the team had a victory, it could not have been done without him standing firm in the pocket and taking the hit.  In my view, the play of the game!  

Now that we have had our analogies, lets see how the bible describes it...

Rev 5:6-9
6  Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
7  He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
8  And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9  And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
(NIV)

Obviously this play made the highlight reels in Revelation.

I will gracfully bow out of this discussion here.  If one feels that a crucifix is wrong, then I would recommend that person refrain from having one.  Others will not feel the same conviction.  Scripture does not indicate either way on this.  If its a thing of worship, then clearly one is in the wrong.  If not, then work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 2:12-13
12 [-----]continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13  for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
(NIV)

Verse 13 makes my point crystal clear.

Blessings brothers!

[Symphony]

Actually, I did play football in high school!  


Scripture does not indicate either way on this.    


Glad my post was though provoking.

Maybe we're taking the Catholic thing too seriously?  Tibby demonstrates a definite allegiance, or loyalty--rather taken with it, perhaps as if you might be thinking about the priesthood yourself?

I don’t see HOW bowing is automatically worship.

Context, my dear Watson, context.    

The "context", of your earlier example, of walking into the sanctuary, and bowing the knee to a crucifix; your interpretation was that this was not necessarily worship.

Respectfully, I must demure.    

The context of that whole event, walking into a sanctuary(a place of "worship", is it not?), bespeaks worship!!  (Er, uh, unless there's something else going on there I don't know about. )

Tim Lets not forget however, that Gods greatest work was done, through the frailty of his Son.

Yes, that is true.  It was all God's doing, and through no "might" of Jesus.

Tibby Jesus' frailty wasn't a failure.

Yes, Jesus became stronger because of all the trauma exerted on Him--ultimately, through God's doing, that is, raising Him from the dead.

So the crucifix symbolizes frailty, weakness, even "failure"(temporary)--and, if Jesus hadn't been raised, we wouldn't even be sitting here talking about this(during this time, the Pax Romana of the Roman Empire, thousands were crucified--Jesus would have just been one more in a now long forgotten litany...).

It's b/c Jesus WAS raised, though, that we even ARE here talking about this--not just that he was crucified.  But the whole context of  contemporary Christian reality, and our worship, is one of victory.  Any symbols would seem to want to commemorate this(thus, a bare cross)--the victory, not the loss?

Well, I don't wish to beat a dead horse, so I'll shuddup.  

[Petro]

From the human perspective, fraility, weakness and failure is all that the cross can symbolize.

I could never agree with this since it is clear He obeyed and willingingly went to the cross, and it is clear by His obedience many be made righteous.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14.

Viewing Jesus as frail, and weak and His physical death a failure, reflects our own opinion of ourselves, but in the proper context, God was manifested in the flesh, though His human nature showed a reluctance to go through with His sacrificial death, it was not because He considered his physical death at all, but the idea of being separated from His Father for the equivelence of an eternity in hell, for the sins of His people.

Failure is not what an empty cross depicts at all, though the effigy of a man hanging on it, may very well depict it.

But since the Lord has risen, this symbol is one of power, strength, glory and victory, the scriptures reminding us His soul was not left in Hell, neither did His flesh see corruption. (Acts 2:31)

If this be so, why reflect on the things which the crucifix symbolizes, the cross itself is sufficiently symbolic of His life, death, and resurrection, to recall that God was manifested in the flesh to take away the sins of the world, and the victory was obtained by His death, and,

being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Rom 6:9-10

Blessings

Petro









He could have avoided His own sacrificial death, having full Faith in His heveanly Father, though he

[Tibby]

Could be… I have always, from a very young age, had a desire to follow in my fathers foots steps and get Ordained. But after we joined CEC, I found the priesthood very much to my liking. Unlike many Protestant group that just hand out Ordination papers, this group requires a Bachelors before you are even considered for it (with a exceptions, of course). Before we joined this, my father was handed 3 different Ordinations on 3 different occasions. The fact that he has 2 bachelors and a Masters didn’t even come into the picture! I’m sorry, but I feel the Clergy need to be educated men. I’d want to be  part of the clergy as Christ’s Church, the Bishop’s church. The place is great. The Archdeaon has a map of Mordor and one of Middle-earth in the far wall of his office. They are also involves in Fencing and Kendo, and they keep there gear at the church I once compared it to a toy chest “Well, Fr. Reid, I believe you guys have fully grasped the ‘play before the lord’ Concept ”

I also think there needs to be a better Church Government, ESPECIALLY for Charismatic. While my church was still Penta-baptist, the former pastor (retired a few years ago) was trying to start a network of the full gospel churches in the area. Some pastors flat out said “No, this is MY church!” It is like, WHAT?! What do you think Paul would have said if Timothy told him that? Ha, I would love the be a fly on the wall of the talk Timothy gets when Paul ride back into town! Do you think Paul would have been to happy if the Corinthian’s or Ephesians’ tried to pull a stunt like that? I’ve seen the mess these Independent Churches can cause. Without any accountability to a larger church body, one of 2 things happens. A- The Pastor because a mini-pope, completely infallible, or B- the Church people have the pastor on a leash. If this where to happen in a Catholic-style set up, we have a Bishop, who is the Pastor of the Pastors of his area. We just call him, and he works it out. I’ve seen it work before. Someone was causing trouble in a church. The kind of gossip-trouble that Happens all the time in Independent churches, and causes major splits. One call to the Bishop, and He was there, Archdeacon at his side, and they settled things in a weekend. In an Independent Church, this would have gone on for ages, a festering sire, till something hit the fan, and all hell breaks lose.

Yeah, I think it is safe to say I demonstrate a definite allegiance. Do you know how many church I’ve been in that spilt and break up and fall apart? More then 19 year old should. A LOT more. In my short life time, I’ve seen Pastors (ex-pastors, that is) who are married, commit adultery with another parishioners wife. I’ve seen the guy come into replace him, and started a campaign against my father to get him out of the Elder’s office, then go after the rest of the Elder’s, one by one. I’ve seen people Hate a new pastor because he was too young (if 30 is young), and cause a church rift. I’ve seen  people leave the church, there last words being “Call me when you straighten it out.” And these are just things from church I have been to. Not counting guys who claim God told them to divorce there wife and marry another, and STILL get the preach on TBN. Not counting “Bishop” with or “Prophet” that attack the Catholic system because of their use of titles. Gee, T.D. Jakes, where do you think the work “bishop” came from?!

But, this is more then you asked for.   Yes, I am considering the Priesthood. Back to the topic at hand.

So, everything that happens in the sanctuary is worship? Lets go back to football. The field is the place to play, but just because I’m on the grass, does that mean I’m playing? No. Not everything done in a sanctuary is worship. Because you bow before a cross doesn’t mean you are worshiping that cross.  When you get right down to it, it would be impossible NOT to bow to something physical. No matter where you turn, there will be something blocking your path. If we took the cross away, would you guys would tell us we worship the wall? If we did it outside, would you tell us we worship that tree a mile down the road? No, of course not. Bowing in front of something does not instantly denote worship. Read in context, People bow to a lot more then God. It doesn’t make it worship. To become an OT Priest, you would bow before a high priest to get the oil poured on you, wouldn‘t you? Is that worship to the high priest? The ref is on the field in football, doesn’t mean he is playing football. He may be playing a game with your team, but he isn’t playing football.

Personally, I think Ref’s should have to play the losing team after a game. I think games would be more fair

[Petro]

tibby,

I feel the Clergy need to be educated men

I know what you mean, this is perceived by most people today.

What with all the psychology one needs to learn to build a profitable church,the emphasis is more on the required subjects, rather than scripture.

I am sure if Peter or John showed up in a church today, and desired to speak, they would be asked for their credentials.

Even when Peter stood with John before the elders of Israel, these educated men;

..... when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acys 4:13)

Somehow I don't see, what education has to do with preaching the gospel, except maybe to learn how to read and write.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.  Jhn 6:45

I think the man of God, should strive to learn the scriptures, and forgo, the classes which do not have anything to do with scriptures, or church history, why fill ones head with nonsense.

Petro

[Tibby]

Yeah, Peter and James where not. But, out of everyone in the bible, who wrote the most books? Paul, a learned man. No, you don’t need a Masters to be intelligent ,and 4 years at a Seminary doesn’t make you a godly man. But boy, I think if you looked into it, you would find the majority of intelligent men have College Degrees.  And to understand the bible, you don’t even have to be a full high School grad. However, it helps. I’m a test away from being one semester finished with college, and I can already tell, it takes work. It graduate, you develop a work ethic. People skills, as well. You have study group, and meetings with professors. You learn better study and research habits. No, having a piece of paper on your walks doesn’t automatically make you a great man of god, nor a smart man, but it will help. On top of that you really don’t grasp your own ignorance till you go to college. I’m in a class and I think to my self “Oh, THAT is how it works. Everything makes since now!” I learned REALLY fast I don’t know even a quarter of the stuff I thought I did. It isn’t just the time, it is the experience, the life lessons you learn.

Yes, I have meet men who never went to college and are smarter then the average graduate, and I have met idiots who have Masters. College, I think, it something everyone should experience. My very short time there has only furthered my walk in ways I didn’t know it could.

As for Church History, we have to study it. If you don’t know where you have been, how do you know where you are going? Besides, you seem to enjoy the RCC’s history

[Symphony]

It's easy to confuse education with maturity.

The church needs mature men(and women ).  An elder or leader has to be mature.

Education can provide some of that.  You can "technically" learn many of the pitfalls unique to leadership, which is what education is, and can help you avoid.

But education is a temptation to pride--"knowledge puffeth up".  And so there is always that increased risk.

Maturity, on the other hand, has something education can only tell you about--gravity.   Your feet on the ground.  Some young educated folk do have gravity.  But they typically are that way naturally--they are just born with it.  They would have that gravity, educated or not.  Education for them is merely a development of what already is there.  Some old educated folk are as stupid as a firstgrader(no ofrense to the firsgraders   ).

You've certainly been exposed to a lot, Tibby, and for someone only yet 19?   And you've had to think through a lot. It's "colorful", what you discribe, but certainly not very flattering of a "Christian" tradition, protestant or Catholic.  

One obscure movie I stumbled across, depicting an athletic, protestant minister, small town, and the temptations he encounters(getting his picture on the cover of Time magazine), the regional bishop, the church members:  "Cold Turkey", a Norman Lear screenplay, so it's satire, definitely funny, but food for thought too, about a small town that tries to quit smoking in order to win a sweepstakes wager by big tobacco.  The minister spearheads the contest.

But you cover a lot there, Tibby, in what you describe.  Alot of contradictions in whatever church one happens to be in.
Norman Lear zeroes right in on it--people going to sleep in the church pews(and a fly buzzing into one guy's open mouth  ), camera shots showing a portly lady adjusting her girdle( ), behind the scenes payoffs and your typical competing ambitions of the various folk.

   

[ollie]

If you'd risen from the dead, literally, after being impaled on a wooden cross, why would you want people in your honor to keep you up there impaled on that cross??

What is the history of "the crucifix", when I thought the whole point of Jesus in the first place was the resurrection part--that is, He is risen.

Why would we want to still depict Him as crucified.

Could keeping our Savior as symbolized still crucfied, be sado-masochism, or indulging the death of someone just for the sake of the death--sort of gloating--almost as if we're rejoicing that he's up there on the cross?  All of those about Him, the Sanhedrin, the Roman soldiers, mocked Him even as He hung there.

Few of us can imagine the horror off what Jesus is going through.

By keeping Him there, as symbolized, aren't we sort of mocking Him?


     

Are we not to remember and show His death till He comes by partaking in the communion bread and drink of the fruit of the vine? This memorial is not done with man made statues and crosses according to our Lord.

[Symphony]

Now that's a good point.  Thank you, Ollie.

[aw]

I have read that it was derived from the mystic TAU of the Chaldeans and Egyptians. Supposedly, it came from the letter "T" which was the initial name of TAMMUZ and was used in the BABYLONIAN MYSTERIES for MAGIC purposes.

Certainly, there is no scriptural warrant for it or several of the other things of the RCC.
Is this correct?

aw

[Tibby]

Sym and ollie- Good points. Sym, you said a lot of great stuff. Mature is a good way to put it. That was what I was trying to say. Maturity is a problem, cause the "Church" to do things we are not proud of. Most of it totally against the bible. Directly again the 10 commandments. I don't know why Christians would think killing witchs, burning crosses in people front yards, and bombing abortion clinics are a good idea...

Aw- Do we believe in magic now? You might not want to say that, A4C and Brother Love will kick you out of their Harry Potter club! Jesus died on a cross for our sins. It doesn't take a Master degree to see that. Nor does it take a Super Satan mystic Cult with a Stargate fetish . The Early Church used crosses as a sign. Then, someone thought it would be cool to add a Jesus on it, maybe a Bishop did it for looks; maybe a priest wanted something as a more striking, provoking reminder; maybe a monk wanted to show iff his widdling skills by cavring a figure on his rosery; maybe some King wasn't to get on the Pope goot side with a cool looking present, who knows where it first came out. Point being, no matter what Jack Chic thinks he knows, somethings just turn out that way, without any occultish influence. The Early Church used the Cross and the fish as signs that the Government who was trying to kill them wouldn't notice. And the picture of Jesus was added on later for effect.

Now lets go back and look at this a different way: WHY, oh why, would the Catholic Church have any reason to use a sign used by a Cult in the first place? Yeah, if the origin of it is occultish, it would be a grave thing, proving the Catholic Church is evil. But there is just no reason to use it! Did they just run out of good ideas or something? The bible is full of symbols. And I'm sure they had a few creative Preist who could have drawn a cool looking symbol. Maybe call Prince's agent, we would have the Pope formerly know as John Paul, too What would be the point of using a cult sign? 2 sticks crossing eachother, doesn't get much simpler then that! Unless they wanted to use a line

Sorry, if the 2 paragraphs sound angery or bitter. I didn't mean for it too, but I know it does sometimes ( a lot of the time) it reads that way. And then the other person get defencive, and, to quote the Supertones we look "Less like a Family, and more like a fist fight." I think we have done a good job thus far, I just don't want to start it up all over again. That's never fun. Look, I'm smiling---------->

[Petro]

It's easy to confuse education with maturity.

The church needs mature men(and women ).  An elder or leader has to be mature.

I agree, it must be a Godly Maturity.

I am afraid the reason for most of the woes in the chuch today is the progressive liberal teachings, which lead to women preachers/pastors, and even accepting leaders who are openly involved in practicing sin.

Even the lack of discipline handed down to church leaders who are involved in things unbecoming the office, rather it seems it is just simply ignored.

Well, thats all I have to say about this matter.

Blessings
Petro

[aw]

It was a question and not a statement of my beliefs. There are several that I have relative to Roman Catholocism, especially the veneration of Mary, as the catechism does state in explicit and glowing terms that she is necessary for salvation. It also says that there is no salvation for anyone outside of the Catrholic church which can only be entered into by baptismal regeneration followed by transubstantiation.

Just curious and perhaps you can fill me in on how the RCC views salvation?

aw

[Tibby]

Yeah, I know. I just had a lot to say on the topic, and I know when I type stuff like that, it an come out kind of rough. I just wanted you to know that wasn’t how I meant it.

What kind of a Catechism do you have? The Vatican II stated the salvation from other Churches is legitimate. I’d have to double check, but I think that they where the same council that caused a lot of the Mary stuff everyone hates so much. Sounds like you have old copy!

The Question of Salvation is a complex one, let me get back to you later today.

[Tibby]

In the mean time, check out newadvent.com. They have a pretty vage, useless definition of Salvation, but it is better then nothing.