the sabbath ( what day saterday or sunday)

[2nd Timothy]

2nd Timothy, I keep the Sabbath out of obedience to God,

Can you show me in the NT where it says the CHURCH is required to keep a sabbath?

But since it also says not to judge a person based on the worship day, then I assume that also means that I shouldn't be judged on my Sabbath Keeping either.

Can I ask who do feel judged you by this...

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them

Are these my words?  And if you feel judged by Gods word, do you think you are in agreement with this word?

Blessings!

[Shammu]

I am at Church everyday, so to me the Sabbath is everyday not just one day it is everyday.

The Sabbath is a weekly religious day of rest as ordained by the Ten Commandments. Since we are in the age of Grace, we do not follow the Ten Commandments. As Jesus said, John 13:34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

Though we have a new commandment, does this mean we shouldn't try to follow the ten commandments?  Yes we should try..... Try because we as Christians should be Christ like, in as many ways as possible.

Though no one can follow the Law of Moses. John 1:17 For while the Law was given through Moses, grace ( unearned, undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Acts 13:39 And that through Him everyone who believes [who acknowledges Jesus as his Savior and devotes himself to Him] is absolved (cleared and freed) from every charge from which he could not be justified and freed by the Law of Moses and given right standing with God.

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God).

[Brother Jerry]

Agreed.  The Sabbath day is the last day of the week, Saturday.  However the Sabbath is for Jews.

Exodus 31:13 ..."Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations..."
Exodus 31:16 ..."Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath"...

Those are but a couple of many verses that emphasize that the sabbath is a holy day only unto the Jews.  And is part of their Law and not the Law of Grace under Christ.  One cannot deny that Jesus rebuked the Jews concerning working on the Sabbath.  We as Christians are not under the Law but under Grace.  And therefore do not have to follow the strict observance of the Sabbath. 

[Jemdude]

Proving that the early Church kept Saturday is easy. There is NO specific commandment to keep Sunday. If the early church was mostly composed of Jews who kept the Sabbath for thousands of years, then the Church would have to have given a specific commandment to keep Sunday. The lack of such a command would indicate that no change took place.

If such a change did take place, there would have been massive protests. Both the Messianic Jewish followers within the church and the pharisees would have massively protested such a change. The idea that the church can make a change like that without an incident is impossible. As I said, if the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jews changed their day of worship, it would be big news. If the various Catholic and Protestant churches changed their day of worship from Sunday to Saturday or another day, it would be big news as well. It's just plain impossible to make a change like that without a specific commandment, and a lot of people saying something about it.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Jemdude,

Now you are talking about traditions. Yes, some people have a hard time with accepting changes in traditions. As has already been pointed out to you with scripture the Sabbath observance was a shadow of things to come. It was not necessary to have a commandment to change it. It was changed with Christ on the cross.

Joh 1:17  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

With Christ as our Saviour we are in the temple everyday. (1Co 3:16 ) We should be worshiping Him accordingly everyday. There is nothing wrong with gathering with others in true worship of Him on the Sabbath. Nor is there anything wrong with gathering together in worship of Him on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or any other day of the week. As Christians we are not bound by the Laws of the Old Testament as the law now abides in our hearts continually, not just on the Sabbath but everyday of the week.


Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8  Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

[Jemdude]

Well Pastor Roger, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just don't believe that after thousands of years of keeping the Saturday Sabbath, that a change in the day of worship could take place without a specific commandment to do so, and without it being big news. The idea that such a change took place quietly without incident is something that simply cannot be done.

The Messianic Jews believed that circumcision was compulsory for the gentiles. The Apostle Paul had to specifically tell them that was not so.

You act as if the Sabbath is some kind of legalistic thing. Not to me. After 6 days of hard work, I look forward to the Sabbath. To me, it's the best day of the week that I look forward to.

[Jemdude]

Agreed.  The Sabbath day is the last day of the week, Saturday.  However the Sabbath is for Jews.

Exodus 31:13 ..."Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations..."
Exodus 31:16 ..."Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath"...

Those are but a couple of many verses that emphasize that the sabbath is a holy day only unto the Jews.  And is part of their Law and not the Law of Grace under Christ.  One cannot deny that Jesus rebuked the Jews concerning working on the Sabbath.  We as Christians are not under the Law but under Grace.  And therefore do not have to follow the strict observance of the Sabbath. 

The Sabbath was given at creation week, long before there were any Jews.

As I said to Pastor Roger, I look forward to the Sabbath. I don't know where you get this idea that it's some kind of bad burden. You can hardly call a day off a burden.

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

No one has called it a "burden". Those are your words. A person that keeps the Sabbath as a commandment must be inclined to keep all of the law. The law has been our schoolmaster. It's purpose was to show us that no man could abide by the law. No matter how hard we try we will not be able to keep all of the law and to break one thing of it means that we have broken it all. This is the reason for the law of grace.

You mentioned that it was a proven thing that the early church worshiped on the Sabbath. Yes, when preaching to the Jews they did indeed do so in the Synagogues on the Sabbath as it was the time in which the Jews gathered.

Did you know that the Apostles also traveled from place to place on the Sabbath (which was considered a sin by the law) and would preach on a different day other than the Sabbath?

Act 20:7  And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

[Brother Jerry]

Jemdude,

No one is saying that the day of the Sabbath has changed.  Matter of fact we are all saying that day of the Sabbath as outlined by the Law is what we would call Saturday.  What we are saying is that we do not hold that day any more holy than any other day.  To the Jews the Sabbath was the "holiest" day of the week. 

And when you have started off referring to things in proper name form "the Sabbath" you are then referring to the Jewish holy day which is Saturday.  But at times you talk as if you are just referring to keeping the sabbath or keeping the day of rest which is the 7th day.  These are the traditions which the Pharisees had fallen into.  The day of rest, or the original sabbath was not for God's purpose but to truly provide man a day of rest.  To set in motion that we are to take some time to unwind.  The legalistic Jews over the years had turned the sabbath into more than just the day of rest and had turned it into a dramatic day of reverence.  And even as Jesus pointed out that they had gone to the point of being overboard with it.  They were ready to stone Jesus and the disciples for picking veggies on the side of the road on the Sabbath.  They were confused that one professing to be from God could and would do healing miracles on the Sabbath.  They had taken 6 days of the week away from God and put them all into the last day of the week. Each day of the week is God's and we should revere Him daily.   The Sabbath is for the Jews.  The sabbath is for all, but it is again the spirit of the sabbath not the law of the sabbath.

[2nd Timothy]

Let me ask you this Jemdude....


Do you believe you are justified by keeping the sabbath? 

[Jemdude]

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

No one has called it a "burden". Those are your words. A person that keeps the Sabbath as a commandment must be inclined to keep all of the law. The law has been our schoolmaster. It's purpose was to show us that no man could abide by the law. No matter how hard we try we will not be able to keep all of the law and to break one thing of it means that we have broken it all. This is the reason for the law of grace.

You mentioned that it was a proven thing that the early church worshiped on the Sabbath. Yes, when preaching to the Jews they did indeed do so in the Synagogues on the Sabbath as it was the time in which the Jews gathered.

Did you know that the Apostles also traveled from place to place on the Sabbath (which was considered a sin by the law) and would preach on a different day other than the Sabbath?

Act 20:7  And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Where in the Bible did the Apostles travel from place to place on the Sabbath? I don't think they did; at least not long distances.

I know I'm sounding repetitious, but it just isn't possible to change the day of worship and have everybody quietly go along with it. A good example is the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. They used to be a Sabbath (Saturday) keeping church. But when they decided to change their worship day to Sunday, do away with the Jewish holidays, and a host of other doctrinal changes, it tore the church apart. It caused much controversy within their denomination. The same thing would have happened if the Apostles changed the worship day from Saturday to Sunday. I guess you will have to be honest and admit that you are not able to explain how such a quite change to a major and long-practiced teaching can take place; and that's fine. Even Christians are not going to agree on everything.

Gathering on the 1st day of the week doesn't prove that they made it their main worship day either. It only proves that they had a particular function on that particular day. I attend the Seventh Day Adventist church and we used to have a Men's Ministry program that met on the 1st day of the week every month. Does that mean that Adventists have changed their main day of worship? Of course not. 1Cor 16:2 has nothing to do with a regular church service. Paul told them to take collections. Since they regarded Sunday as a working day, it must have been something that took a lot of work to do.

The Apostles continued to observe the Sabbath, not just when they were preaching to the Jews, but to the Gentiles as well:
--"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44
--"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4.

There is also talk here about being under grace. It is true that we are under grace, but we still have to obey God's law. For example, if a cop catches you speeding, you have broken the law and deserve to be punished. But if the cop forgives you and doesn't give you the ticket, then you are under grace from him. Does that mean you can continue to break the law? Of course not. It would make you put even more effort not to break that law again.
--Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.
--"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? Certainly Not!" Romans 6:14-15

I can quote more verses, but I don't think it will do any good. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've studied this subject and I don't think I would be able to quote anything new. What I might have shown new is when I appealed to your common sense when I demonstrated that a change in worship day just couldn't happen under the conditions you claim it happened. You have probably decided to dismiss it and continue to believe that a change in worship day occurred without incident. If that is the case, and I believe it is, then we'll have to continue to agree to disagree.

[Jemdude]

Let me ask you this Jemdude....


Do you believe you are justified by keeping the sabbath? 

I'm not sure if I understand your question. If you are asking me if I believe that I can be saved by merely obeying God's laws then the answer is no. I still have to accept the sacrifice that Jesus made for my sins. But Jesus still wants all of us to obey God's laws, for as you probably know already, grace is not a license to sin. I do believe that keep the Sabbath is one of those laws that should be obeyed. But I don't feel that it's some kind of legalistic practice. Most people find the Sabbath a day to look forward to, especially after a week of hard work.

[Jemdude]

Jemdude,

No one is saying that the day of the Sabbath has changed.  Matter of fact we are all saying that day of the Sabbath as outlined by the Law is what we would call Saturday.  What we are saying is that we do not hold that day any more holy than any other day.  To the Jews the Sabbath was the "holiest" day of the week. 

And when you have started off referring to things in proper name form "the Sabbath" you are then referring to the Jewish holy day which is Saturday.  But at times you talk as if you are just referring to keeping the sabbath or keeping the day of rest which is the 7th day.  These are the traditions which the Pharisees had fallen into.  The day of rest, or the original sabbath was not for God's purpose but to truly provide man a day of rest.  To set in motion that we are to take some time to unwind.  The legalistic Jews over the years had turned the sabbath into more than just the day of rest and had turned it into a dramatic day of reverence.  And even as Jesus pointed out that they had gone to the point of being overboard with it.  They were ready to stone Jesus and the disciples for picking veggies on the side of the road on the Sabbath.  They were confused that one professing to be from God could and would do healing miracles on the Sabbath.  They had taken 6 days of the week away from God and put them all into the last day of the week. Each day of the week is God's and we should revere Him daily.   The Sabbath is for the Jews.  The sabbath is for all, but it is again the spirit of the sabbath not the law of the sabbath.

Well, one thing we can agree on is that the Pharisees made the Sabbath far more burdensome than God intended. They believed that practicing medicine was forbidden on the Sabbath so they accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath when he healed people on that day. They were wrong of course. Even today, the Orthodox Jews have much restrictions on what can be done on the Sabbath. For example, they don't believe in turning their lights on the Sabbath because of a Bible verse saying not to light fires on the Sabbath. It's for this same reason why they don't drive vehicles on the Sabbath since the engine generates sparks. There are even "Sabbath elevators" that stop on every floor because pressing the number is "lighting a fire". All of this is not of God's doing but man's doing and I'm glad that Jesus set the record straight on the subject.

They had taken 6 days of the week away from God and put them all into the last day of the week. Each day of the week is God's and we should revere Him daily.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. It is true that we are to honor God on every day of the week. However, we are not able to give God full attention on the working days of the week because of the distractions of work. When Sabbath comes (or Sunday in your case), we are able to give full attention to God.

[Brother Jerry]

I think the mud is starting to clear.  There really is a difference between the sabbath and The Sabbath.  The Pharisees had made the sabbath into The Sabbath.  And there was one each week.  The sabbath was instituted by God as a day of rest for man, a day we can sit back and reflect upon Him and what He has done and will do. 

And in keeping the sabbath I do not disagree.  I believe that God wants us to ensure that we keep at least one day free from the worldly things around us and focus on Him as well as self reflection (as in a time to focus on our relationship with Him and listen to what He has to say). 

Do I believe it has to be Saturday, or even Sunday?  No I do not.  I also do not believe that keeping the sabbath or not keeping it has anything to do with our salvation.  There are people in this world who unfortunately work on Sunday, or work on Saturday and Sunday, or whatever.  As long as they can take one day out of the 7 and dedicate it to focusing on God and not the world I believe they are keeping the sabbath.

When we start to mandate that the sabbath HAS to be on a certain day, then we are traveling the road the Pharisees took and will shortly also be dictating what to say and pray on those days as well.  And I do not believe that was the intent God had for that.

[Soldier4Christ]

The sabbath travel law allowed for travel of a distance less than a mile. One that is pointed out is in John 9:1-9 Where both Jesus healed the blind man with clay and spittle. In this example though it does not state how far they traveled on that sabbath.

If we look to Paul's travels though we see many times where traveled long distances that would have required traveling on the sabbath in order to arrive in the time it says he did. Acts 16 (the scripture that I mentioned above) is just one of these examples.

I think the mud is starting to clear.  There really is a difference between the sabbath and The Sabbath.  The Pharisees had made the sabbath into The Sabbath.  And there was one each week.  The sabbath was instituted by God as a day of rest for man, a day we can sit back and reflect upon Him and what He has done and will do. 

And in keeping the sabbath I do not disagree.  I believe that God wants us to ensure that we keep at least one day free from the worldly things around us and focus on Him as well as self reflection (as in a time to focus on our relationship with Him and listen to what He has to say). 

Do I believe it has to be Saturday, or even Sunday?  No I do not.  I also do not believe that keeping the sabbath or not keeping it has anything to do with our salvation.  There are people in this world who unfortunately work on Sunday, or work on Saturday and Sunday, or whatever.  As long as they can take one day out of the 7 and dedicate it to focusing on God and not the world I believe they are keeping the sabbath.

When we start to mandate that the sabbath HAS to be on a certain day, then we are traveling the road the Pharisees took and will shortly also be dictating what to say and pray on those days as well.  And I do not believe that was the intent God had for that.

AMEN!

With the many changes that man has implemented in the calendars from the original to the one we follow today it is difficult to tell what day of the week is actually the Sabbath. There has been many lengthy studies done on this and as of yet there is no definitive answer.