thou shalt not kill

[Soldier4Christ]

Herein lies the problem that many have. Being able to react to stop the violence of others without feeling anger towards the attacker. Anger usually turns one from a defender into an aggressor. What I mean by this is that a person in anger goes further than is necessary to stop the aggressor. When a person is a defender and has love for all they will do only what is absolutely necessary to stop the aggressor and to protect those being attacked. This is showing love for the aggressor as will as the victim. After all if there is love for all then we would not want even the aggressor to become a murderer and have to face the consequences of such. Unfortunately there comes a time that the only way to stop an aggressor is to kill them because of the anger and hatred that they have and the determination they have for killing others.

I do not want to see anyone die under any circumstances, especially so without coming to the Lord first and definitely not by my own hands. I would rather though see that happen than to see someone else that is innocent, perhaps a child, be killed or tormented by the attacker. I will not, cannot stand by and do nothing if another persons life is in danger. That would make me just as guilty as the attacker.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[HisDaughter]

Amen to that Pastor Roger!  And again, well stated!  Thanks.

[David_james]

Amen brother Roger.

My question has not been answered.

You hold back the attacker, however the attacker is stronger and attacks you. Your friend, if not too hurt, helps you. Both of you try to run but he faster, there is no calling police. Would you kill him? You can't let him both of you.

[Littleboy]

It takes a strong & faithfull man to do that,
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss...
My grandfather was murdered in the 1940's and no bodies ever been caught...
I've thought about that person before & have prayed for him too,
I have full confiedance in the Judgment & Mercy of our God!
One of my cousins was murdered by an illegal alien about 10 yrs ago...
My family has fought & died for this country, before its begining, and they did'nt go
thru all that for nothing OR have they?
It's allright though our day is coming and so is theirs, unless they comply!

[nChrist]

It takes a strong & faithfull man to do that,
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss...
My grandfather was murdered in the 1940's and no bodies ever been caught...
I've thought about that person before & have prayed for him too,
I have full confiedance in the Judgment & Mercy of our God!
One of my cousins was murdered by an illegal alien about 10 yrs ago...
My family has fought & died for this country, before its begining, and they did'nt go
thru all that for nothing OR have they?
It's allright though our day is coming and so is theirs, unless they comply!

Hello Littleboy,

The people who fought for freedom and to end oppression will never be forgotten. Not a drop of their sweat and blood was in vain. It appears that we have more than one conversation going on here. The subject is legal and authorized force, not illegal violence. There are also very specific Bible instructions that apply.

There isn't any Bible instruction that prevents reasonable defense and protection of the innocent. GOD was never wrong in sending HIS armies into battle, and JESUS CHRIST won't be wrong at HIS SECOND COMING.

We weren't talking about senseless violence or acts that are against the law. King David and countless others considered to be GOD'S Warriors were NOT wrong unless GOD specifically said they were wrong. We certainly won't be calling GOD wrong or calling JESUS CHRIST wrong at HIS SECOND COMING. GOD wasn't wrong with the flood either. There is a big difference between lawful and unlawful actions. The Bible tells us to render under Caesar what is his, and part of that might involve being drafted into military service. However, we have an all volunteer military, and being a soldier is a lawful and honorable profession. Soldiers also have laws to obey. If they violate those laws, they will be punished. I would like to repeat that the subject of this thread IS NOT illegal, unnecessary, or senseless force. Maybe this will help us all get on the right sheet of music. Jimacki, does this help you out some?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB
"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

[Rhys]

What should Christian feel about Capital Punishment?

I don't believe the Bible forbids capital punishment, but I have two concerns about it:

1. As other have mentioned, it doesn't allow the person a chance to repent and come to know Christ. You are essentially sending someone to Hell.

2. The number of people released in recent years due to DNA evidence has sapped my faith in the Judicial system to convict the right people. Too often the authorities just seem to be in a hurry to arrest and convict someone and move on. If some evidence comes up that throws doubt on the conviction, they resist reopening the case whether or not an innocent man is in prison. If the person is executed beforehand, you are essentially killing an innocent person for a crime someone else committed.

I would limit capital punishment to extremely horrible crimes, and even then only to those where there is absolutely no doubt who is guilty.

[Brother Jerry]

Rhys...
On point #2 you cannot fault the judicial system for ignorance of something that was not even invented.  DNA evidence is a relatively new technology.  And as far as cases of people being released because of it, are old cases and the people were put away because the evidence pointed to them, and a jury of their peers said they did it.  The judicial system we have works, are there problems with it?  Yes...it takes far to long for appeals to be heard, someone can appeal far too many times.  And we do not put enough money into the penal system to house the prisoners so instead we let them go back out into the street. 

There is crime in other countries.  But in other countries where they are ALOT tougher on their criminals they have alot less crime of that sort.  In Egypt if you are drinking and driving...you can be punished by death...they have very little drinking and driving.  I personally think that is a bit excessive...however if you have a judicial system that acts upon what it says it will do...20 years for a crime should mean 20 years, not 5.  Then crime would go down.

[Rhys]

Rhys...
On point #2 you cannot fault the judicial system for ignorance of something that was not even invented.  DNA evidence is a relatively new technology.  And as far as cases of people being released because of it, are old cases and the people were put away because the evidence pointed to them, and a jury of their peers said they did it.  The judicial system we have works, are there problems with it?  Yes...it takes far to long for appeals to be heard, someone can appeal far too many times.  And we do not put enough money into the penal system to house the prisoners so instead we let them go back out into the street. 

There is crime in other countries.  But in other countries where they are ALOT tougher on their criminals they have alot less crime of that sort.  In Egypt if you are drinking and driving...you can be punished by death...they have very little drinking and driving.  I personally think that is a bit excessive...however if you have a judicial system that acts upon what it says it will do...20 years for a crime should mean 20 years, not 5.  Then crime would go down.

I can fault them for not thoroughly investigating the crimes to begin with and for not fairly trying them. In most of these cases there was other evidence that would cast doubt upon the verdict, but it was withheld by the prosecution to get a verdict or kept out of court on technicalities. Often the person accused couldn't afford a competent lawyer.

The judicial system also spends way too much time on trivia and technicalities and seems to have little interest in determining the truth.

As far as not putting enough money into the penal system, I believe we already have a higher proportion of our population in jail than any other country. Prison should only be for violent crimes, those involving arms, and people who are a danger to society. Others should be made to pay restitution as the Bible states, and/or work at community service - not the pleasant kind but hard manual labor.

As to appeals and the time it takes, I agree - and even a first trial takes way too long to get to. But part of this is that we have way too many laws. We are trying to regulate every aspect of human behavior with laws, and many are passed to please special interest groups. As an old Chinese proverb says: "The more laws there are the more lawbreakers there will be". If we got rid of about 3/4 of our laws the courts would be freed up to try the important ones at a much quicker pace, with much less "plea bargaining".

Courts often aren't fair and appeals are necessary. Don't forget the Apostle Paul used the appeals process of his time.

Tougher penalties don't necessarily cut crime. Death for drinking and driving is excessive to say the least. When I lived in Nova Scotia years ago they could confiscate your car and sell it for even having an open container. You didn't get the money. There were very few drunk driving accidents.

What does cut crime is a clear and quick relationship between crime and punishment. When years drag by before a sentence is passed, everyone has forgotten about the crime. Meantime the person is usually out on the street so it looks like nothing happened to them. Even if convicted they often are soon back out due to prison overcrowding. I agree fully with you that 20 years should be 20 years, and I further believe concurrent sentencing should be done away with. But I still disagree with the death penalty as once a person is dead there is no remedy if the courts made a mistake, which they too often do.

[Littleboy]

Hi Brother Tom,
I think that ii've been mis-understood Brother ?
The strong and faithful man was for the man who lost his wife & was able to forgive the guy that did it & did alot of other things with him..
I just thought that was pretty strong of a person, I could'nt do it...
I said this before on a different reply:
If it was for the word of God (like being made to take the mark 666) I would die as my lord did 'without a fight"
If it was just some puke !
Lord knows I would kill, I would also die for a friend...
I know all about how God works when it comes to his wars...
I've been telling people for over 30 yrs. about Joshua's battles where God had them kill everyone, even their animals..
And i did'nt say anything about soldiers,brother
Do you really believe that people remember?
Look around this country is going to hell in a hand basket, An old war hero can't even get a free cup of coffee these days,
That isn't what my family died for...

Now to the ? @ hand:
David J, i'm wondering something, IF me & my friend could'nt over power this strong man in the begining of your ?
and now my friend could be hurt & we've been running too!
I doubt if i would be in any condition to fight, let alone kill anyone!
I would if i had too!
A loving brother Duane

[David_james]

Now to the ? @ hand:
David J, i'm wondering something, IF me & my friend could'nt over power this strong man in the begining of your ?
and now my friend could be hurt & we've been running too!
I doubt if i would be in any condition to fight, let alone kill anyone!
I would if i had too!
A loving brother Duane

True, point is that you would continue to fight.

[Littleboy]

Without a doubt, Brother!

[Eva]

There is a difference between murder and taking someones life (killing). This is not just according to man's laws but also according to God. Murdering someone is to take their life without a cause and often so with malice (hatred). If the brakes on our car go out without any prior indication of them being bad it is not murder if someone loses their life. If a person starts purposefully shooting people (as has been done in many schools across the world) and the only means to stop them from doing so is by killing them it is not murder. If a Soldier or Police Officer must kill someone to prevent a heinous act by another person it is not murder. If a person breaks into your hope and attempts to murder you or your family and the only means to stop them is by killing them it is not murder.

Yes, we are to love our enemies but that does mean that we are not to prevent evil from taking over the world.

I do not wish anyone dead. I do wish that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. When a person takes actions of evil intent and those actions require their death to prevent them from harming others then their blood is on their own hands.

I have a number of writings that go with the subject. As soon as I locate them in my files I will post them here.

What an excellent distinction between killing and murder.  Thank you so much for your insight. God Bless, Eva

[Shammu]

Hi Brother Tom,
I think that ii've been mis-understood Brother ?
The strong and faithful man was for the man who lost his wife & was able to forgive the guy that did it & did alot of other things with him..
I just thought that was pretty strong of a person, I could'nt do it...

Jesus asks us to forgive, thats all I have done. Yes I brought him to Christ but, I couldn't do it without forgiveness. Chances are you can do it as well by forgiving someone.

Chances are you won't understand my decision, unless you have walked in my shoes. I also pray none of y'all ever have to either. Through my decision was hard, God has given me another wife..... Lizzie.

And I've never been happier, praise Jesus.

[nChrist]

Hello Littleboy,

I didn't misunderstand you. I know that we are really having three or four different conversations in the same thread. That makes things pretty confusing unless you reply specifically with a quote. Some are talking about soldiers on a battlefield - some about capital punishment - some about defending your family in your own home - and maybe more. Quite a few of us on the forum spent most of our lives in dangerous occupations protecting and defending the innocent. I'm almost sure that we have members from all of the armed forces, and I know that we have at least one police officer.

We also have a wonderful example of forgiveness in this thread, so this is one of those (multi)multi-faceted threads.  I don't know how many "multi multi" is right now, and it might be a matter of opinion about how many conversations we have going at once.   

I'll just say that I give thanks that I didn't have to kill anyone in 25 years of police work. It came close numerous times, and I was ready and able with all of the moral and Biblical issues already worked out and settled in my heart and mind. I would not have enjoyed taking someone's life, but I would have done my duty. I know that Christians in the military must also have these issues settled. One doesn't have a week to make a decision on the street or on the battlefield.

Love In Christ,
Tom

KEEP LOOKING UP!!

[HisDaughter]

I would limit capital punishment to extremely horrible crimes, and even then only to those where there is absolutely no doubt who is guilty.
Quote from Rhys

I actually have to agree with this statement.  And the only ones I feel that it would apply to is those who've been caught harming the children.  This is heinous and I truly believe we are at "war" with it so it's justified.  Read the news.  It's there every singel day.
Of course as a Christian with a HUGE heart and much compassion I want everyone that can come, to be with the Lord.  Somehow I find it easier to forgive murder of many different degrees and even to pray for their souls.  But molesting, raping and killing babies, I cannot.  And one reason I cannot, as I've said before, is that the stats show that sex offenders will continue in their sick perversion if let out of prison.  I also don't think it is unfair for the victims and society in general to have to support them while they sit in prison reading, watching TV, playing ping pong, card, checkers, etc, etc. while destruction of the worst kind is laying behind them.
I am so sick of hearing about the perps rights also, and the unfair treatment they get in prison.  They LOST THEIR RIGHTS!  They should have no rights.  Null and void.  CANCELED.