Tongues

[bluelake]

Petro,
We seem to be in agreement on the tongues issue. May I ask you, have you attended a church where tongues were being spoken? I have and I was amazed and confused about the whole thing. However, I do think that if person does have this gift it should be used in their private devotions.
 What do you think?

God bless,
bluelake

[Tibby]

More personal attacks to avoid the topic, eh, Petro? Tossing insults around, when the bible has plenty to say about “showing love.” Quoting the verses are one things, Petro. But if you cannot display the great of commandments toward some you believe to be lost, when you can quote till you are blue in the face, but they are not going to accept what you have to say when you hurl such hurtful words at them. Why must we behave so petty? So, we disagree on a few things, does that call for spiteful behavior in every post we share? Can we disagree and discuses without the anger? If you need to vent your anti-Catholic fumes, PM me, but don’t bring your issues with me into every thread. Hey, I’m sorry if what I say offends you, I truly am. We live in a world where something as personal as convictions are offensive to others. The fact that my Christianity is offensive to you is regretful, but that doesn’t change the facts that I believe. Most of the regular members seem to ignore our bickering, it is the noobs who take notice.  So, I ask you, for the sake of peace on the board, and peace between us, deal with it and move on.

On the bright side, since Jason has gone missing, you have done a nice job of filling in for him. S4E would be proud.  

Anyways, back to topic, you have not quoted a single verse in relation to tongues. You quoted a verse relating to false teachers, but not tongues. It said nothing of tongues, even in context. I’m not looking for a fight in this topic, I’m just looking for verse applying to the fact that tongues are not for today, not the same as they are today, not acceptable in the fashion they are expressed today, etc.

[3wells]

Tibby,

I'm not defending Petro, and neither do I have any wish to offend you, but I find the things you are saying here somewhat hypocritical. You feel qualified to make comments about what kind of attitude charasmatics have and don't blink before making judgmental statements about them, and yet you get offended when your own denomination comes under fire. Forget Petro. Forget charasmatics. Work on your own attitude instead and maybe then you will be fit to identify the splinters in other denominations eyes.

[Tibby]

3Wells- I understand where you are coming from, however, Petro attacking my group is a bit different from me “judging” the Charismatic way. Old Petro and I have a bit of a history. We fought on my very first post here, and haven’t stopped. I have been Charismatic for a large chuck of my short life. Independent Charismatic. Being one for all this time, and only recently, in the past year or 2, following a more Liturgical route, taking the Charismatic with me, I think I am in a place to critique. Does being a member make someone more or less reliable of a critic? I know nothing of Petro’s Church history, but as for as he has implied, has never set foot in a Charismatic church, let alone a Charismatic Catholic church. Secondly, Petro’s attack of me is under different circumstances then my attack of the Charismatic. Petro’s, while very knowledgeable of the scripture, is also very Fundamentalist. And being the most vocal Catholic on the board, we don’t see eye to eye on the Church attend. He seems to take this personally. He goes out of his way to belittle me, and personally attack me, and the entire Catholic Church, when ever he can. I hold no grudge against my Charismatic brothers, nor to Petro. I do not attack them on every thread we share. Unless the issue is revenant to the topic at hand, I try to leave it in the thread it was discussed.

I understand what you are saying, bro, but the relationship between Petro and I is a bit complex. It isn't just this one thread. It is all of them.

[Petro]

tibby,

What offends you is the plain simple truth.

What else can I say..

Petro

[Tibby]

Who said I was offended? I just think we are being petty.

[Forrest]

Petro,
We seem to be in agreement on the tongues issue. May I ask you, have you attended a church where tongues were being spoken? I have and I was amazed and confused about the whole thing. However, I do think that if person does have this gift it should be used in their private devotions.
 What do you think?

God bless,
bluelake

1COR 14:21 In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1COR 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1COR 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

[Petro]

Who said I was offended? I just think we are being petty.

tibby,

I understand, you were just blowing smoke again.

Look, you are just a young kid, who still acts childish, but thinks he knows everything, we all have been there..

I answered your question in reply #29, if you were perceptive and understood the biblical teaching of tongues, you would be able to understand what I wrote, and you would not have to rely on "implied meanings", a sort of mysticism, the understanding of hidden teachings.

Nothing is hidden or implied, it is all out in the open, and clearly understood, this is why, we speak plainly concerning these things.

If you understood, you would not ask such a question.

As for my response to ebia's comment on the charasmatic movement with Catholicism, I was reffering to the fact that, the Catholic church rejects sound the teaching of scripture in favor, of observing traditions, which are contrary to scriptual teaching, and no catholic charasmatics, should take notice that if catholics who reject scriptural teachings manifest the same gifts that they (the speaking of tongues, catholic charasmatics manifest), this should be a sign, to the working of the great counterfieter, excersizing certain gifts given by the Holy Spirit, in a church which is built on non biblical traditions.

And whether, catholic or not catholic (it matters little), if these are manifested not in accordance with the Lords commandment, it is not of God.

Now, as for you wanting to know, if tongues is or is not for today, you clearly are asking for opinions, not scriptures, since if you knew what the scriptures teach, you would not ask other people, you would ask God in prayer.

It is clear you did not understand what I wrote afore, with few words, and I am willing to esplain it to you, in  simpler terms.

If you want my opinion, just tell me, what the charasmatics, do when they speak in tongues at your church?, and;

Does someone interpret??  and;

What are they doing, praying or prophecying in tongues?

And then I will show you, whether they are truly manifesting the gift of tongues according to the bible.

There is nothing implied in the verses that teach concernng this gift, in Gods Word.


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Petro,
We seem to be in agreement on the tongues issue. May I ask you, have you attended a church where tongues were being spoken? I have and I was amazed and confused about the whole thing. However, I do think that if person does have this gift it should be used in their private devotions.
 What do you think?

God bless,
bluelake

bluelake,

It is clear to me tongues is a gift with two aspects, which jabez, explained perfectly.

The one which deals with known languages, is the one which clearly is referenced, in Acts 2:8, when every man heard in thier own tongue wherein they were born.

In Acts 10:44-46, where Cornelius and his household were given the Holy Spirit, noone that heard asked "What did they say", the scriptutres are clear they heard and understood imediately what they said, when;

"..... they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify (God) Jesus."

And neither was there any need to interpret, what those who spoke in tongues at Ephesus, when they received the Holy Spirit, since they also, no doubt [magnified Jesus at Acts 19:1-4.

Now, the other aspect of tongues, that of speaking not to men, but to God in the spirit mysteries, which Paul says is unfruitful to the understanding is clearly man praying to God in the spirit, can that be done today?

I don't discount this since it is a gift, dispensed by the spirit, together with all other gifts, for the edification of the body, until that which is perfect comes.

The scripture is clear men are being made perfect, this is the work of God the Holy Spirit, which begins with Faith in God, and will end by Faith in Jesus, and the just shall live by Faith, and this gift does not cease (1 Cor 13:, until that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1Cor 13:10)

So the question which has got to be answered is;

What is it that is perfect that will com??

The scriptures say;

Jesus was made perfect through obedience to God, this is speaking of his human nature. (Heb 5:8-9)

We are adopted Sons, and we are perfect in Christ. (Heb 12:23)(Jhn 17:23)



God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect,.....
............. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(1Jhn 4:16-18)

Since we are in the body of Christ, and He has commanded that we should love one another, [that which is perfect which is to come may very well be speaking of the perfected spiritual body in one, and according to Heb 11:40, those who have died in faith are included, so my conclusion from what I understand is that perfection will occur when the whole body of Christ is brought into that perfection in the eternal state, thus tongues have not ceased, they are simply beeing misused, to be something that cause confusion and consternation within the body, when the gift should be used to edify the body, it simply has become a "schism", by virtue of it's misuse.

I have attended churches where this gift has been manifested, I have always tried to speak to them who  excersized this manifested gift, afterwards, an have never really found it to be manifested in a way which was obedient to the commandment, I simply chalked most all of them to a hoax.

If it exists, it should be observed in accordance with 1 Cor 14:26-40.

Tongues is not a sign for believers but for unbelievers.

And here is how, it is a sign.

When an unbeliever sees or hears persons praying, they know that person believes , in God, and knows he is speaking to Him.

Unbelievers never pray to God.



Blessings,

Petro

[Forrest]

tibby,

What offends you is the plain simple truth.

What else can I say..

Petro

     Petro;
    What is it with you, all they ask for is scripture is there not one?
     As for scripture on the other side of the topic.

       


Mark 16
10   And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11   And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12   After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13   And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14   Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17   And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18   They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19   So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

ACTS 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
ACTS 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10
45   And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

ACTS 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

1 Corinthians 12
25   That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26   And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27   Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29   Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30   Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31   But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13
1   Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2   And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3   And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5   Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6   Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8   Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13   And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

1COR 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

[Petro]

tibby,

What offends you is the plain simple truth.

What else can I say..

Petro

     Petro;
    What is it with you, all they ask for is scripture is there not one?
     As for scripture on the other side of the topic.

       

forrest,


The question;

Hey guys, can someone pass along a few anti-tongues verses? Verses showing Tongues isn’t for today, and things like that.

Cannot be answered with a verse, since there are no, anti-tongues verses.

Tibby doesn't know this, that is why he is asking for an anti-tongues verse.

Do you have a verse?  Share it with him...

So consequently, anything which appears as though it is a manifestation of this gift, will confuse him, so it is easier, to explain it to him, by having him, post what it is he is hearing and seeing, and compare it to scripture, to help him determine if it is a hoax, or in accordance with Gods Word.

I explained this clearly, but he didn't undedrstand it this is why, he asked again the same Q....

Blessings,
Petro

[Tibby]

Who said I was offended? I just think we are being petty.

tibby,

I understand, you were just blowing smoke again.

Not really, I just don’t see why we have to bicker all the time.

Look, you are just a young kid, who still acts childish, but thinks he knows everything, we all have been there..

I answered your question in reply #29, if you were perceptive and understood the biblical teaching of tongues, you would be able to understand what I wrote, and you would not have to rely on "implied meanings", a sort of mysticism, the understanding of hidden teachings.

Nothing is hidden or implied, it is all out in the open, and clearly understood, this is why, we speak plainly concerning these things.

If you understood, you would not ask such a question.

As for my response to ebia's comment on the charasmatic movement with Catholicism, I was reffering to the fact that, the Catholic church rejects sound the teaching of scripture in favor, of observing traditions, which are contrary to scriptual teaching, and no catholic charasmatics, should take notice that if catholics who reject scriptural teachings manifest the same gifts that they (the speaking of tongues, catholic charasmatics manifest), this should be a sign, to the working of the great counterfieter, excersizing certain gifts given by the Holy Spirit, in a church which is built on non biblical traditions.

And whether, catholic or not catholic (it matters little), if these are manifested not in accordance with the Lords commandment, it is not of God.

Now, as for you wanting to know, if tongues is or is not for today, you clearly are asking for opinions, not scriptures, since if you knew what the scriptures teach, you would not ask other people, you would ask God in prayer.

It is clear you did not understand what I wrote afore, with few words, and I am willing to esplain it to you, in  simpler terms.

If you want my opinion, just tell me, what the charasmatics, do when they speak in tongues at your church?, and;

Does someone interpret??  and;

What are they doing, praying or prophecying in tongues?

And then I will show you, whether they are truly manifesting the gift of tongues according to the bible.

There is nothing implied in the verses that teach concernng this gift, in Gods Word.


Blessings,

Petro

At my church, we don’t speak in tongues in front of the Congregation. People are welcome to, but they know the rules, interpretation of tongues is clearly stated in the bible.

[Petro]

tibby,

What offends you is the plain simple truth.

What else can I say..

Petro

     Petro;
    What is it with you, all they ask for is scripture is there not one?
     As for scripture on the other side of the topic.

       


Mark 16
10   And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11   And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12   After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13   And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14   Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17   And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18   They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19   So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

ACTS 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
ACTS 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10
45   And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

ACTS 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

1 Corinthians 12
25   That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26   And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27   Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29   Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30   Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31   But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13
1   Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2   And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3   And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5   Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6   Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8   Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13   And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

1COR 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

forrest,

I agree with scripture.

The verse you posted (1Cor 14:39) is not an anti-tongues verse, it is a pro-tongues verse, if anything.


Blessings,
Petro

[Forrest]

       Petro;
     I'm sorry that I aparently missunderstood your stand, the scripture are pro tongues though I myself do not have the gift. I have been told repeatedly that tongues were done away with, and not for today yet when pushed they have no scripture to stand on, yet many for tongues.

[Tibby]

Cannot be answered with a verse, since there are no, anti-tongues verses.

Thank you. That is all you had to say. And look, you said it without trashing me!

Tibby doesn't know this, that is why he is asking for an anti-tongues verse.

Do you have a verse?  Share it with him...

So consequently, anything which appears as though it is a manifestation of this gift, will confuse him, so it is easier, to explain it to him, by having him, post what it is he is hearing and seeing, and compare it to scripture, to help him determine if it is a hoax, or in accordance with Gods Word.

Ok, nevermind.

lol j/k

I explained this clearly, but he didn't undedrstand it this is why, he asked again the same Q....

Blessings,
Petro

There was nothing clear about it. Sorry, bro.