Time

[1Tim]

Hey Brothers and sisters in Christ,

I thought I would throw out some of my thoughts so you all can tell me how off the wall I am (with scriptural support please) or help me think them through better.

One of the things that kinda bugs me, is when well meaning Christians display an understanding of scripture as something like, " that was OT theology, but we are under NT grace."  I think we get confused by the labels--OT & NT--but they are not scripture, just labels describing a part of the Bible.

The more I read the Bible, the more I agree with the old saying, "the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed."  They are saying the same thing.  The scriptures Paul argued from, proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah were the OT.  The scriptures appealed to by the Bereans in Acts 17:11 to see if what Paul ( a NT christian) said was true, were the OT.  The things Jesus said in His ministry on earth were almost all direct Quotes from the OT.  He even said that He only repeats what the Father told Him to say.  From the cross,Jesus quoted Ps 22:1, I think, to bring to mind the descriptive prophesy about the messiah, the observers were seeing right in front of them.  When Jesus said, "hear oh Israel, the Lord is one...love the Lord your God with all thine heart..." He was quoting Deut. 6:4...and on and on. Hebrews 4:2,6 says the OT Jews heard the same Ghospel as we did,  Zeph. 1:7 talks about a sacrafice that was allready prepared, and Heb. 13:20 says that sacrafice was Jesus--the Eternal covenant.

As I read it, the covenant given in Gen. 17:7,8 was an eternal covenant, the same covenant we are under in the NT---if God is our God we will inherit the promised land forever.  In Gal 3:17, Paul says the OT covenant made in Gen 17 was not nullified by the law given to Moses.


Another point is that time is only relative to us, not God.  To claim that "Jesus hadn't died yet" is really irrelevent I think in the light of the eternal covenant.  (Now this is where I get a little goofy)  I take it one step further in my understanding.  I define 'time' as that 'thing' that seperates events.  If God is outside of time, then to God, everything is 'now' and there is no such thing as 'then'.  My dead Grandparents, Moses, and I will all approach the Throne at the same instant, immediately following each of our respective deaths.  This elliminates the conceptual need for a 'holding tank' for those who die before the end of 'time'.  It also renders 'salvation by faith' in the OT a non issue in my own ability to understand it.  One more step I take on this thought ( although I haven't really figgured out why yet  , is that it is legitimate for me to pray now for the apostle Pauls welfare.  Kind of rediculus, 'cause I know how the story turns out, but I don't know the emotional battles he faced, and I can support him with prayer just as I can support my wife as she visits her mom in the hospital,  Because God is outside the realm of 'time'.


OK, theres a couple of my thoughts---fire away   

[nChrist]

Hello 1Tim,

Brother, what you are asking for would be a book. Many of us here will try to help you, but I'll start by telling you that those well-meaning Christians you talked about told you right. As a start, I will tell you that many portions of the Holy Bible won't make any sense at all unless you heed some of the advice given to you by those well-meaning Christians. I don't have the time or energy to write that book for you right now, but I will help you understand a few major things that are absolute musts for you to understand the Holy Bible.

1 - There is a massive difference between being under the Law as opposed to living under Grace. First, the Mosaic Law was for Israel, GOD'S chosen people, the Jews. GOD deals with Israel separately in many ways, and this must be understood. As a New Testament Example, Israel is NOT the CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST, and one can't understand much of the New Testament until the differences are learned. GOD made specific promises to Israel that don't apply to all people. AND, GOD made specific promises to the BODY OF CHRIST that don't apply to most of Israel.

2 - The crucifixion of JESUS CHRIST was and is the most precious event in human history. One must understand why JESUS CHRIST went willingly to the CROSS and what changed at the CROSS to understand the basic concepts of Salvation. It stands to reason that there were huge reasons for Very GOD to humble Himself, make Himself manifest in the flesh, and submit Himself to a death considered a curse when HE was completely innocent, Holy, and without fault of any kind. So, there is a massive reason why those well-meaning Christians told you the truth about HUGE differences between before the CROSS and after the CROSS.

3 - All mature Christians will tell you that the entire Bible from cover to cover is MOST worthy of study, and much of what you said about studying the Old and New Testament is completely true. However, you must make distinctions between the two before you will ever have a chance of understanding the Holy Bible. There are ample reasons for the Titles of Old and New Testament.

4 - The Bible itself, not just some well-meaning Christians, mentions and expounds on the differences between Law and Grace in many portions of the Holy Bible. The same is true for Israel as opposed to the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The same is true for other ages and events in the Holy Bible that one couldn't possibly understand without learning the basics first. The examples are too numerous to mention, but they wouldn't mean much until the basics were learned first. AND, I must tell you that heeding the advice already given to you by those well-meaning Christians are musts.

The Holy Bible is not a book that someone is going to understand in 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, or 20 years. Studying the Holy Bible properly would take several lifetimes, much longer than any of us will live. It's a challenge but many Christians really love studying the Bible and learning the precious truths that are contained in its pages from cover to cover.

I would recommend that you find a church that offers Bible classes for people who want to learn and study the Holy Bible. There are entire books written about single Chapters of the Holy Bible, so I hope that you understand that what you asked for in your post would begin about 15 feet high. BUT, I give thanks that the way to Salvation is simple enough for a child to understand. Belief in JESUS CHRIST, very GOD, and believing what HE did on the CROSS in our place is the only way for Salvation. Once a person accepts JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour, it is a natural thing to want to study the Bible and understand it.

I hope this helps some in getting you started. We do have quite a few threads already on the forum about how to study the Bible, but nothing will replace finding a good Bible class and spending large amounts of your own time. Once you really get into studying the Bible, it's habit forming and begins to be a time that you look forward to.

Finally, prayer for people who have already physically died like the Apostle Paul mean nothing at all. When the Apostle Paul physically died, he was absent from the body and present with JESUS CHRIST. This short physical life on earth is the only chance someone gets to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. I can assure you that the Apostle Paul was Saved and is with the precious one he served, JESUS CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 2:15 NASB  Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

[Rookieupgrade1]

Amen Brother BEP's

[Allinall]

AMEN BROTHER!

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom!

Hi 1Tim,

You did make a few good points. The OT is not a throw away book as some would have it. For "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:". As Brother Tom said though we must be sure to place all scripture in it's proper place. What happened before the cross and what happened at and after the cross. There are many that would bring us back under the law by putting emphasis on the OT teachings and ignoring what Jesus Christ did on the cross.

You are right when saying that time is not relevant to God. He transcends all time.  He created time and put it's constraints on man.

[Shammu]

Add another, AMEN Brother!

[airIam2worship]

Amen Brothers Tom and Roger.

[1Tim]

All right, everyone I wanted opinions from are here...well almost everyone, but I suspect 2nd Timothy will be along shortly, and a few others   , so lets get a couple things straight.

I was raised christian, memorizing scripture, and am fairly familiar with it.  I remember more scripture than I can find when I want it.  Because of that though, I recognized something about myself, I don't allways come up with the questions I need to think through, because most of the Bible I learned before the "thinking gear" kicked in, and since it was a part of my thought process allready, once I could think things through, I didn't realize I needed to.

My best learning is done in argument form, therefore I tend to serch out those who disagree with me, and can defend their opinion well, to bounce my own opinion off of, to test it.  I am looking for dialogue with you guys to do just that.

I do not disagree with anything posted here so far, except Toms  comment on the "praying for Paul thingy"  I only included that because it is the logical conclusion of my premis about time.  I recognize it is meaningless, and useless for any kind of doctrinal foundation.  It's purely my own speculation, unsupported by scripture.

I did not intend to suggest that we are still under law, it was man that made it a condition of salvation, not the wrighters of the OT, and I am prepared to defend that statement.  My proposition is that we are under Grace, just as the OT believers were, even though they may not have  realized  that.  The only difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant is: the OC was conditional on man maintaining God as their God, the NC is conditional on God, an absolute,  but the rest of the respective covenants are the same.  The two were even established the same way.  In Ex 24:8, Moses "instituted" the Covenant of the Law with blood, in Matt. 26:28 Jesus did.  Under both covenants, the object was not behavior modification, but a relationship with Jesus / God.  One described what it looked like, and the other illustrated it, but both were designed to reveal our need for Jesus, that we could not 'look like' what he required, and that we needed Him to work in us the state of being that produced the results that satisfied the condition of being righteuss.  It was that 'state of being' in both covenants that was the objective.  IMO

It is not a quarrel I am after, but an argument that I can test my own opinion against, and examine opposing arguments---and after all, this forum is called "debate".   

[Satisfied MInd]

Galatians 3:22-25 ASV
(22)  But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23)  But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24)  So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25)  But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.


The law was not perfect. It was to help guide people to the more perfect sacrifice.  It as the verses note above a "tutor" If the law were perfect we would not have needed a Saviour.

Hebrews 7:11 KJVR
(11)  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:22-24 KJVR
(22)  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
(23)  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
(24)  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

The Old Law was written for our learning.

Romans 15:4 KJVR
(4)  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

Jesus took the Old Law and nailed it to the cross

Colossians 2:12-14 KJVR
(12)  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(13)  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(14)  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Yes the Old Law is instructional and we can glean much good from it, but it is definitly not what we rest our hope on! We rest our hope in Jesus

Ephesians 2:12-16 KJVR
(12)  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

[1Tim]

I don't see a conflict between my expressed theories and these scriptures.  If the law was a "tutor" then it was established to show us, or teach us how we should be--yet were / are not--therefore, the need for Jesus.  But the question is why were we not able to look like what the law said we should.  The answer IMO is sin of course, but sin within our nature deep down beyond the behavior level, at the motive level, where it should have been recognized that the promise of a coming savior was needed just as much as the realization nowdays that he did come.  The promise then was that He would come and cover all sin, and the promise now is that His comeing did cover all sin.

The law wasn't adequate because it addressed our behavior, not our core, but by revealing that our behavior was not what it should look like, it was addressing our core (state of being)--that it was not what it should be.  That, I think is why the law could never impart righteusness.  Not only could it never be perfectly obeyed, but even if it was--by humans--it would still be behavior that was righteuss, and not our state of being, wich only Jesus could address.

The covenant Jesus established resolves the problem of our state of being.  It is the eternal covenant that existed in the OT too.

[nChrist]

All right, everyone I wanted opinions from are here...well almost everyone, but I suspect 2nd Timothy will be along shortly, and a few others   , so lets get a couple things straight.

I was raised christian, memorizing scripture, and am fairly familiar with it.  I remember more scripture than I can find when I want it.  Because of that though, I recognized something about myself, I don't allways come up with the questions I need to think through, because most of the Bible I learned before the "thinking gear" kicked in, and since it was a part of my thought process allready, once I could think things through, I didn't realize I needed to.

My best learning is done in argument form, therefore I tend to serch out those who disagree with me, and can defend their opinion well, to bounce my own opinion off of, to test it.  I am looking for dialogue with you guys to do just that.

I do not disagree with anything posted here so far, except Toms  comment on the "praying for Paul thingy"  I only included that because it is the logical conclusion of my premis about time.  I recognize it is meaningless, and useless for any kind of doctrinal foundation.  It's purely my own speculation, unsupported by scripture.

I did not intend to suggest that we are still under law, it was man that made it a condition of salvation, not the wrighters of the OT, and I am prepared to defend that statement.  My proposition is that we are under Grace, just as the OT believers were, even though they may not have  realized  that.  The only difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant is: the OC was conditional on man maintaining God as their God, the NC is conditional on God, an absolute,  but the rest of the respective covenants are the same.  The two were even established the same way.  In Ex 24:8, Moses "instituted" the Covenant of the Law with blood, in Matt. 26:28 Jesus did.  Under both covenants, the object was not behavior modification, but a relationship with Jesus / God.  One described what it looked like, and the other illustrated it, but both were designed to reveal our need for Jesus, that we could not 'look like' what he required, and that we needed Him to work in us the state of being that produced the results that satisfied the condition of being righteuss.  It was that 'state of being' in both covenants that was the objective.  IMO

It is not a quarrel I am after, but an argument that I can test my own opinion against, and examine opposing arguments---and after all, this forum is called "debate".   

Hello 1Tim,

I was trying to help you with some basics to get you started in understanding  how to Study the Bible, not argue. I have no intention of arguing with you. I'll simply tell you that you should learn the basics before you try to start arguments. Maybe someone else will be interested in arguing with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[Rookieupgrade1]

I don't see a conflict between my expressed theories and these scriptures.  If the law was a "tutor" then it was established to show us, or teach us how we should be--yet were / are not--therefore, the need for Jesus.  But the question is why were we not able to look like what the law said we should.  The answer IMO is sin of course, but sin within our nature deep down beyond the behavior level, at the motive level, where it should have been recognized that the promise of a coming savior was needed just as much as the realization nowdays that he did come.  The promise then was that He would come and cover all sin, and the promise now is that His comeing did cover all sin.

The law wasn't adequate because it addressed our behavior, not our core, but by revealing that our behavior was not what it should look like, it was addressing our core (state of being)--that it was not what it should be.  That, I think is why the law could never impart righteusness.  Not only could it never be perfectly obeyed, but even if it was--by humans--it would still be behavior that was righteuss, and not our state of being, wich only Jesus could address.

The covenant Jesus established resolves the problem of our state of being.  It is the eternal covenant that existed in the OT too.

I think that not only did the OT law (and one must also veiw this from the eyes of the times they lived) modify behavior, it was also intended by the Almighty to be taken internally..........like water of a spring. When you internalize the laws of God they change your intentions, and deep motivations for God. Many however could not hold fast to the law, internally, and therfore the Savior and risen Lord was required to wash us.

The OT law (specifically the 10 commandments) is not obsolete, simply supplimented. there are countless volumes of scripture that will give additional rules but it is all based in whole on the ten, and gives clarification for the times, and situations they faces. Just as no we need Christ to save us from the barage of multimedia sin piped at us from all sides causing our eye to sin and lust in our hearts (speaking of my own struggles here ) and without the loveing salvation and stregnth of God and Christ, I too would perish in eternal damnation because of my weaknesses.


God knew all along we would need Christ and intended Him to come from the very beginning, and just in time to save us all from ourselves.

[linssue55]

Hey Brothers and sisters in Christ,

I thought I would throw out some of my thoughts so you all can tell me how off the wall I am (with scriptural support please) or help me think them through better.

One of the things that kinda bugs me, is when well meaning Christians display an understanding of scripture as something like, " that was OT theology, but we are under NT grace."  I think we get confused by the labels--OT & NT--but they are not scripture, just labels describing a part of the Bible.

The more I read the Bible, the more I agree with the old saying, "the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed."  They are saying the same thing.  The scriptures Paul argued from, proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah were the OT.  The scriptures appealed to by the Bereans in Acts 17:11 to see if what Paul ( a NT christian) said was true, were the OT.  The things Jesus said in His ministry on earth were almost all direct Quotes from the OT.  He even said that He only repeats what the Father told Him to say.  From the cross,Jesus quoted Ps 22:1, I think, to bring to mind the descriptive prophesy about the messiah, the observers were seeing right in front of them.  When Jesus said, "hear oh Israel, the Lord is one...love the Lord your God with all thine heart..." He was quoting Deut. 6:4...and on and on. Hebrews 4:2,6 says the OT Jews heard the same Ghospel as we did,  Zeph. 1:7 talks about a sacrafice that was allready prepared, and Heb. 13:20 says that sacrafice was Jesus--the Eternal covenant.

As I read it, the covenant given in Gen. 17:7,8 was an eternal covenant, the same covenant we are under in the NT---if God is our God we will inherit the promised land forever.  In Gal 3:17, Paul says the OT covenant made in Gen 17 was not nullified by the law given to Moses.


Another point is that time is only relative to us, not God.  To claim that "Jesus hadn't died yet" is really irrelevent I think in the light of the eternal covenant.  (Now this is where I get a little goofy)  I take it one step further in my understanding.  I define 'time' as that 'thing' that seperates events.  If God is outside of time, then to God, everything is 'now' and there is no such thing as 'then'.  My dead Grandparents, Moses, and I will all approach the Throne at the same instant, immediately following each of our respective deaths.  This elliminates the conceptual need for a 'holding tank' for those who die before the end of 'time'.  It also renders 'salvation by faith' in the OT a non issue in my own ability to understand it.  One more step I take on this thought ( although I haven't really figgured out why yet  , is that it is legitimate for me to pray now for the apostle Pauls welfare.  Kind of rediculus, 'cause I know how the story turns out, but I don't know the emotional battles he faced, and I can support him with prayer just as I can support my wife as she visits her mom in the hospital,  Because God is outside the realm of 'time'.


OK, theres a couple of my thoughts---fire away   

I agree with BEP....you are asking for many hours of study here.  God will answer all of your qwuestions in HIS time, but I am sure He would want you to learn some basic doctrine first so later you will have something to build on.  The OT and NT are most definetaly 2 seperate books and should be thought as such.  Each can ocrrolate to the other but we must know what pertains to us Now in this church age.  Studying the bible takes decades of intense love of the word.  The stronger we love the word, the more we learn, there is always degree's amongst believers, some will fulfill this love with maximum learning others will not.

 But when learning, PATIENCE is required, if God wants you to know something NOW, He will tell you through His word.  When He doesn't want you to know something NOW, it is usually because the foundation is not READY for the other part of the bricks for this structure.  Knowledge does not come before spiritual growth, and only the Lord know's when we are ready for it.  We must have our foundation in place and STURDY, BEFORE we can take on more concrete.  Your questions will be answered in time, so in the mean time, don't think about it, yet we are to concentrate on what is at hand right now.  It will come, so until then I would find your right pastor teacher and learn the bible everyday.

 The following  pretty much sums it up for me..............

"The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder, the soul and the spirit, the joints of the marrow, and is the thought and critic and intense of the heart. All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable, for doctrine, for re-proof, for correction for instructions in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamded, rightly dividing the word of truth."




 

[Kelly4Jesus]

Personally, I agree with the OT and NT being two different books, and the OT being meant for the Jews of that time, as Christians were not, as of that time (obviously).

I am just starting studies in theology, so I am reading closely the OT now. I can say this: I am forever grateful for Jesus coming to us, Praise God. In the OT, women are viewed badly in many ways. EVERYTHING, pretty much for a woman needs cleansing time--or a woman is really in seclusion pretty much most of her life in the OT. This bothers me a bit, but I have it on my list to consult with God, when I get there. I don't understand how, women--being the only bearer of life, since man couldn't possibly bear life without her ability to give birth--can be so dirty after natural things happening because of this ability.

Praise Jesus for so many things changing with His birth, life, death and resurrection. I love the OT--I am enthralled with the story of David in Samuel right now. But, I do have issues with the OT and how many "sins" women have in there.

Um, I do believe I got off subject a bit but..hey, I am old.

God Bless,
Kelly

[linssue55]

Oops........