I'm not judging the Catholic church. I'm just rying to understand why I hear SO MUCH of beings saved by works and less of a personal relationship with God. In the E-Free churches, a personal relationship with God is ALWAYS talked about. In fact, the pre-requisite of becoming a member of the E-Free IS that you have a personal relationship with God. I know some Catholics who go there who are furious that they were never taught that. In fact for hundreds of years, catholic mass was taught in LATIN. One can only conclude that the point of the mass wasn't something they cared if people understood. What was important was that they accepted that the clergy knew and that was who we looked up to. What else is that but worshipping the clergy, including the pope? I am just trying to understand why all of these things are taught. I can tell you, many, many people have not understood the message of salvation from cathiolics. Something is wrong here. I also agree that these things are as rampant in the Protestant churches which is my point. Why is the message of salvation obscured by so many rituals and sacriments? I can understand why lay people believe in works but clergy?
You admit these things are rampant in the Protestant church, and claim it was your point. It was not your point. Your point was Catholics are not saved. It was only after I said the Protestants have the same problems the Catholics do that you realized your logic was flawed. And you are not trying to understand. If you where, you would not have repeated all of this in three posts already.
As for the Latin masses, the Church saw there problem, and changed. And if you would have known more about the Latin form of mass, you might not have been so fast to judge. Read a little bit about how they are operated, I think it will help you understand the Catholic Church more, and there attitude toward God.
John the Baptist makes a VERY clear distinction between being born again with water and born again with the holy Spirit. He said baptism prepares the way but that a greater man than he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. If baptism saves, then why would a person ALSO need baptism with the Holy Spirit? If baptism and the Holy Spirit are one then why in Acts are Peter and John sent to witness to people who have been baptized with water but not by the Holy Spirit yet?
Does one have to be Baptized in the holy spirit to be saved? I don’t see where it says that is a requirement of being saved. The fact that Paul and John went to teach to those who have been baptized in Water, but not the Holy Spirit PROVE my point. These people where already saved, already baptized, already Christians, but they did not have the holy spirit. Why did they say “Baptized in water, but not the Holy Spirit” when they could have said “Saved by not baptized in the holy spirit?”
I never said a thing about Water Baptism giving us the Holy Spirit, you are the one who inferred that. As you said, you where water baptized, but you where giving the Holy Spirit later in life.
I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world.
No joke. We Catholics understand this. Why don’t you tell that to your Protestant friends who insist if you did not say the sinners prayer with a Minister at and alter call, then you are not saved! Tell that to the guys who think you have to have a “magic moment” with a pastor or preacher during the service. Tell that to the Protestant church goers who go up EVERY TIME there is an alter call! They seem to thing salvation only come from the alter.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that yes, Catholics have problems, but they are the same problems Protestants deal with, on the same scale? Let he that has no sin cast the first stone. Let he who's sect has not flaws be the first to condemn Catholics!
I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world. John the baptist baptized with water and Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. It is the same way today but since John is dead, he is replaced by another person (priest). Christ is still alive and it is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS what shows us who Christ is. If people get it at baptism then why do most of the people I've talked to who have been baptized as an infant not KNOW Christ?
Perhaps because they rejected him. As you said, all the saved Catholic you know are no longer Catholics, so you really don’t know how that Infant baptism effected them, now do you? Well, you were baptized as an infant, and you seem to have turned out pretty good. Jesus was fine with letting the Little Children come into him. Why do you have such a problem with it?
As for being an island unto myself, maybe you need a priest at your deathbed, but I just need Christ. If people want to be at my deathbed because they care, that's up to them. But I don't NEED a priest to be saved.
FINALLY! You are starting to understand the Catholic Church!