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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2006, 11:55:26 PM »

Len,
Then we are speaking on the same page.  My whole point is that the speaking in tongues that is found in the Charismatic movement of today, and even of the first century, is unbiblical.  When the Bible speaks of speaking in tongues they are known languages.  Yes a miracle that one person may speak and people of many languages may understand.  But it is not the gibberish and confusion that you would find in the charasmatic churches today.

Paul speaks of that as confusion and God would not author confusion. 
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« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2006, 01:34:06 AM »

agreed   Smiley
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« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2006, 07:47:18 AM »

Len,
Then we are speaking on the same page.  My whole point is that the speaking in tongues that is found in the Charismatic movement of today, and even of the first century, is unbiblical.  When the Bible speaks of speaking in tongues they are known languages.  Yes a miracle that one person may speak and people of many languages may understand.  But it is not the gibberish and confusion that you would find in the charasmatic churches today.

Paul speaks of that as confusion and God would not author confusion. 

Absolutely. No confusion at all in Scripture. Just our own feeble minds.

But help me if you will. Where in Scripture has just one person spoken and many heard, each in his own tongue? I can't seem to find that anywhere. I don't deny the possibility. I'm just looking for Scriptural confirmation.
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« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2006, 10:30:02 AM »

Acts 2:6 "Now when this wasw noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."
Acts 2:8 "And how hear we every man in our tongue, wherein we were born?"
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I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2006, 10:39:03 AM »

Amen Brother Jerry.

Len,

Some people use Acts 2:4 to show that they all were speaking in tongues at the same time. That verse does not say they were all talking at the same time. I realize that it isn't clear in this matter but we see in other scriptures where it is taught that we are not to speak all at once as it does nothing but cause confusion.

When a teacher (Apostle) spoke in the synagogues only one would speak at a time. We know this to be a fact from many other scriptures. With only one speaking at a time and yet every man hearing it in his own tongue as is shown in the verses Brother Jerry gave we know that they all heard one person yet in many languages.

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« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2006, 10:35:28 PM »

Thanks guys. I never read it like that before. Calls for some study on my part.

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« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2006, 04:11:54 AM »

'cept'n one thing...er...maybe plural things...

Acts 2:6
6 When they  (plural) heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one (each singular listener in the croud) heard them (plural speakers) speaking in his (plural number of singular  listeners) own language.

Acts 2:8
8 Then how is it that each of us (plural listeners) hears them (plural speakers) in his (plural number of singular  listeners) own native language?

 IMO If the speakers were speaking in their own language, and each listener heard their own toung they wouldn't have known it, and the reference to the fact that they were Gallileans --uneducated people- would have been irrelevant since an event where the lips did not match the speech coming from them does not happen based on education.  Also, what would you do then, with 2:4, that specifically says the disciples were speaking in other languages?

Though I agree that possibly, they were not all speaking at the same time, only assumtion, not the text, supports that.  We're seeing an event that happened over a longer time frame than a couple scentences initially reveals.  There was enough time elapsed from the "sound of the wind" to assemble a large croud, and for the croud to assess the situation.  It is also possible that in the croud, dispersed amongst them, the desciples did speak in toungs simultaneously with each other, but distant enough from each other that they were not competing with each other to be heard.

Untill we can difinatively answer questions like: how much time elapsed, how big was the croud, how much ground did the croud cover, and who said what, when, we can't make assumtions.  As soon as we do, we limit our understanding of the text, and develop theological positions that give skeptics of Christianity a foothold on the claim that the Bible contradicts itself (many assumed contradictions are based on exactly this type of extrapolation--though this example is fairly minor)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 04:45:04 AM by 1Tim » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2006, 05:53:08 AM »

Let's take a closer look at verse 8:

Act 2:8 (KJV)  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


Acts 2:8 (New International Version)

8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Acts 2:8 (New American Standard Bible)

8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?


Either version you look at here shows that each person there heard them (all of them) in their own tongue. Not one heard one and another heard another in their own tongue. As with any scripture that people use to claim contradictions we must interpret scripture with scripture. We know from other scripture that when speaking only one would speak at a time and this verse does indicate that also.

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« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2006, 11:56:57 PM »

Exactly PR
Scripture with Scripture.

But then I am still trying to figure out where the debate is coming from...we all appear to be in agreement Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2006, 02:16:44 AM »

That's the best type of debate. One where we are actually having a beautiful discussion on the Bible.

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« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2006, 03:32:42 AM »

Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. 

Psalm 144:1

1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock,
who trains my hands for war,
my fingers for battle.

Skill, is developed.   Andplusalso, if I'm wrong, I wont know it unless I face an opponent with a better argument.  As you can see here, we can even look at the same words and see them different ways.

Glad to see you think the same way on this point PR.    Grin Grin

I still don't understand how you can claim "scripture interpreted with scripture" (which I 100% agree) and avoid 2:4, just a few vs. earlier, w/in the same thought even, that specifically says the disciples spoke in toungs.  Why would they speak in toungs, where there is no interpreter (another thing Paul speaks against)  and not speak in toungs just a few minuts/hours later when there were interpreters/ listeners?
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« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2006, 04:28:30 AM »



I still don't understand how you can claim "scripture interpreted with scripture" (which I 100% agree) and avoid 2:4, just a few vs. earlier, w/in the same thought even, that specifically says the disciples spoke in toungs.  Why would they speak in toungs, where there is no interpreter (another thing Paul speaks against)  and not speak in toungs just a few minuts/hours later when there were interpreters/ listeners?


I didn't ignore that verse and did in fact address it but I will expound on it now. If that were the case (that there were no interpreters/listeners then how would the "multitudes" have heard about it and came there to see for themselves. I realize that you are also pointing out the plural of tongues in 2:4 but notice it also says there "as the Spirit gave them utterance". No where does it say that they all spoke at the same time and yes 2:4 does not say they didn't. That is where we look to other scripture.


Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

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« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2006, 03:20:34 AM »




Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.



So..just to clarify, you are saying this passage says,  "...and [the multitude] were confounded because that every man [of the multitude] heard them [the disciples] speak in his [ each individual disciples' ] own language

Is this correct?
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2013, 09:29:32 AM »

Hey I know this is a very old post...but was scanning through some things..

Quote
but we see in other scriptures where it is taught that we are not to speak all at once as it does nothing but cause confusion.

Roger do you by chance still have those verses handy....I was actually talking with someone just the other day on a similar topic and was thinking there were some verses related to this but could not recall them for the life of me Smiley
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Brother Jerry

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I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2013, 02:35:33 PM »

Hello Brother Jerry,

I think that he's talking about 1 Corinthians 14 which addresses tongues and confusion. I hope this helps you.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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