DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 21, 2017, 01:32:31 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
277685 Posts in 26446 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  General Theology (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  Why did Christ have to die ?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Why did Christ have to die ?  (Read 9565 times)
ag22plug
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13


View Profile
« on: December 31, 2007, 01:21:02 PM »

I accept that the new covenant is a wonderful gift to mankind but i dont quite get this ransom thing.
Christs death pays the price for our sins , yes ok , ; christs attoning blood washes away our sins if we accept it, yes , very nice.
I love Christ with all my heart for doing what he did and i accept his attoning blood and want to do good in his name, yes yes yes;
but why did it have to involve his death?
Couldnt he just invoke a new covenant without having to suffer this humiliation.

My only way of answering this question is to involve Satan ; somethig like : Satan would only allow God to change the rules if he got something in return, like the chance to humiliate his son.
But ive never heard another christian put it that way.

Please put me out of this confusion.

  thanks Chris.
Logged
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 58539


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 01:40:13 PM »

When sin came into the world it brought death to mankind. Not only did Christ die and shed His blood to wash away our sins He had to over come death also, the wages of sin, in our place so that we may have eternal life through Him.

Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 60389


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 09:34:29 PM »

AMEN!

I've heard this put many ways, and I've had many Bible Studies on this topic. Books have been written about this topic, but I just want to share a few thoughts. Bear with me for a moment and see if this makes sense.

To have a "Testament", you have to have a "Testator" and a death that involves an inheritance. For the Old Testament, we have Adam and an inheritance of the "curse of sin and death". Then the Law came and no man was ever able to keep the Law. In fact, no man has ever been able to totally please GOD. GOD hates disobedience and the filthiness of sin and evil. Burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin didn't please GOD, and the stench of sin was still on men.

For the New Testament, we have JESUS CHRIST offering HIMSELF as a perfect and Eternal Sacrifice for sin for those who believe and accept HIM as LORD and SAVIOUR. The inheritance for those belonging to CHRIST is rescue from the curse of sin and death and Eternity with JESUS CHRIST in Heaven. However, this is just the beginning. Believers are seen in and through JESUS CHRIST, so GOD is pleased, and the stench of sin is washed away with the perfect Righteousness of JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST was the only Perfect and Holy Sacrifice, so Only JESUS CHRIST could finish the work of Salvation on the CROSS!

Now, let's back up and talk about something really simple. Why did GOD Create human beings? It was to Glorify HIMSELF, but he gave man choice to do right and wrong. GOD didn't fail - man failed. Man didn't Glorify GOD, but JESUS CHRIST did! JESUS CHRIST fulfilled the Law perfectly and provided a WAY for mankind to be rescued from the curse of sin and death. Our original purpose is now fulfilled by GOD working in and through those who belong to HIM, and our Righteousness is the Righteousness of CHRIST! The stench of our sin has been washed away by the Precious Blood of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS, and HE makes us acceptable for the Inheritance with the Saints in LIGHT. That LIGHT is JESUS CHRIST! We Love HIM because HE first Loved Us. HE showed us the ultimate Love by dying on the CROSS in our place and taking our punishment in HIS Own Body. The inheritance involves MUCH more than just Salvation, and ONLY JESUS CHRIST could fulfill GOD'S Plan for us.

I hope that I explained this in a way that makes sense. If not, read the portions of Scripture below and use them to Study other portions of Scripture. There was a time when men needed a Levitical Priest to petition GOD on their behalf, but Christians today have access to the THRONE OF GRACE always, and THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in our hearts. There was a time when approaching the HOLY OF HOLIES meant immediate death, but GOD has made each Christian of today a living temple for HIS use. JESUS CHRIST accomplished all of this and much more on the CROSS. WHY? - It Pleased GOD, and we can now Please GOD through JESUS CHRIST, our LORD and SAVIOUR!


Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 7:18-19 NASB
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 10:19-25 NASB
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;  and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Romans 5:1-2 NASB
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Titus 2:11-14 NASB
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Titus 3:4-7 NASB
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 5:4-6 NASB
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Ephesians 1:11-14 NASB
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Romans 5:3-5 NASB
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NASB
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 NASB
But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Logged

Jon-Marc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 285


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 01:00:31 AM »


My only way of answering this question is to involve Satan ; somethig like : Satan would only allow God to change the rules if he got something in return, like the chance to humiliate his son.
But ive never heard another christian put it that way.

Please put me out of this confusion.

  thanks Chris.

Satan doesn't allow God to do anything since God doesn't need his permission to do anything. Satan is a created being, and like all other created beings is subservient to God's will. He can't do anything without God allowing it.
Logged

Secure in Christ--Holy Spirit in me.
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 58539


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 01:12:34 AM »

Satan doesn't allow God to do anything since God doesn't need his permission to do anything. Satan is a created being, and like all other created beings is subservient to God's will. He can't do anything without God allowing it.

An excellent and truthful point.

Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
ag22plug
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 02:26:52 PM »

Thanks to Pastor Roger and Blackeyedpeas for your replies which i have thought about.
I am getting nearer to understanding this but it does seem to be strangely complicated.

Im interested by the comparison of burnt offerings and Christs supreme offering and i will have to sleep on that idea.

I find that many of the explanations which i hear regarding the christian subject sound very good and seem to fit nicely,
but im always looking for convincing "one-liners", because when trying to spread the word thats all you get a chance to use.
 
thanks again , chris.
Logged
ag22plug
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 03:01:52 PM »

Satan doesn't allow God to do anything since God doesn't need his permission to do anything. Satan is a created being, and like all other created beings is subservient to God's will. He can't do anything without God allowing it.

I wasnt suggesing that God had to get permission from Satan to change the rules but rather that he wants to play the game fair.
Of course he could tell satan to get stuffed and lock him up in hell whenever he wants to, but he wants to allow the "Good v Evil" thing to play out
to prove conclusively that Good is the only way.
God realised that according to the previous covenant nobody would be saved (ever) ,so he sad down with Satan and said "if you let me change the rules i will allow you your wish".
Satan perhaps thought it was a good gamble to try and get Gods son on his side; of couse we know that he failed to get Christ to worship him.
He did however get enormous pleasure from killing Christs body on the cross.

I agree Satan cant do anything without God allowing it, and im suggesting that God did allow it,to be fair (and God is 100% good and 100% fair).

My suggestion in the original post was only an "off the cuff" suggesion and i didnt carefully choose my words.
When ive fully chewed over this subject i hope to formulate a better "one liner" which is more convincing.

thanks for the interest
  cheers Chris.
Logged
David_james
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1494


Jesus loves you


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 04:49:22 PM »

God didn't change any rules. Jesus dying on the cross was already planned.

Also God didn't say satan could do anything for God to change things, He just allowed satan to do it. Everything went according to GOD"S AWESOME WONDERFUL PERFECT PLAN!  Smiley
Logged

Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 58539


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 05:04:38 PM »

Quote
God realised that according to the previous covenant nobody would be saved (ever) ,so he sad down with Satan and said "if you let me change the rules i will allow you your wish".

Yes, you do need to work on your wording some more because this looks like you are saying that God had to make a deal with Satan. God is much smarter than that. He wouldn't have given any ifs this or ifs that. Just like God did when Satan tried to tempt Him in the wilderness He says this is the deal, take it or leave it.

And a really BIG AMEN to what David said. God's plan has been in effect from the beginning. The Ten Commandments and all the rest of the laws was not a plan that He had to "change is mind on". It was a part of His plan to prove to mankind that they are not able to obtain righteousness on their own and therefore do need to accept Christ as their Saviour for only Jesus Christ is righteous and it is righteousness none of our own that provides Salvation for mankind.

Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 58539


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 05:06:36 PM »

You want one-liners yet in God's own words it takes more than mere one-liners.

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Salvation, salvation from death under the law by God's perfect grace.

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 3:22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 4:21  And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 4:24  But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 60389


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 08:45:56 PM »

God didn't change any rules. Jesus dying on the cross was already planned.

Also God didn't say satan could do anything for God to change things, He just allowed satan to do it. Everything went according to GOD"S AWESOME WONDERFUL PERFECT PLAN!  :)

AMEN BROTHER DAVID!

You just spoke volumes and really covered it all in one of the best ways that I've ever heard. There are only THREE Eternal Beings with NO beginning WHO were NOT CREATED by ALMIGHTY GOD, and those THREE Eternal Beings are ONE:  GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. ALMIGHTY GOD does as HE Pleases in Heaven and on earth. HE has Unlimited and Unspeakable POWER to CREATE OR DO whatever HE Wishes. HE could have made all of us like robots to obey HIM and love HIM, but that is not HIS Way and that wouldn't please HIM. HE wants us to choose to obey and love HIM because we want to.

NO portion of ALMIGHTY GOD'S CREATION totally understands HIS WAYS. For now, HE has told us what HE wants us to know in HIS WORD, and we can find out much more through prayer and our personal relationship with HIM. HE will reveal more to us at HIS Appointed time, but all would have to agree that HIS WORD is an amazing Revelation from an ALL POWERFUL and LOVING GOD and CREATOR. HE didn't have to give us the Bible, but HE did and that is part of HIS WAYS. HE gave us MUCH MORE than enough to make choices between good and evil.

Everything in HIS CREATED Universe does revolve around one powerful sentence that you have stated, "Everything went according to GOD"S AWESOME WONDERFUL PERFECT PLAN!" - This will be true for Eternity - GOD'S Will be done! - and it Will BE!


Love In Christ,
Tom

   
Logged

ag22plug
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 02:33:45 AM »

God didn't change any rules. Jesus dying on the cross was already planned.

Also God didn't say satan could do anything for God to change things, He just allowed satan to do it. Everything went according to GOD"S AWESOME WONDERFUL PERFECT PLAN!  Smiley

My current understanding is that God did change the rules :  Prior to Christs time we had to obey the 10C to be saved ; then after Christs death we could be saved through repentance,forgiveness,faith in Christ,accepting his gift etc.

WRT "Gods awesome wonderful plan" i do wonder exactly which part of bible history you are refering to.
What i see is an initial wonderful plan (gods creation in Eden) going horribly wrong and then a series of coping strategies.
I hope you arent suggesting that Satan and all the suffering he has bought to the world is part of this plan.

regards Chris.
Logged
ag22plug
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 02:54:11 AM »

Replying to Pastor Rogers Reply 9 ;

Yes i do want one-liners because ,as i said before, thats often all you get a chance to use.
Non Christians really dont want to be preached to, so you have to get your point across quickly and
consisely ; with any luck they will come back later for more or for an arguement(discussion !).
Thanks for the ones you quoted , some of my favourites.

cheers Chris.
Logged
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 60389


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 04:38:35 AM »

My current understanding is that God did change the rules :  Prior to Christs time we had to obey the 10C to be saved ; then after Christs death we could be saved through repentance,forgiveness,faith in Christ,accepting his gift etc.

WRT "Gods awesome wonderful plan" i do wonder exactly which part of bible history you are refering to.
What i see is an initial wonderful plan (gods creation in Eden) going horribly wrong and then a series of coping strategies.
I hope you arent suggesting that Satan and all the suffering he has bought to the world is part of this plan.

regards Chris.

Chris,

We must never forget that ALMIGHTY GOD knew all before the foundation of the world, and that includes HIM numbering the hairs on your head. HIS Power and infinite knowledge of all things for Eternity Past is very hard for us to think about and understand. HE knew even the most tiny details in Eternity past, including the precise time that each sparrow would fall from the sky.

SO, there is NO failure on GOD'S Part, and there isn't anything HE didn't already know millions of years ago. GOD doesn't make any mistakes. To bring this back to something we can grasp more easily, GOD knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do in eternity past. GOD intended to give mankind choice, and HE knew exactly what mankind would do with it. HE already knows how you will reply to this message. There is nothing hidden from GOD from Eternity past. I know this is hard to grasp, but there is no other way I know of to explain this. CHRIST knew that HE had an appointment at the CROSS before man was ever created. GOD knew all about satan before satan was created!

Saying that everything has and will occur according to GOD'S Plan is completely correct. HE obviously has the power to do as HE pleases in Heaven and on earth. HE could have created mankind as believers and obedient, but GOD wanted man to choose. GOD would NOT receive any Glory from robots. GOD wants love and obedience as a matter of choice. Going back to these basics about GOD makes many other things easier to understand. Here's a few ABSOLUTE basics to get started:

PERFECT
HOLY
CAN'T LIE
KNOWS ALL AND SEES ALL
CREATED ALL
INFINITE ALL POWERFUL
NO BEGINNING AND NO ENDING


Many of the answers about why GOD does certain things are answered in the Holy Bible, but the Bible really represents the minimum of what HE wants us to know. HE has Eternity to teach us and tell us the rest of what HE wants us to know. The CROSS was HIS biggest act of love toward us. NO greater love can be shown. So, we love HIM because HE first loved us! HIS patience and many other things are also evidence of HIS great love for us. HE is the ALMIGHTY GOD, and HE doesn't have to put up with a single act of rejection or disobedience. If you put these things together and think about them, you'll get back to that PERFECT PLAN again.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!
Logged

nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 60389


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 05:08:53 AM »

Replying to Pastor Rogers Reply 9 ;

Yes i do want one-liners because ,as i said before, thats often all you get a chance to use.
Non Christians really dont want to be preached to, so you have to get your point across quickly and
consisely ; with any luck they will come back later for more or for an arguement(discussion !).
Thanks for the ones you quoted , some of my favourites.

cheers Chris.

Hello Again Chris,

People won't accept one-liners for the same reasons why you didn't. You wind up spending as much or more time trying to explain the one-liners. If one-liners were appropriate and sufficient, GOD would have already given them to us.

The Holy Bible is very small for something so important, but it contains many answers that people want to know in making decisions. It answers your questions, but not with one sentence. However, I'll give you one sentence to see how you will react to it:

I AM the ONE GOD you will believe, accept, love, and obey - OR you will spend eternity in fire!
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2016 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media