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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
277965 Posts in 26514 Topics by 3790 Members
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1Tim
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« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2006, 04:09:17 AM »

Don't know if you would be interested but I wrote a paper on witnessing to mormons.  I e-mailed it to John for him to consider for his web sit about a week ago.  My approach is to defeat their own doctrines, with their own doctrines.  Just useing the Bible isn't enough with them because they believe the doctrine's of God are progressive---allways evolving.  The bible was accurate only at that time, but now the new revelations are more accurate for this time.  Also, if you reveal to them the true scriptural doctrine of salvation, what they hear you saying is that we are saved by Satans plan.


WARNING: Useing it will make you more of a pain in their you-know-what than you allready are.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 04:11:27 AM by 1Tim » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2006, 04:14:07 AM »

Don't know if you would be interested but I wrote a paper on witnessing to mormons.  I e-mailed it to John for him to consider for his web sit about a week ago.  My approach is to defeat their own doctrines, with their own doctrines.  Just useing the Bible isn't enough with them because they believe the doctrine's of God are progressive---allways evolving.  The bible was accurate only at that time, but now the new revelations are more accurate for this time.  Also, if you reveal to them the true scriptural doctrine of salvation, what they hear you saying is that we are saved by Satans plan.


WARNING: Useing it will make you more of a pain in their you-know-what than you allready are.
Tim I am PM'ing you my e-mail address.  Chances are I will put it up on my website as well, with your name.

Better yet, why don't you post it. Start a new thread. Grin  Oh by the way, I am a Pastor. Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2006, 04:32:58 AM »

Just use my screen name please (like its that different Lips Sealed)  I been a big enough pain to them on other forums that I'm sure they would love to find out who I am.

And by all means, if you find it worthy, distribute it at church.
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« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2006, 04:37:19 AM »

Just use my screen name please (like its that different Lips Sealed)  I been a big enough pain to them on other forums that I'm sure they would love to find out who I am.

  Shocked Shocked


And by all means, if you find it worthy, distribute it at church.
Thank you brother   Cheesy Cheesy

And with this, I'm heading off to bed.  Good night brother.
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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2006, 04:54:34 AM »

Whoa there, I aint mormon  Grin, I don't pray for the dead, but in my hypothetical example I was unaware there was any dead at the scene.

So are you suggesting I would be sinning if I prayed for them and they were allready dead, even if I was not aware they were?

Not at all. I made my post in accordance with all of your posts which would indicate that is what you are talking about.

Quote
Since the word 'bury' in vs 59 and 60, is in the aorist tense, suggesting a future action, it seems reasonable to read this passage as the man Jesus is speaking to is saying, 'after my father dies', suggesting he isn't dead yet--physically. Jesus responce suggests that he is dead spiritually though.

Jesus used the word dead here in both the spiritual as well as the physical sense. The only futuristic part of this is that the mans father was not buried yet. There is nothing to indicate that he was not physically dead yet.

Quote
  The dialog then is saying that we cannot wait to follow Jesus till a more oppertune time, when we may not offend someone who is spiritually dead, by our choice to follow Him. Therefore, Lk.9:59,60 does not apply to my hypothetical model.

You are correct though that it is a wiser use of our time and effort to focus on the living.  I will concede that point.

Yes that is the point that Jesus was getting across. My point also pertains in this statement.



Quote
In light of my original proposition that it would be legitimate to "...pray for Paul...", I will say again that that is the logical conclusion to the definition of time I'm useing.  It is not scripturally supported, nor is it nessesarily practical, but I can not help but recognize that since God is not bound by time, and  the prayer of the righteuss is powerful and effective, that it may still be true.
{/quote]

Since time is a constraint placed on people then what you are doing here is praying for the dead.


[qoute]
I find it curios that so much effort is spent presenting arguments to my conclusion instead of the premis.  I think that is one of the problems we face when contending with opposition (...say, at the door with Mormons or JW's).  I tend to do that too, more often than I would like to admit, I think.

Perhaps that is because the one is tied so closely to the other. If what you are saying about time is correct then you are saying that it is ok to pray for the dead because the argument that you are standing on is the same argument that many use to support their actions of praying for the dead.

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« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2006, 11:35:59 AM »

Good argument, and I tend to agree, but to bring the illustration a little closer to home...

Say I am driving down the road, and I pass a traffic accident with an ambulance present.  As is my attempted habit, I say a quick prayer for those involved in the accident, and their loved ones.  Specifically, I tend to pray for their understanding of God to grow from the event, from whatever point they are at , at that stage in their life, that He would reveal Himself to them.

If the events within time unfolded so that that person died just before I passed by and said that prayer, do you think that prayer is disqualified because that person was dead and I didn't know it?  Could it not be possible that God responded to my prayer before the point in time when I actually said it, and the victim had a death bed conversion?

I don't know, but according to my understanding, I would rather err toward saying the prayer.  On one hand I tend to think that since God would have all men to be saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth, that He would have postponed their death untill after I passed and prayed if it mattered.  On the other hand, this is all speculative, and like you said, there is no example in scripture suggesting it is relevant either.



OK, here is where I think you might be missing something.  You asked...

Quote
If the events within time unfolded so that that person died just before I passed by and said that prayer, do you think that prayer is disqualified because that person was dead and I didn't know it?  Could it not be possible that God responded to my prayer before the point in time when I actually said it, and the victim had a death bed conversion?


We should already know that our prayers don't alert God to things, as He already knows everything. right?.   Using your analogy here, a "prayer thats qualified" (or unqualified) as you put it, because you are suddenly alerted to a situation and begin praying doesn't change the outcome of Gods will.   When we pray, we are not moving God into action and wielding Him about with our Will as we think best, but rather its just the opposite.  We are moving into the center of Gods Will through prayer.     And God will respond according to His Will regardless to bring about His purpose, and if He is determined to use such a thing for His glory, HE WILL FIND a way, before this person dies to hear and accept His truth.   Here is a good point to bring up God NOT being bound by time.   He can foresee the outcome of this accident and move the world to bring about His Will and purpose, in the time frame of that individuals life.   

See, Gods got this time thing under control, and He uses it for His glory.   We don't need to be time warped back and forth.   We are here to serve His purpose on our track of time....He will take care of moving outer worldly things to happen when we need them to happen, because He is God almighty!   Doc's time flux capacitor ain't got nothing on God.   If Doc think 1.21 gigawatt's is something, he ain't seen nothing yet...lol    Grin



Quote
I don't know, but according to my understanding, I would rather err toward saying the prayer.  On one hand I tend to think that since God would have all men to be saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth, that He would have postponed their death untill after I passed and prayed if it mattered.  On the other hand, this is all speculative, and like you said, there is no example in scripture suggesting it is relevant either.



It is true that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, but the thought of God being limited to your availability to pray in present or in some time warp theory, so this person who died 5 mins ago would be saved puts US in charge, not Him.   God will do His purpose whether we are obedient and faithful in prayer or not.  If we are not, He will find someone who is.  So a more likely scenario would be that God would have someone on the scene sharing His Love and Gospel before this person died.   


Ecc 3:11  He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Ecc 3:12  I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good in one's lifetime;


As I said before.  God created you for the very time you are living in.  You are appropriate in this time says verse 11.   And God has plans for your lifetime.   



Quote
I would rather err toward saying the prayer



If you really want to avoid erring, then allow your prayers to move you towards the center of Gods will and into action.   If you are praying for someones heart to be softened so that they can hear the Gospel, then be sure to follow up and deliver that Gospel message in faith, that God has heard and answered your prayer.   If you are praying for victims involved in an accident, for their care and loved ones, then allow God to make use of you and get involved in some active way.  When Jesus was here, He did not spend time praying for those who died years ago.  And when He prayed for individuals currently living, He got involved with them actively, loving, sharing, teaching.

If you begin to view prayer in this light, you will see that God can use the uniqueness He created you with, in miraculous ways, and people will see Christ in your life like never before.   The people who need to hear the Gospel of Christ in your little corner of the world, are still living, right now.   The people who need Gods tender mercies in your little corner of the world are there, right now!   God wants to use you there, NOW!   

This is why we must follow Him and what His word teaches.   God wants to use you in this way, but if can't, He will find someone else He can use there, now!   


I know your thinking on this is all well meaning, but in truth, its not scriptural friend, and I do say this with the utmost love.   We must live by what His word teaches, and it does not teach us to pray for those who have passed, or those in history.  Stick with what it says and you wont err.   Start adding and changing things, and you will ALWAYS err!

I love you bro!

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2006, 12:15:16 PM »

Amen 2T. Very well said.

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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2006, 12:16:20 AM »

Ouch!  Ok guys, you win  Smiley.  I made a couple jumps in reasoning you guys filled in.  Good Job, and thanks.

And yes PR, this is exactly what I asked for, and why. Smiley  I didn't see the jumps I made, but suspected they were there.  Well done amigos.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 12:18:42 AM by 1Tim » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2006, 12:24:16 AM »

the argument that you are standing on is the same argument that many use to support their actions of praying for the dead.



No kidding???   Who might that be?  I've never heard anyone use this argument supporting prayer for the dead.  Useually they try to reason that their souls are in purgatory or some other holding tank that they can get out of.
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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2006, 02:56:01 AM »

Ouch!  Ok guys, you win  Smiley.  I made a couple jumps in reasoning you guys filled in.  Good Job, and thanks.

And yes PR, this is exactly what I asked for, and why. Smiley  I didn't see the jumps I made, but suspected they were there.  Well done amigos.


Blessings 1Tim....we're all winners because God's our team captain!   Wink
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 02:58:33 AM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2006, 05:31:13 AM »

No kidding???   Who might that be?  I've never heard anyone use this argument supporting prayer for the dead.  Useually they try to reason that their souls are in purgatory or some other holding tank that they can get out of.

Various new age cults. Those using the purgatory argument are those that have been around for some time.

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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2006, 12:24:33 PM »

Better yet, why don't you post it. Start a new thread. Grin 

As you can see now, there are considerable # of quotes from mormon "scripture" in it.   Do you still think it's acceptable??
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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2006, 12:26:52 PM »

Just so long as it is in support of the Holy Bible and not in support of Mormon doctrine.

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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2006, 04:30:12 PM »

Just so long as it is in support of the Holy Bible and not in support of Mormon doctrine.


It does brother, it shows the lies of the book of moron. Although it does need to be cleaned up some, from the breaks in line.
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« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2006, 09:39:24 PM »

Cleaned up how?

e-mail it back to me with highlighted examples.   Oh, and I finally found MS Word on my computer  Grin, so I'll run it through spell check.
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