thou shalt not kill

[Littleboy]

I would have to agree with the pastor & the Brother.
If someone was going to kill me because of the word of God?
I would take it patiently as our lord has shown us to do...
But to die or let a loved one die at the hands of a rapist or robber or some other godless puke!
I Don't think so, Pray that i'm not put in that position!!!
My grandpa was Murdered when my dad was 7 yrs. old, and the person was never caught.
I rely on my God for justice and nobody shall escape it:
Good or Bad, all shall be rewarded/condemned for what we've done/do..

[Soldier4Christ]

There is a difference between murder and taking someones life (killing). This is not just according to man's laws but also according to God. Murdering someone is to take their life without a cause and often so with malice (hatred). If the brakes on our car go out without any prior indication of them being bad it is not murder if someone loses their life. If a person starts purposefully shooting people (as has been done in many schools across the world) and the only means to stop them from doing so is by killing them it is not murder. If a Soldier or Police Officer must kill someone to prevent a heinous act by another person it is not murder. If a person breaks into your hope and attempts to murder you or your family and the only means to stop them is by killing them it is not murder.

Yes, we are to love our enemies but that does mean that we are not to prevent evil from taking over the world.

I do not wish anyone dead. I do wish that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. When a person takes actions of evil intent and those actions require their death to prevent them from harming others then their blood is on their own hands.

I have a number of writings that go with the subject. As soon as I locate them in my files I will post them here.

[Soldier4Christ]

I have been asked numerous times if it is right for a Christian to be a combat soldier, to kill in combat. In fact this is a question that I had to ask for myself before I decided to join the military.

Nehemiah, a great prophet of God said, "Neh 4:14 And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. "

Some people support the belief that as a Christian we are to be pacifists. Using scripture such as "Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." and " Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. " to support their belief. Based on these verses and others such as Luk 3:14 and Mat 26:52 they stand by the belief that the New Testament teachings are of pacificism.

When the verse (Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)is taken by itself it does appear that Jesus is teaching complete pacifism. If we look at this verse and study its complete meaning we find that He is talking about civil matters between two individuals. The statement "smite thee on thy right cheek" was used in that time as an indication of an applied insult between two people. Not a physical threat to do bodily harm.

Reading further into the next verse (Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.) we can see that Jesus is talking about civil matters, matters of the legal process and how to avoid staying out of courts.

If we are to apply this to matters of war then is when we have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself or that God has changed. There are no contradictions in scriptures there are misunderstandings in mans mind of them. We know that neither are true because God never changes:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In regards to Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

John is telling the Soldier to be a good soldier, not one that is using unnecessary force or wrongly accusing someone. After all he did not tell the soldier to quit being a soldier which is evidenced by his statement "be content with your wages". The soldiers at that time were being offered a bounty in addition to their wages for each person that they brought in that was in defiance of the laws. Many of them were beating up and wrongly accusing individuals in order to collect this extra money. This is what John was talking about, not pacifism.

In the verse "Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." it was in reference of going against the local authorities and in reference to stopping the soldiers from taking Jesus. Jesus knew what was required of Him and that such an action would prevent His going to the cross as is evidenced in the verses that followed this one.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Complete pacifism is a non biblical position. Although being able to appeal to superficial arguments of conscience and quote the odd verse out of content - the whole spirit and thrust of pacifism is anti Christian. Pacifists may be sincere - but they are sincerely wrong.

A Christian, by definition, must be active - with his or her sleeves rolled up, being willing to get his hands dirty protecting the innocent, defending the defenceless and saving lives from unprovoked aggression. Christian love is not mere words and sentiments. True love shows itself in action. (1 John 3:18). If all Christians refuse to fight then it will leave the battle fields in the hands of men without a conscience.

cont'd

[Soldier4Christ]

Pacifism finds it's rots in HUMANISM. Despite some impressive but superficial Christian pretension, pacifism is humanism. In common with humanism, pacifism shares a false idea of man. It sees man as basically good. To the pacifist all people are just too good to kill. Neither rapists, murderers nor terrorists deserve to be stopped, in the view of the pacifist.
In contrast to this notion of people being basically good, the Bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful;that they are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go... everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. (Romans 3:15,23) Pacifists often display more concern for the aggressor than for the defender, more sympathy for the criminal than for his victim.

Our Lord Jesus may have been meek but He was never mild! His teaching was powerful, dynamic, direct and uncompromising. This tough carpenter from Nazareth was able to survive forty days fasting in the desert and forty lashes from the brutal Roman whip. He could walk hundreds of kilometers in the blazing heat of Palestine's inhospitable terrain and He could walk through a murderous mob with such a presence that no-one dared stop Him (Luke 4:28-30).
When Jesus saw how corrupt men were desecrating the temple with their money-grabbing greed, He made a whip, overturned their tables and drove them forcibly from God's House (Matthew 21:12-13).

Jesus told His disciples, "Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

When Jesus returns to this world it will be as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Bible teaches us that the first time Jesus came as a Saviour - and all who turn from their sin and trust in Christ, following Him in obedience, are saved. But when Jesus comes again it will be as Judge - and all who have not repented and obeyed will be condemned and eternally punished. The Scripture warns us that when Jesus returns He will annihilate the forces of the false church and the Antichrist. We are told that rivers of blood will flow from the carnage of mankind's rebellion against Christ (Revelation 14:19-20).

"....... and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11,15,16).

Pacifism also has an unrealistic view of society. The reality of this world is that it is a fallen world, inhabited by sinful mankind in rebellion against the Creator. Idealistic fantasies about a world of peace and Utopia without war are cruelly false and dangerously deceptive. In the Bible we are warned that those who say 'Peace! Peace!' when there is no peace are 'loathsome' false prophets (Jeremiah 6:!4; 8:11). Jesus warned us that 'wars and revolutions' would increase (Matthew 24:6,7; Luke 21:9,10). We are warned in the scriptures that 'While people are saying 'Peace and Safety', destruction will come on them suddenly.' (I Thessalonians 5:3)

'PEACE' seems to be the modern equivalent of Baal worship. There is an irrational worship of peace. This selfish materialistic age has made an idol out of peace. 'Peace at any price' inevitably leads to tyranny and destruction - the peace of a graveyard.

People say that war is hell - but often peace is worse. More people died in the peace following the revolution in CAMBODIA than died in the entire war before it. Three-milion Cambodians (40% of the population) were slaughtered by Pol Pot's Marxist Khmer Rouge in the 'peace' following 1975. In fact, more people have been tortured, maimed and massacred in times of peace than in times of war during the last century!

Have we become so soft, decadent and self-seeking that we are no longer willing to risk our lives for anything? Is nothing worth fighting for? Do we have nothing worth defending? Do we care so little for others that we're unwilling to risk anything for their protection? Are we so engrossed in watching videos, in 'wine, women and song' that we can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong? Or don't we even care?

For centuries Christians have believed that there were worse things than war. For our ancestors death in battle was not the worst thing that could happen to them. An eternity in hell was. They did not fear death. They feared God. They realised that death for the Christian is not fatal. They had a clear belief in eternal life. Principles were more important then personal safety. Duty, honor, country, family and God meant more to them than selfish desires for peace and safety. And thank God for that because the faith and freedoms we enjoy were won and preserved by their blood, sweat and sacrifices.

The wise Christian does not seek to selfishly avoid the problems of this world, but courageously steps out in faith to be part of the solution. We should recognize that sinful man needs to be restrained by laws and by force, that liberty needs to be defended, that our freedoms came through, and often need to be maintained by hard fighting.

If all Christians became pacifists, would all non-Christians also become pacifists?
Not likely.

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism - while the wolf remains of a different opinion (-W. R. Inge). The Bible declares: 'Blessed are the peacemakers' - Matthew 5:9. NOT blessed are the pacifists! You have to make peace. It takes action. For the pacifists hoping for worldwide peace - Jesus said: 'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' (Matthew 10:34)

[HisDaughter]

Actually, no I don't hate DW wife's murderer.  I think it's wonderful and awesome that DW could forgive him and lead him to Christ and that the man is now sharing the gospel in prison.  Nothing excites me more than when one more comes to Christ!  The alter call is my favorite part of any service.  It is only in the case of children that I get so riled up and sick to my stomach.  That is why I asked the question in the first place.  It's something that I really struggle with.  Especially since we are to, "Judge not" and God says, "Vengeance is Mine" so I know this is something that I need to leave in God's hands.  Knowing that God will prevail and that, "All knees will bow" is where I get my peace from or a lest being able to cope with it and hang on.  But it still makes me incredably angry when I hear of these poor children again and again and again.

[HisDaughter]

Thank you Pastor Roger!  That was fabulous and clear!

[nChrist]

Another Amen Pastor Roger!

I was just thinking that I know GOD many times uses the strong to protect and care for the weak, the ill, the elderly, and the children. I was also thinking about a Christian man protecting his family or a Christian woman protecting her children. YES - I would give up my life to protect my family or in many other circumstances. However, that doesn't mean that I would give up my life without a fight. If I did that, who would be left to defend my family? It is right for me to defend my family, and it's also right for Christians to serve as soldiers, police officers, and many other dangerous occupations.

You are completely right about pacifists being more identified with humanism. We can see countless examples of GOD'S Warriors throughout the Bible. This does not hint that we should enjoy violence, rather that it is right to protect the weak from injustice. For the reasons you mentioned, I know that GOD has a worthy use for Christians in service to others.

Love In Christ,
Tom

KEEP LOOKING UP!!

[Jimacki]

I believe there is no justification for any killing. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek and even by His own example of how He lived without reviling or fighting back in any instant. 1 Peter 2:18-25 is an excellent scripture for this. Luke 3:14  "And the soldiers likewise, demanded of him saying, and what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"

As Christians we are to be Christ-like, and in no instant under any circumstances did Christ allow killing.

[Soldier4Christ]

I can clearly see that you have not read this entire thread and are relying on just a few verses for your stance and not placing them in the context that they were given.

He did not turn the other cheek in dealing with the money changers that blasphemed the temple. Jesus had no need to protect Himself in such a manner either. He could have had a legion of Angels at a split seconds notice. Instead He chose to go to the cross for us. Without that choice we all would still be lost. One day He will return and He won't be turning the other cheek in dealing with those that have rejected Him. It will be with a sword of wrath.

[Shammu]

I believe there is no justification for any killing. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek and even by His own example of how He lived without reviling or fighting back in any instant. 1 Peter 2:18-25 is an excellent scripture for this. Luke 3:14  "And the soldiers likewise, demanded of him saying, and what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"

As Christians we are to be Christ-like, and in no instant under any circumstances did Christ allow killing.

So if you, yourself are threated by death you will not defend yourself. Thats what I am reading.

Since the 60’s, in the US, there has been a dramatic increase in crime rates yet we should not forget that common dangers and evil have existed in every generation. Can you be true to your faith and yet be forceful, aggressive or even violent? Maybe being passive isn’t the acceptable way to deal with threats? Consider how improving your physical fitness and personal faith in Christ go hand-in-hand in not only keeping yourself and your family safe, but also those around you.

Consider what is good and reasonable from both a faith and legal perspective. Sometimes the biblical concept of “Turn the other cheek” (which guides us to have a spirit of no retribution and to forgive) is incorrectly used. It doesn’t mean you’re NOT to defend yourself.

Read the full verse in context now.

Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.

The verse provides instruction on how to respond to an insult or provocation (ie. backhanded slap to the cheek). Not a violent assault. Today’s equivalent would be a shove or getting spit on. In this case we have every moral and legal obligation to walk away or try to calm the situation. The Bible provides guidance that leads us to spiritual maturity. Can you forgive and pray for your enemy? With any use-of-force, self defense case a judge and jury will consider what you did to avoid or diffuse the situation and any force used (including deadly force) must have been reasonable.

Jesus taught us about love and compassion, even for our enemies. But he also confronted the leaders of his day with boldness. He overturned tables and cleared the temple of vendors with a makeshift whip! He did it righteously and without sin.

Just before his arrest and execution, Jesus gave some final instruction to the apostles who were with him. He had often sent them out to surrounding towns telling them to go with nothing.  (This isn’t the passive image of Jesus you have created.) Yet, they would draw their weapons for defense during the arrest of Jesus. Peter struck out with his weapon and cut off the ear of a Malchus.

Matthew 26:50-52 Jesus said to him, Friend, for what are you here? Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and arrested Him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and, striking the body servant of the high priest, cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

I would guess he was aiming for more than the Malchus’s ear. Jesus told them to put their weapons away or they would die fighting. He knew the arrest was in God’s timing and plan. Jesus had also stated that there was no greater love than to lay down your life for another, the ultimate sacrifice.

[nChrist]

I believe there is no justification for any killing. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek and even by His own example of how He lived without reviling or fighting back in any instant. 1 Peter 2:18-25 is an excellent scripture for this. Luke 3:14  "And the soldiers likewise, demanded of him saying, and what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"

As Christians we are to be Christ-like, and in no instant under any circumstances did Christ allow killing.

Hello Jimacki,

You need to put Scripture into context and understand the meaning by the specific time and circumstances. GOD has ordered HIS armies into battle many times throughout history, and many people were killed. At the Second Coming of CHRIST, JESUS CHRIST Himself will kill MILLIONS, and that time might be soon.

Sooner or later, you will be in a situation worthy of your defending someone else - maybe even your own children or grandchildren. There won't always be someone else to defend them for you or someone to call like the police. If the circumstances are worthy, you will be wrong if you neglect your duty. Please do go back and carefully read this entire thread. Nobody here is suggesting violence over an insult or a civil matter. Surely you wouldn't watch and do nothing while a madman was butchering a child, would you? You would be WRONG if you did.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:11-13 NASB
This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.

[Jimacki]

I did read the thread. And no my scriptures were not taken out of context. I gave a quick response to a quick question to which we could do a very lengthy study on. Of which multiple scriptures show under the New Covenent we are to Love our enemies. And that Love is God and the foundation of our faith. A faith which worketh by Love. An unconditional Love I found is the only way to heal, no matter what the situation. I speak from experience. Love does not kill in any situation.

[David_james]

I did read the thread. And no my scriptures were not taken out of context. I gave a quick response to a quick question to which we could do a very lengthy study on. Of which multiple scriptures show under the New Covenent we are to Love our enemies. And that Love is God and the foundation of our faith. A faith which worketh by Love. An unconditional Love I found is the only way to heal, no matter what the situation. I speak from experience. Love does not kill in any situation.

Okay so what would you do if someone was attacking someone you care about?

[Soldier4Christ]

This is something that many in the anti-war group does not comprehend  ... to be able to love your neighbor yet at the same time be able to kill those that refuse to be peaceful with others.

Let's look at one of the verses that you gave,

Luk 3:14  And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


violence = diaseiō   This Greek word means "to intimidate", "to shake thoroughly". This is the only time this word is used in the New Testament. This is a Greek word that shows in many old non-scripture manuscripts that indicate a Soldiers misuse of their position such as "to shake (seismic disturbance, earthquake) thoroughly (dia) and so thoroughly to terrify, to extort money or property by intimidating". It is obvious that this is speaking of not misusing the Soldiers position against those that are not opposing them, those that are compliant with civil peace. A Soldiers job is to kill when it is absolutely necessary. Take note that this Soldier was not told to give up his position as a Soldier.

We also see in Acts 10 where a Centurion (Soldier) was considered to be a great man of God, a Soldier that had killed or ordered those to be killed. Again this Soldier was not told to stop being a Soldier.

Yes, Jesus forgave murderers and adulterers in the New Testament because they were repentant but He also said that those that are not repentant will face death.

[Jimacki]

I was asked what would I do if someone I cared about was attacked ?  The only way I know how to respond to that question is to ask how would Jesus react or how did the disciples and apostles react in scripture.
Violence, bitterness, and anger were all a part of my past to the point where anger was an addiction, and I did end up in prison for a long term for it.( I deserved it )
And now for me to react with any anger in any situation is something I can not do, I will not fall back into my old ways and a person can live an anger free life through Christ, as impossible as this seems. Things that are impossible with men are possible with God !! Amen!!