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Author Topic: Papal Address Confirming Evolution  (Read 17733 times)
Corpus
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2003, 04:47:41 PM »

Heidi,

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The Catholics believe we are saved when we are baptized.

Actually Catholics believe they are redeemed through baptism. The difference is significant.

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Also, if Catholics do things wrong, they are supposed to say several "Hail Mary's". Why? How is Mary going to atone for their sins?

Prayer in general is always good in the wake of our own sinful acts. When I sin, I am grateful for the prayers of others to help me reconcile with those I've offended and to change my ways. Petitioning the intercessory prayers of those who are particularly holy and righteous is no different than asking a pastor to pray for us. We approach pastors and ministers in particular because very often we respect their position and believe in the sincerity of their prayer. People of particular holiness always draw us not only closer to themselves, but to God as well.

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That's why a lot of people call for a priest on their deathbed instead of looking up to Christ.

Why can't people call for a priest and look to Christ on their deathbed? It's not exactly fair to assume they do one or the other.

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I just feel that the institution of Catholicism is more important to catholics than Jesus Christ.

Let's be fair here. Is there any church in the world that has 100% membership focused on Christ and not the details of the institution? No church is being honest that doesn't admit it has some less than serious members. The Catholic Church continues to profess Christ Jesus, but their will always be those who misunderstand His message.

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I also agree that the Catholic church is not the only church that places emphasis on works, sacriments, and laws more than on the salvation we get from Christ.

I could understand your asking questions Heidi to gain a better understanding, but your statement here makes an assumption that is patently false. Catholicism has never placed more emphasis on these things than actual salvation. The certainty with which you make the statement implies a certain familiarity with the Catholic faith. I'd suggest a bit more discerning before leaping to such conclusions.
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2003, 11:15:22 PM »

Then why have I met so many catholics who think they're going to hell if they "do the wrong thing" or commit mortal sins as opposed to venial sins, or don't go to confession, or who don't go to church every Sunday? I know one catholic who left the church because she was told that she couldn't have a drop of water the night before communion or she would go to hell. Where are these catholics getting these messages? I hear much more fear in the Catholic church than in the evangelical church. The very fact that a person can be ex-communicated if they "do the wrong thing" leads me to believe that they are not forgiven by the church. I don't hear forgiveness from catholics, only judgment. Why is that?

How can a person be redeemed through baptism? Baptism is an outward declaration of faith. It is a sacriment like Communion. Several Lutheran pastors have told me that people are born again through baptism. In fact that's the official position of the ELCA. That is not scriptural and not the words of Christ.

I don't need a priest at my deathbed. i have a personal relationship with Christ and my sins are bewteen Him and God unless I want to share them with people I have offended. Only Christ's blood can purify them. In the Lutheran church, people recite a confession. After that, the pastor gives them absolution. What about the people who have only recited the words so they can get home to a football game but they have no personal relationship with Christ? How can the Priest declare their sins forgiven when they have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior? Jesus said in John 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ His son." A priest declaring that my sins are forgiven will do nothing to get me to heaven if I don't know God and His son, Jesus Christ. The key word in that phrase is "know". Everybody knows ABOUT Christ, even Osama Bin Laden. But only the ones who know Him personally and have the Holy Spirit inside them will get to heaven. The Holy Spirit IS heaven and it will never go away, even through eternity. If a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit in Him, He doesn't have the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven within him or the kingdom of heaven to come. No priest can give us that. The Holy Spirit comes from God.
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2003, 03:28:32 AM »

Then why have I met so many Catholics who think they're going to hell if they "do the wrong thing" or commit mortal sins as opposed to venial sins, or don't go to confession, or who don't go to church every Sunday? I know one catholic who left the church because she was told that she couldn't have a drop of water the night before communion or she would go to hell. Where are these Catholics getting these messages? I hear much more fear in the Catholic church than in the evangelical church. The very fact that a person can be ex-communicated if they "do the wrong thing" leads me to believe that they are not forgiven by the church.

Why have I met so many Protestants who think the same thing? It has nothing to do with and particular denomination, it is the stereotypical view of god as the big man in the sky with a bat ready to hit us. This view of God as the Cosmic Kill-joy is held by weaker minded Christian from all across the board. It is a misconception held by many people, not just Catholics. I'm sorry, but these so-called Catholics you have met do not know what they are talking about.

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I don't hear forgiveness from Catholics, only judgment. Why is that?

I don't hear understanding from you, only judgment. Much of what you have said about Catholics thus far is the same in most if not all Protestant Churches. Why is that? Here is a thought, maybe, just maybe, the Catholic Church has these problems because they are Christians, who have the same mindsets and attitudes that their bothers have.


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How can a person be redeemed through baptism? Baptism is an outward declaration of faith. It is a sacriment like Communion. Several Lutheran pastors have told me that people are born again through baptism. In fact that's the official position of the ELCA. That is not scriptural and not the words of Christ.

Not scriptural? Perhaps you should do some research on Catholic Apologetic before you state such a thing. It is scriptural to use Baptist for remission of sins. See Luke 3, which shows John the Baptist clearly taught Baptism did forgive sins. If baptism isn’t so important, then why would Jesus have said in The Great Commission “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Does it tell us to make them go to an alter when it is called, does it say you have to pray with a minister? Does it say to hand out tracks? No. He tells us to Baptist them, and teach them. Why would Jesus directly address Baptizing people, and not make a direct reference to Salvation or being born-again?


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I don't need a priest at my deathbed.

I'm glad you are an island unto yourself.


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i have a personal relationship with Christ and my sins are bewteen Him and God unless I want to share them with people I have offended.

Unless you WANT to share them with people you offended? Did James 5:16 sound like a suggestion to you? When you read it, does it strike you as some random thought you may choose to or not to follow through with?


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Only Christ's blood can purify them. In the Lutheran church, people recite a confession. After that, the pastor gives them absolution. What about the people who have only recited the words so they can get home to a football game but they have no personal relationship with Christ? How can the Priest declare their sins forgiven when they have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior? Jesus said in John 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ His son." A priest declaring that my sins are forgiven will do nothing to get me to heaven if I don't know God and His son, Jesus Christ. The key word in that phrase is "know". Everybody knows ABOUT Christ, even Osama Bin Laden.

Again, these are things that are as rampant in the Protestant Church as much as the Catholic church. Protestants are just as bad about being “Once-a-week Christians” as Catholics are. Let he that has no sin...


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But only the ones who know Him personally and have the Holy Spirit inside them will get to heaven. The Holy Spirit IS heaven and it will never go away, even through eternity. If a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit in Him, He doesn't have the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven within him or the kingdom of heaven to come. No priest can give us that. The Holy Spirit comes from God.

Ya think? Where in Catholic doctrine does it say we get the Holy Spirit from a Priest? Heidi, I love ya, girl, and you zeal is to be admired, but please, I beg you, do not cast your brothers and sisters in Christ aside because of a few bad apples ran their mouth without any clue that they are saying.
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2003, 09:10:59 AM »

I'm not judging the Catholic church. I'm just rying to understand why I hear SO MUCH of beings saved by works and less of a personal relationship with God. In the E-Free churches, a personal relationship with God is ALWAYS talked about. In fact, the pre-requisite of becoming a member of the E-Free IS that you have a personal relationship with God. I know some Catholics who go there who are furious that they were never taught that. In fact for hundreds of years, catholic mass was taught in LATIN. One can only conclude that the point of the mass wasn't something they cared if people understood. What was important was that they accepted that the clergy knew and that was who we looked up to.  What else is that but worshipping the clergy, including the pope? I am just trying to understand why all of these things are taught. I can tell you, many, many people have not understood the message of salvation from cathiolics. Something is wrong here. I also agree that these things are as rampant in the Protestant churches which is my point. Why is the message of salvation obscured by so many rituals and sacriments? I can understand why lay people believe in works but clergy?

John the Baptist makes a VERY clear distinction between being born again with water and born again with the holy Spirit. He said baptism prepares the way but that a greater man than he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. If baptism saves, then why would a person ALSO need baptism with the Holy Spirit? If baptism and the Holy Spirit are one then why in Acts are Peter and John sent to witness to people who have been baptized with water but not by the Holy Spirit yet?

I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world. John the baptist baptized with water and Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. It is the same way today but since John is dead, he is replaced by another person (priest). Christ is still alive and it is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS what shows us who Christ is. If people get it at baptism then why do most of the people I've talked to who have been baptized as an infant not KNOW Christ?

As for being an island unto myself, maybe you need a priest at your deathbed, but I just need Christ. If people want to be at my deathbed because they care, that's up to them. But I don't NEED a priest to be saved.
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2003, 04:26:45 PM »

I'm not judging the Catholic church. I'm just rying to understand why I hear SO MUCH of beings saved by works and less of a personal relationship with God. In the E-Free churches, a personal relationship with God is ALWAYS talked about. In fact, the pre-requisite of becoming a member of the E-Free IS that you have a personal relationship with God. I know some Catholics who go there who are furious that they were never taught that. In fact for hundreds of years, catholic mass was taught in LATIN. One can only conclude that the point of the mass wasn't something they cared if people understood. What was important was that they accepted that the clergy knew and that was who we looked up to.  What else is that but worshipping the clergy, including the pope? I am just trying to understand why all of these things are taught. I can tell you, many, many people have not understood the message of salvation from cathiolics. Something is wrong here. I also agree that these things are as rampant in the Protestant churches which is my point. Why is the message of salvation obscured by so many rituals and sacriments? I can understand why lay people believe in works but clergy?

You admit these things are rampant in the Protestant church, and claim it was your point. It was not your point. Your point was Catholics are not saved. It was only after I said the Protestants have the same problems the Catholics do that you realized your logic was flawed. And you are not trying to understand. If you where, you would not have repeated all of this in three posts already.

As for the Latin masses, the Church saw there problem, and changed. And if you would have known more about the Latin form of mass, you might not have been so fast to judge. Read a little bit about how they are operated, I think it will help you understand the Catholic Church more, and there attitude toward God.


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John the Baptist makes a VERY clear distinction between being born again with water and born again with the holy Spirit. He said baptism prepares the way but that a greater man than he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. If baptism saves, then why would a person ALSO need baptism with the Holy Spirit? If baptism and the Holy Spirit are one then why in Acts are Peter and John sent to witness to people who have been baptized with water but not by the Holy Spirit yet?

Does one have to be Baptized in the holy spirit to be saved? I don’t see where it says that is a requirement of being saved. The fact that Paul and John went to teach to those who have been baptized in Water, but not the Holy Spirit PROVE my point. These people where already saved, already baptized, already Christians, but they did not have the holy spirit. Why did they say “Baptized in water, but not the Holy Spirit” when they could have said “Saved by not baptized in the holy spirit?”

I never said a thing about Water Baptism  giving us the Holy Spirit, you are the one who inferred that. As you said, you where water baptized, but you where giving the Holy Spirit later in life.

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I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world.

No joke. We Catholics understand this. Why don’t you tell that to your Protestant friends who insist if you did not say the sinners prayer with a Minister at and alter call, then you are not saved! Tell that to the guys who think you have to have a “magic moment” with a pastor or preacher during the service. Tell that to the Protestant church goers who go up EVERY TIME there is an alter call! They seem to thing salvation only come from the alter.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that yes, Catholics have problems, but they are the same problems Protestants deal with, on the same scale? Let he that has no sin cast the first stone. Let he who's sect has not flaws be the first to condemn Catholics!


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I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world. John the baptist baptized with water and Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. It is the same way today but since John is dead, he is replaced by another person (priest). Christ is still alive and it is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS what shows us who Christ is. If people get it at baptism then why do most of the people I've talked to who have been baptized as an infant not KNOW Christ?

Perhaps because they rejected him. As you said, all the saved Catholic you know are no longer Catholics, so you really don’t know how that Infant baptism effected them, now do you? Well, you were baptized as an infant, and you seem to have turned out pretty good. Jesus was fine with letting the Little Children come into him. Why do you have such a problem with it?


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As for being an island unto myself, maybe you need a priest at your deathbed, but I just need Christ. If people want to be at my deathbed because they care, that's up to them. But I don't NEED a priest to be saved.

FINALLY! You are starting to understand the Catholic Church!
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2003, 04:55:29 PM »

First of all, i hear a lot of defensiveness in you about the Catholic church. I'm not attacking you, I'm questioning the catholic church.

I have believed for a long time that other denomintations, not just catholics are teaching things that don't appear to be scriptural. My life lately has been dealing with the Lutheran church on these very issues. So no, I haven't been just singling out the catholics.  I've challenged the doctrine of some protestant churches this past year.  

As for saying that you don't have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved, THAT IS WHAT BEING SAVED IS. Jesus says in John, 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ, His son."  We are incapable of knowing Christ without the holy Spirit. It is all through the gospel of John. None of us by our own power can "deduce" who Christ is without the Holy Spiirt. That's why no one really understood who Christ was until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Then most of them gave up their lives for Him. When the Holy Spirit takes up residence in us, it never goes away even throughout eternity. In that passage in Acts, Peter and Joh SPECIFICALLY went to those people to lay hands on them because they hadn't RECEIVED the Holy Spirit. They had just been baptized with water.

As for the people who supposedly received the Holy Spirit at baptism then rejected it and received it again, that is impossible because rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. Nobody can be saved again after they reject it.

 If you don't think the Holy Spirit saves, then you must not have it in you or you would recognize its power.
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2003, 05:48:05 PM »

Jesus says you have to be born again of water and the SPIRIT to receive the kingdom of heaven. How do YOU think a person is saved?
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2003, 11:45:34 PM »

Act 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. No fire baptism there.
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2003, 10:45:09 AM »

But in Matthew, 7:21, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly , 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'  I think it's very important to use Jesus's words when trying to understand the New testament. None of the words can be contradictory. I think what Jesus means is that we have to call on the name of the Lord from our hearts which is where all sin lies. Once our heart is changed then our sins can be transformed. But many people have other motives for calling on his name. God knows our hearts and who is sincer and who is not.
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2003, 03:18:14 PM »

Ok, let me try this again. Act 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. What are you trying to arguing?
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2003, 06:51:47 PM »

Tibby, I wasn't disputing your point, just elaborating on it. I know there are a lot of people in the world who confess with their mouths but do not have the Holy Spirit in them. Because this is such a crucial issue, I just wanted to add that. Thanks for your clarification.
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2003, 08:54:07 PM »

Sorry, misuderstand you there.  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2003, 01:30:15 AM »

At this point in time tibby will defend the pagan RCC to his death bed.  One can only pray he see's the light.  I've seen you point out lots of scripture incorrectly but it's useless to go over it again as you don't want to listen.
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2003, 08:55:43 AM »

The same could be said about your beliefs, Jason. Wink I researched and found the Catholic Church to be the true church. I found all that I was told of Catholics was a lie, just like everything you have been told. I have seen the light. You have been in ONE church, one type of church, and you have seen one side, Jason. And you have not even been in the Church very long ,as you have stated. Not only was I raised in church, I have been to several churches, ranging from Denominational Protestant to Charismatic to Catholic. While I do not profess to be “enlightened” I think it is only logical to assume I’d know a little more about “the light” then you.

Anyways, it is nice to see you finally piped in, I was getting worried  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2003, 12:33:57 PM »

The only TRUE church, Tibby, is Jesus Christ. One can worship Him anywhere. Your belief that the catholic church is the one true church shows me that you worship things in the world rather than Jesus. Churches are simply buildings where people can go and worship Christ together. They are not infallible. Your defensiveness of the catholic church indicates that your priorities are skewed.
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