The Crucifix

[Symphony]

If you'd risen from the dead, literally, after being impaled on a wooden cross, why would you want people in your honor to keep you up there impaled on that cross??

What is the history of "the crucifix", when I thought the whole point of Jesus in the first place was the resurrection part--that is, He is risen.

Why would we want to still depict Him as crucified.

Could keeping our Savior as symbolized still crucfied, be sado-masochism, or indulging the death of someone just for the sake of the death--sort of gloating--almost as if we're rejoicing that he's up there on the cross?  All of those about Him, the Sanhedrin, the Roman soldiers, mocked Him even as He hung there.

Few of us can imagine the horror off what Jesus is going through.

By keeping Him there, as symbolized, aren't we sort of mocking Him?


     

[2nd Timothy]

I can understand what you are saying here.  Lets not forget however, that his death and punishment represents just how ugly sin that we commit really is.  Without his death, we have no forgivness of sin.  Just as he died for our sins, and we die to sins ourselves daily, as he rose from the dead we have faith and the blessed hope that we too will be raised from the dead.

Jesus himself retained wounds he received, and showed them to Thomas.  Jesus will show his nail pierced hands to the children of Israel when He returns to earth, and they will morn over Him.

As for a crucifix being bad...I don't think it is, as long as the symbol itself does not become an object of worship.  His sacrifice is just as important as his ressurection.  IMO wearing a crucifix is not a desire to keep Jesus wounded and bleeding (although some may see it that way), rather, it should be a reminder of the price He paid for us.  In either case, I wouldn't let the idea of people wearing one interupt your faith in christ.  Whether a person wears one or not will certainly not make difference on judgment day.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

As one who was raised in the Catholic church, from my youth, and understand well the faith works gospel that this institution teaches, it wasn't until came to saving faith in Jesus, that I came to an understanidng of the symbolism of the crucifix.

Since this institution teaches one must believe in Jesus to be saved, this in itself in not enough to keep one saved, one must obeserve the seven sacraments, keep the ten commandments, and be obedient to the teachings of the mother church, in effect work out ones own salavtion, thus Jesus is shown hanging on the cross, as a reminder of what he has done,

He has done His part, Now you need to do your part......

I am sure they, have their own teaching of what the criucifix symbolizes to them, but this is clearly what came to me, from all that I a remember learn while growing up in this church.

It definitely is not a biblical symbol, since the scriptures clearly teach a resurrected savior, and an empty cross.

I can't imagine how the crucifix glorifies Jesus.


Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Hey Petro,

Again, I can understand this point of view.  I don't put a lot of value on it either way.  

To say it simply, God is interested in whats in the heart.  Once this is in the right place, the Lord will address the other things.

[Tibby]

Man, Sym your opening sentence reminds me of a Bill Hicks quote: "When Jesus comes back, do you think he EVER wants to see another cross again?"

Here is Baptist country, we here that a lot. Once, a lady went to a church with a set of those earrings, and the pastor told her to take them off or leave because "Jesus ain’t on that thing any more." I think it is an unbiblical phase that just caught on, like WWJD.

Now, Sym, this is a legitimate concern. Petty, but still legitimate. I ask you, what saves you, Jesus or the Cross? Jesus. So, shouldn't be have something depicting Jesus, not the Roman Electric chair? Mocking Jesus would be if we had him on the cross, with his tongue out and his eyes replaced with X's. Mocking Jesus would be putting him on a Hallmarking singing Figurine where he his bobbing his head and singing "Always look on the bright side of light." I could go on, but I think you get it.

As long as we get the idea, I really don't think it matters weather we like our Jesus statue on the cross or off the cross. As 2nd Tim said, we aren't worshipping the cross. It isn't an Idol, it isn't the object of our worship. As Petro said, it isn't in the bible. The bible does not address displying a cross or fish.

Really, I don't think it matter.

[Petro]

As long as we get the idea, I really don't think it matters weather we like our Jesus statue on the cross or off the cross. As 2nd Tim said, we aren't worshipping the cross.

Allow me to ask you a question tibby.

Do you bow, or bend the knee  and do the sign of the cross, before the crusifix??

Most Catholics do...  and that is worship.

When you make these kinds of statements, and refer to yourself as Catholic, it begs questions like this, to clarify, that which does not jive with what Catholic theology teaches.

Now perhaps, you haven't clarified, the kind of catholicism you follow.

However,  I am reminded that a man by the name of Edward Irving, who was instrumental in begining the Irvingite movement in the 1830's, began the Catholic Apostolic church in this country.

If you are not an offshoot of Roman Catholicism, is this the Catholic church you belong to.

It isn't an Idol, it isn't the object of our worship.

How does your church define an idol?


Blessings,

Petro

[Tibby]

Ah, Petro, I love ya, man always an issue with my posts. Hey, at least you haven’t corrected the grammar and spelling for a while!

Anyways, bowing, I personally do not see bowing as worship. Bowing has many functions. It can be worship, or submission, or respect, any number of things. In this case, it is respect.

lol, I know we have covered the topic of which group I’m with. I’m a Member of the CEC (website on my profile, beautiful site, by the way), not the CAC. The CAC is in fact a spin-off of the RCC, leaving Rome in 1930 to follow a much more Charismatic form. Their line of Succession is still valid. The CEC was founded separate from it, with no knowledge of the CAC. I haven’t heard of Irving, but the CEC does have official ties with the Brazilian Church. Mostly, they talk about Brazil when referring the CAC in the CEC. I’m guessing Irving is/was one of the American Bishops. Either way, brilliant deduction, the CAC and CEC do have many similarities, I’m surprised you noticed.

The CEC is a group of Convergence Catholics, the foremost church of the convergence movement, and one of the largest growing denominations. Now, the CEC does have some connections with the CAC. The CEC liturgy is a little bit more Anglican in appearance then the CAC, but the CEC still follows much of Rome’s ways. There is no official connection to Rome because, as the Archdeacon put it, Rome normally doesn’t consort with Denominations that are less then half as old as the current Pope The Head of the CEC, Archbishop Randy Adler, has a background on the opposite end of the Christian spectru :)m; he is former CI, and Bill Hammond’s right hand man. Needless to say, ol’ Bill doesn’t exactly like Adler anymore. But, Adler was delivered from... I mean he left the Independent Charismatic circles to start the CEC  Now you know... the rest of the story... Sorry, couldn’t help my self. But, in short, we do have connections to the CAC, but I am not CAC.

I define idol as a physical object of worship, or a thing worshipped over God. My church is still young, and doesn’t have an official dictionary... yet

[Petro]

Ah, Petro, I love ya, man always an issue with my posts. Hey, at least you haven’t corrected the grammar and spelling for a while!

Anyways, bowing, I personally do not see bowing as worship. Bowing has many functions. It can be worship, or submission, or respect, any number of things. In this case, it is respect.

lol, I know we have covered the topic of which group I’m with. I’m a Member of the CEC (website on my profile, beautiful site, by the way), not the CAC. The CAC is in fact a spin-off of the RCC, leaving Rome in 1930 to follow a much more Charismatic form. Their line of Succession is still valid. The CEC was founded separate from it, with no knowledge of the CAC. I haven’t heard of Irving, but the CEC does have official ties with the Brazilian Church. Mostly, they talk about Brazil when referring the CAC in the CEC. I’m guessing Irving is/was one of the American Bishops. Either way, brilliant deduction, the CAC and CEC do have many similarities, I’m surprised you noticed.

The CEC is a group of Convergence Catholics, the foremost church of the convergence movement, and one of the largest growing denominations. Now, the CEC does have some connections with the CAC. The CEC liturgy is a little bit more Anglican in appearance then the CAC, but the CEC still follows much of Rome’s ways. There is no official connection to Rome because, as the Archdeacon put it, Rome normally doesn’t consort with Denominations that are less then half as old as the current Pope The Head of the CEC, Archbishop Randy Adler, has a background on the opposite end of the Christian spectru :)m; he is former CI, and Bill Hammond’s right hand man. Needless to say, ol’ Bill doesn’t exactly like Adler anymore. But, Adler was delivered from... I mean he left the Independent Charismatic circles to start the CEC  Now you know... the rest of the story... Sorry, couldn’t help my self. But, in short, we do have connections to the CAC, but I am not CAC.

I define idol as a physical object of worship, or a thing worshipped over God. My church is still young, and doesn’t have an official dictionary... yet

tibby,

I appreaciate your openness in answering my questions,

Thank you,

Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

I too have a few questions, and it is in no way intended to perpetuate an argument.

1.  If a young man walked into your church on Sunday morning, and he was wearing a t-shirt with a pentagram on it, would you send him away?  
2.  If another man walked into your church on Sunday morning wearing a t-shirt with christ hanging on a cross, would you send him away?  
3.  And finally, if a 3rd man came into your church wearing an empty cross, would you send him away?

Grace and Peace!

[Tibby]

Petro- any time

Tim- Very good point.

[Petro]

I too have a few questions, and it is in no way intended to perpetuate an argument.

1.  If a young man walked into your church on Sunday morning, and he was wearing a t-shirt with a pentagram on it, would you send him away?  
2.  If another man walked into your church on Sunday morning wearing a t-shirt with christ hanging on a cross, would you send him away?  
3.  And finally, if a 3rd man came into your church wearing an empty cross, would you send him away?

Grace and Peace!

2dTim,

If you are trying to compare symbols, to the crucifix, to determine what is acceptable in a church?

I don't know why you would ask such a question, the person wearing the t-shirt with any synmbol, is not the object being bowed or kneeled and prayed to.

In the case of ther Catholic church they do, bow and kneel before symbols, the crucifix is one of many, so are statutes and pictures.

And certainly I don't know of any Christian who would do either to a symbol on any shirt.

So you can't compare the matter to what is or is not done in Christian churches.

I know the argument is always made to defend the worship of these, by those defending what is done, by claiming protestants pray in a sanctuary which may have a symbol or stained glass depiction of an angel or some other personage, but I must point out the difference is not the symbol but the expression of what is considered worship of the object.

Would you be qualified to define between worship, obeyance (a form of submission), paying respects, to a relic.

Blessings, Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

Perhaps we are missing each others point here.  

I was not trying to get to the point of what is acceptable to worship.  And maybe thats what you are driving at, or rather if it is acceptable at all?  I do not feel it is right to worshop anything other than God himself.

What I was getting at with my previous questions, was that God is interested in the condition of the heart of individuals.  Not their outward appearance.  So I think we are both making blind points here  

From the 3 hypothetical individuals I mentioned, the symbolism adorned on their shirts from Gods perspective would not make a difference.  It would be the condition of their hearts that brought them into a place looking for answers.   From mens perspective, some might view the one wearing a pentagram as disrespectful and turn him away which would be wrong in my view.  Some churches might even turn away the fellow wearing crucified Jesus thinking this was disrespectful.   In any case, there is no way for men to determine the spiritual state of an individual by their adornments.  There may be clues (the fruits they bear), but only God is able to see the heart of men.

So back to the original question.  Are we mocking him by having a crucifix showing his death, whether that be neckless, picture, emblem on a shirt?   Personally, I don't believe so.   It makes no difference in my faith or belief in what he did for me whether I have one of those things or not.   If a persons heart is in the right place God will be able to direct them to apropriate attire and such.  If the heart is not in the right place, all the perceived righteous dressing, attire, or spiritual symbolism in the world wont amount to a hill of beans.

Sorry if you misundertood my questions brother, I believe I misunderstood your's as well.

Grace and Peace!

[Symphony]

2nd Timothy  If the heart is not in the right place, all the perceived righteous dressing, attire, or spiritual symbolism in the world wont amount to a hill of beans.


Well now see, this to me is precisely the reason all of that wouldamount to a great hill of beans.


That is sort of my original point.  If Jesus is Risen from the dead, all of these "accoutrements" would seem to be irrelevant.  And if one of those accoutrements even has him still depicted as losing(not winning), i.e., the crucifix, I would especially tend to find that, at least, "ambiguous"--highly inconsistent with the theme of the whole enterprise in the first place, that is, victory.   Triumphal Roman Generals didn't ride into Rome depicting their losses.  The SuperBowl winners don't repeatedly instant replay their fumbles.  

For quite sometime, I agreed with you 2nd Tim, it didn't make a difference.  I'm just not seeing in the light of such victory the relevance of the "anti-victory".  But, of course, I see your and the others' point here.  

Thanks also for yours, Tibby.   Very nice response.  I will have to think about that one.  Meanwhile, I fail to see how "bowing" is not in fact worshiping, as the scripture that says, "every knee shall bow" would seem strongly to imply worship for sure; not to mention I think that was the reason Daniel et.al. were thrown into the fiery furnace, b/c they refused to bow in that case to (Iraqii? hehe) idols?

Yes, I guess it's a frequent criticism of the Catholic church--the crucifix, that is.

[2nd Timothy]

Hmmm, I guess I can agree with this to some degree.

Triumphal Roman Generals didn't ride into Rome depicting their losses.  The SuperBowl winners don't repeatedly instant replay their fumbles.

Lets not forget however, that Gods greatest work was done, through the frailty of his Son.  


Grace and Peace!

[Tibby]

Glad my post was though provoking. On another note, I don’t see HOW bowing is automatically worship. Every knee shall bow, yes. Do a sword search on bow. People bowed to kings and Patriarchs and you will even find people bowing down to an alter or 2. Is this worship of the Leader, or Fathers, or structure? Of course not. Yes, the bible does, in places, implies bowing is worship, but it also implies respect and submission. There is a lot of bowing going on, and not all of it is worship. When the bible IS referring you bowing as worship, you will normally find “and worship” comes after it. Even in the Story with Daniel and his boys, they say they will not bow down or worship. If bowing is worship, why would they specify “bow down and worship”

Of course, these are just my thoughts, I haven’t done massive research on the topic. But if we are using the bible as a dictionary, lets look at other verses, where bowing isn’t an act of worship, but of respect and reverence.

Hmmm, I guess I can agree with this to some degree.

Triumphal Roman Generals didn't ride into Rome depicting their losses.  The SuperBowl winners don't repeatedly instant replay their fumbles.

Lets not forget however, that Gods greatest work was done, through the frailty of his Son.  


Grace and Peace!

Was Jesus’ death a Victory or a defeat? What it a touchdown or touchback? I think those a great examples, and a very good point. I guess you never played football in High School, Tim (or any sport for that matter)? After a game, win or lose, you feel pretty frail for several days! Happens after a good workout, too.   Running for miles, then Drill after drill after drill, then running some mro,e they weight lifting, then a second work-out they claim is a cool-down (Yeah, right). To go home around 9 at night, and if you have the strength, to draw a hot bath to soak in. You feel like You've been run over. A 4 year old would beat the fire out of you. But, that wasn't a bad thing. You are healthier, and stronger, and tougher for it. Jesus' frailty wasn't a failure.