Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

[Dave...]

 
Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

Continued...

[Dave...]

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

You probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, you give thanks to our Lord for it, right? Should we sit at the table waiting for dinner to miraculously appear because God said not to worry about tomorrow? No, We go out and do what we need to do to put dinner on the table, but we still thank God for it. Even though He allows us to be part of His sovereign plan, He is the cause for it.

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart that is recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Here is one obvious hurdle, of many, that must be overcome by those who believe in a libertarian freedom.

(1) "According to libertarians, the power of contrary choice means that it is always within the ability of the human will to believe or reject the gospel. But if we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached? If you ask a libertarian whether he could come to faith in Christ apart from any work of the Spirit, like all Christians, they must answer ‘no’. In other words, even to a libertarian, it is not “within the [natural moral] ability of the human will to believe or reject the gospel.” There is still the necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit, who is the sine qua non of the affections being set free from sin’s bondage. Therefore, they are forced to admit that the possibility of the natural will exercising faith would be inconsistent with basic Christianity, since we all know that the natural man is hostile to God and will not willingly submit to the humbling terms of the gospel. We all agree then, that left to himself, man has no libertarian free will to choose any redemptive good, since his affections are entirely in bondage to sin (until Christ sets him free) and cannot choose otherwise. So it ends up that libertarians must believe that, in his natural state (which is most of the time), man’s will is only free in the compatibilist sense, since, apart from the Spirit, he can only choose according to the desires (love of darkness) of his fallen nature. Unless, of course, they can offer another explanation of why one cannot believe apart from the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, Christians all affirm that one must first hear the gospel in order to believe since general revelation is not enough to engender saving faith (Romans 10:13-15). But if it is always within the libertarian ability of the human will to believe, as they claim, then again, what purpose is there for the Holy Spirit while hearing? Doesn’t this reveal that they actually do believe we normally exercise choice according to the corruption of nature? [We must note, as an aside, that the Epistle to the Romans testifies that even those who have not heard the gospel know enough from general revelation to condemn them because “what is known about God is evident within them” and they “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom 1:18-20).] By all accounts, then, no true Christian believes that a person has libertarian free will to believe the gospel apart to any work of the Holy Spirit.

But, having deduced that libertarian free will must still be true, libertarians believe they resolve this problem by inventing a logical scheme (nowhere found in the gospels) where God grants something to all who hear the gospel called prevenient grace, which temporarily removes the sin nature by allegedly placing sinners in a pre-fall-like state where they have libertarian freedom to either chose or reject Christ, a choice undetermined by any desires or nature. Because the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the libertarian, is never sufficient in itself. To grace we must add choice. While we heartily agree with libertarians in the necessity of preaching for salvation so that the Holy Spirit can germinate the “seed” of the gospel, yet to dogmatize the belief that once having heard that one is forevermore wandering the earth in a semi-regenerate state with a libertarian free will is wild speculation at best. For a biblical example that pronounces the differences among us, consider when Paul was preaching the gospel to Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul” (Acts 16:14). A libertarian would argue this passage placed Lydia in a pre-fall-like state where she had libertarian freedom to believe or reject Jesus. But the passage plainly says that God opened her heart to respond, not so that she would hopefully respond. There is not one instance in Scripture when such language is used (where God acts) when people actually refused (see 2 Chronicles 30:11-12; John 6:37; 65). Rather, when God calls a person or opens a heart to respond, the matter is always settled biblically. Galatians 1:15 asserts that Paul was set apart and called by grace before birth. Can such a call be thwarted? Jesus call to Paul on the Damascus road was certain, not merely a possibility. When a person hears a preacher call for their repentance they can certainly resist that call. But if God gives an inner call no one resists (Acts 2:39; 1 Corinthians 1:23-24; Rom 8:30) nor does he want to. The biblical evidence for certainty in calling, then, is clearly on the side of the compatibilist in all cases the Bible reveals God’s intent.

If we had libertarian freedom all the time when hearing the gospel then we could theoretically believe the gospel apart from the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. Yet I have not yet found one libertarian willing to admit this, for to do so would fall into the heresy of Pelagianism. In the end, we must note, that Scripture defines freedom, not as libertarians do, but as the freedom from the bondage to sin, since we are slaves of sin until the Son sets us free (John 8; Rom 6). Biblical freedom is the freedom to do what is pleasing to God (John 8:34-36; Rom 6:15-23; 2 Cor 3:17) and this freedom from sin is granted in the redemptive work of Christ. Yet the Scripture nowhere says anything about the freedom to choose contrary or apart from our desires altogether. We either desire Christ or we despise him, and if we choose Him, this is the result of sovereign grace giving us a heart of flesh, not a result of nature itself (John 1:13; Rom 9:16). The real difference between the two views, then, is not really the nature of the will for we all can agree that apart from the Holy Spirit, the will acts according to the affections of its fallen nature in a compatibilist sense. The real difference rather is the nature of God’s grace in salvation (what it does for us). This brings us to the next criticism…" http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

Continued...

[Dave...]

The Holy Spirit is necessary in salvation, hence the idea of libertarian free will does not exist. Here is a non exhaustive list to get the idea across.

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, (James 3:2, James 3:, (1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.)

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter 1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, (Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16), Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, (John 6:37, John 6:44-45), John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, (John 10:3-6, John 10:16, John 10:26-29).

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelation 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, (John 17:11-12, John 17:15), Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, (2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17), (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14), Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, (Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15), Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, (1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25), (1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20), Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

Some more hurdles here. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

For those who love the Jesus (Who is the truth), test this honestly, that's all I ask.

In Christ

Dave

[LuckyStrike]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, Dave. I have two questions for you.

John 14:21 [NIV]
[Jesus said:] "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 16:27 [NIV]
[Jesus said:] "No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."

Matthew 10:37 [NIV]
[Jesus said:] "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;"

Matthew 22 [NIV]
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' [b] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Does 'Elohiym force people to love them? How could forced love produce true love, if God is love (1 John 4:8)?

[Dave...]

Hi Lucky

Does 'Elohiym force people to love them?

I'm not very good in the original languages, especially Hebrew, but I'll assume that you meant "God" as in 'does God force people to love Him?' Your "them" is throwing me off, though.

No, not at all. Everyone wants to worship, even the unregenerate, this is why we have so many false religions and "lovers (worshipers) of themselves". That's how God made mankind. But sin separates us from God. I would call it more of a removing of an obstacle. Then, once that obstacle is removed, God will point the way by drawing us (John 6:44). Repentance, faith, and perseverance are all gifts from God, this is why we give Him all the glory, because He deserves it. And once we have Christ in us, we will naturally we begin to take on the characteristics of Christ as we are being conformed to Him, such as true love in the Biblical sense. I would say that love is the result of a new heart and it's sourse must always be God. I would not call it forcing, very far from that.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 )....--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

I'm limited on time, so if this doesn't answer your question, i'll try again tomorrow.

In Christ
Dave

[AvgJoe]

The Calvinist view says that God makes the decision for us, as to whether we become believers, or not. Does He?

Ephesians 2:8(ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In order to possess a gift what must one do? Do you possess a gift just because it is being offered? No. In order to possess a gift, being freely given, is to accept it? What is the act of "accepting the gift"? That is a choice. You cannot possess the free gift of salvation unless you accept it and no where in the Bible do we see God forcing anyone to make a particular decision.

Click the following link for a much better explanation than I can give: God's Choice or Ours? Predestination and Election

[Dave...]

Hi Joe

The Calvinist view says that God makes the decision for us, as to whether we become believers, or not. Does He?

No, I don't believe that the Bible teaches that God makes the decision for us. I don't know of any Calvinist who believes this.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will"?

You must decide how sovereign is God as revealed by the Bible. Absolutely sovereign or with a reduced sovereignty.

You cannot possess the free gift of salvation unless you accept it and no where in the Bible do we see God forcing anyone to make a particular decision.

I agree. Please reread the second post. "... if we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached?"

[in light of the third post of this thread] "You must decide whether man can freely of his own free will decide for Christ or is he totally helpless - really blind, deaf, lost etc., - and must altogether rely on the free grace of God."

In Christ Jesus
Dave

[AvgJoe]

Hi Joe

Hi Dave

No, I don't believe that the Bible teaches that God makes the decision for us.

I don't believe the Bible teaches that either.

I don't know of any Calvinist who believes this.

Do they believe all 5 points of the TULIP? Between "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace," Calvinism has God deciding who will be saved and who won't be saved. If God does the deciding, then we don't.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will"?

Yes.

You must decide how sovereign is God as revealed by the Bible. Absolutely sovereign or with a reduced sovereignty.

I believe God is absolutely sovereign. He can do whatever He so chooses. Have you click the link I included with my last post. It is a free booklet that does a great job of explaining what I believe, concerning these issues. If you haven't, please take the time to read it.

I agree. Please reread the second post. "... if we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached?"

[in light of the third post of this thread] "You must decide whether man can freely of his own free will decide for Christ or is he totally helpless - really blind, deaf, lost etc., - and must altogether rely on the free grace of God."

In Christ Jesus
Dave

Let me explain my beliefs. I believe that the decision to accept or reject Jesus is man's only part in salvation. As the Scriptures say, "no one seeks God" and "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." Man does nothing to initiate salvation. Jesus draws all men unto Himself. The Holy Spirit convicts man of his sin and makes plain our need for a Saviour. The natural man would never even have any concept of God were it not for the Holy Spirit doing His awesome work within the hearts of man. No one seeks God on their own. The only reason an unbeliever ever darkens the doorway of the church is because the Holy Spirit is working in His life and Jesus is drawing the unbeliver unto Himself. The Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and soul of the unbeliever and it is the unbeliever's choice to accept or reject the light he has been shown, and opting to not choose right now is making a choice to reject for now.

[LuckyStrike]

And once we have Christ in us, we will naturally we begin to take on the characteristics of Christ as we are being conformed to Him, such as true love in the Biblical sense. I would say that love is the result of a new heart and it's sourse must always be God. I would not call it forcing, very far from that.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

Hold on a second. If all love comes from 'Elohiym, then 'Elohiym loves themselves through us, no? How does one's love for 'Elohiym possess any meaning, if one cannot love 'Elohiym under their own will alone? Is love not a relational reaction from the individual?

I'm not very good in the original languages, especially Hebrew, but I'll assume that you meant "God" as in 'does God force people to love Him?' Your "them" is throwing me off, though.

The Hebrew term 'Elohiym references the incomprehensible uniplural Trinity. Each personage is individually God, yet all three personages are one God. However, ontologically describing God as a singular "he" implies Modalism or Oneness Theology, which is a theological error that disrespects the personages of the Trinity. Therefore, I use the term "'Elohiym," plus third-person plural pronouns, to honor the Trinitarian personages simultaneously.

Does this explanation help you?

[Dave...]

Hey Joe

Sorry it took so long to reply.

Do they believe all 5 points of the TULIP? Between "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace," Calvinism has God deciding who will be saved and who won't be saved. If God does the deciding, then we don't.

I'll try to answer this question with the answer to the next question.

Let me explain my beliefs. I believe that the decision to accept or reject Jesus is man's only part in salvation. As the Scriptures say, "no one seeks God" and "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." Man does nothing to initiate salvation. Jesus draws all men unto Himself. The Holy Spirit convicts man of his sin and makes plain our need for a Saviour. The natural man would never even have any concept of God were it not for the Holy Spirit doing His awesome work within the hearts of man. No one seeks God on their own. The only reason an unbeliever ever darkens the doorway of the church is because the Holy Spirit is working in His life and Jesus is drawing the unbeliever unto Himself. The Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and soul of the unbeliever and it is the unbeliever's choice to accept or reject the light he has been shown, and opting to not choose right now is making a choice to reject for now.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I believe that man takes part in much of His salvation. It is a fixed end in God's eyes, but we are to play a part in it. God chose for us to take part in it. While Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God, well..., look at some of the example that I gave in my first few posts...Keep in mind that God's sovereignty is unaffected no matter how free or enslaved a man might be. As we can see in Philippians 2:12-13 quoted below, this relationship between God's sovereignty and mans will (compatablism) applies to salvation as well. God's sovereignty and mans will, compatible...

Dave wrote:

You probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, you give thanks to our Lord for it, right? Should we sit at the table waiting for dinner to miraculously appear because God said not to worry about tomorrow? No, We go out and do what we need to do to put dinner on the table, but we still thank God for it. Even though He allows us to be part of His sovereign plan, He is the cause for it.

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart that is recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:12-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Even with the un-regenerate heart, i've provided Biblical examples...

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

So you may ask, how is it possible that God can be completely sovereign and man is still free enough to chose according to the desires of his heart? I don't know. I do know that some people seek to solve this problem by saying that God simply looked into the future to see what choice man would make concerning all things, even salvation, and then decreed them to happen. Based on what I have read and studied in God's Word, this is nowhere taught in scripture and actuall goes way beyond what the Bible teaches, in fact, it contradicts the Bibles clear teaching that God does decree and ordain these things to happen according to His will and His purpose, not because He could see what what man would do by looking into the future.

Where you said "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." I don't recall seeing this in scripture. I could be wrong, but i'll assume that you were referring to John 6:44?

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you still have questions are are not clear on my answers to you.

Lucky strike, I'm going to need to get to you tomorrow.

Dave

[LuckyStrike]

Lucky strike, I'm going to need to get to you tomorrow.

No problem, Dave. I realize that other priorities can come first.

[Dave...]

The Hebrew term 'Elohiym references the incomprehensible uniplural Trinity. Each personage is individually God, yet all three personages are one God. However, ontologically describing God as a singular "he" implies Modalism or Oneness Theology, which is a theological error that disrespects the personages of the Trinity. Therefore, I use the term "'Elohiym," plus third-person plural pronouns, to honor the Trinitarian personages simultaneously.

Does this explanation help you?

I think I got it. 

Hold on a second. If all love comes from 'Elohiym, then 'Elohiym loves themselves through us, no? How does one's love for 'Elohiym possess any meaning, if one cannot love 'Elohiym under their own will alone? Is love not a relational reaction from the individual?

This could get very deep, very fast. LOL Why do we give Him all the glory? Because God is the source of anything good that comes from us for the Church. Sometime we need to look at the foundation of reasoning that our questions are built on. Your question seems to assume that if love comes from God that it would violate our will? I don't believe that it does based on the previous post given to Joe. It's difficult, if not impossible to work out in our minds, but to the best of my understanding, this is what scripture teaches. God's sovereignty is unaffected by how enslaved or free we may be. 

There is a lot of different ways that we could look at this. We know that the Son loves the Father, yet they are still One. Would this be self love? I believe that it would be if we understood God as the Oneness Pentecostals does, but the fact that we do have a Three Person Trinity would seem to overcome this. While all Three are "One", they are Each fully God and distinct from Eachother. So Jesus loving the Father would not be self love.

If we apply this same reasoning to the question that you posed......You have Christ living in you. Does the fact that you can now grow in your love for Jesus as a result of you now being "in Him" make it any less your love? Are you not still free to follow the disires of your heart?

Remember
""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I must take Jesus at His Word that 'we can do nothing [good] without Him' (John 15:5), and as Paul said, 'we receive everything from Him, why boast as is we haven't' (1 Corinthians 4:7).

Something to keep in mind. It's very easy to for all of us to begin our search for understanding on the foundation of our own faulty premice, as in "would a loving God do this?", or, "is it fair?". But we need to be careful in that many times these questions are grounded in our limited understanding and reasoning i.e. fallen assumptions, I think that it's important that we remind ourselves that God is just even if it doesn't all add up to us. Macarthur explanes it very well....

From Macarthur:
"As William Perkins said, many years ago, “We must not think that God does a thing because it’s good and right, but rather is the thing good and right because God wills it and works it.” God defines for us what is justice, because God is by nature just and righteous, and what He does reflects that nature. His own freewill and nothing else is behind His justice, so whatever He wills, is just, and it is just, because He wills it, not because it is just, and therefore He wills it. Now as we think about the justice of God being representative of His character and not subject to fallen assumptions, we begin to understand that God in the nature of His own sovereignty defines everything that He does, as not only just, but perfect. The Creator owes nothing to the creature, not even what He is graciously pleased to give. So God does exactly what God chooses to do . . . that is what it means to be God.

We could talk a little bit about the idea, of course that salvation is not a matter of justice . . . and aren’t we glad for that . . . but it is in a sense because Jesus Christ had to pay the just price for sin, in order that grace might be extended to us. But salvation, of course, is for all of us who are fallen sinners, deserving of nothing but eternal damnation—really a matter, not of justice, but of mercy and grace, which requires justice, but comes to us in the form of mercy and pure grace.

...

The idea that God does what He wants, and that what He does is true and right because He does it, is behind, of course, the understanding of everything in the Scripture and certainly it is behind the doctrine of election. But we cannot isolate the doctrine of election, from election of the church, in regard to us from every other thing that God chooses to do. Because in the whole, large picture, God elects everything that He does. Everything that God does, He does because He chooses to do it and His choices are free from any influence outside Himself. So the doctrine of election fits into this broader comprehension of a sovereign God, by His own nature, doing whatever He chooses to do. That is the broadest perspective."

there is a lot of different ways we could have looked at your question, I know what I have given is very far from being thorough, I hope it served it's purpose though. Hopefully, my post wasn't so scatter brained that nobody but me will be able to understand it. Let me know if you have anymore questions or would like to expand more on your first question.

Peace

[LuckyStrike]

Welcome back, Dave. Thanks for responding.

I think I got it.

Cool.

Your question seems to assume that if love comes from God that it would violate our will? I don't believe that it does based on the previous post given to Joe. It's difficult, if not impossible to work out in our minds, but to the best of my understanding, this is what scripture teaches. God's sovereignty is unaffected by how enslaved or free we may be.

So, in other words, we exercise the power of choice according to God's will?

By definition (ref.), a choice requires a minimum of two or more options, which may be acted upon. However, if 'Elohiym's will controls one's actions, then how can one exercise the power of choice? The word "choice" explicitly implies the existence of an option which is contrary to 'Elohiym's will, otherwise choice ceases to be choice. Otherwise, there is nothing but 'Elohiym's will, which renders all of his creations as puppets.

Now, why is this philosophical premise true? The exercise of choice is centered on the cause or origin of choice, which is will. 'Elohiym and the individual man cannot exercise the power of choice co-equally. One party must be a primary will, while the other party must be a contingent "will." Otherwise, a paradox would emerge within the chain of causation.

This paradox is the real core issue. How can this illogical logic stand, without invalidating all human logic or dismissing this logical problem as a "mystery"?

But we need to be careful in that many times these questions are grounded in our limited understanding and reasoning i.e. fallen assumptions, I think that it's important that we remind ourselves that God is just even if it doesn't all add up to us.

The 5-Point Calvinistic interpretation of 'Elohiym's justice does not harmonize with the Biblical model of justice. For instance, Scripture states that 'Elohiym does not desire the loss of any soul (Matthew 18:10-14), yet 5-Point Calvinism, under the doctrine of Total Predestination, claims that 'Elohiym predestines certain souls for eternal damnation. Did 'Elohiym change their minds during John Calvin's lifetime?

We know that the Son loves the Father, yet they are still One. Would this be self love? I believe that it would be if we understood God as the Oneness Pentecostals does, but the fact that we do have a Three Person Trinity would seem to overcome this. While all Three are "One", they are Each fully God and distinct from Eachother. So Jesus loving the Father would not be self love.

If we apply this same reasoning to the question that you posed......You have Christ living in you. Does the fact that you can now grow in your love for Jesus as a result of you now being "in Him" make it any less your love?

So believers are "bonded" to the Trinity in the same manner as the Trinity is "bonded" together? When did we become 'El of 'Elohiym?

Remember
""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

You are equivocating limited choice with predestined "choice." Free will is not an "all or nothing" capacity. To the contrary, free will choice is free will choice, even if exercised under circumstantial limitations.

I must take Jesus at His Word that 'we can do nothing [good] without Him' (John 15:5), and as Paul said, 'we receive everything from Him, why boast as is we haven't' (1 Corinthians 4:7).

How do you know that these verses describe the will to do good works, as opposed to the capacity to accomplish good works? We can desire to do something, yet be unable to do it. This is the very quandry that motivates our life-long dreams.

[Kelly4Jesus]

I believe (and am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) but, God's Will is something that we choose to follow or not. What God wants from us is not always the path that we choose, if we are not faithful to His guidance. That is where FREE WILL comes in. Yes, God has a plan for all of us. But, even in the case of Joseph, that plan came to light because Joseph had faith. FAITH is the key word there in God's plan working for the good of all of us.

There are many things about God I don't understand. I certainly don't understand why my child died and God didn't save him. However, I have seen good come out of that loss, because through that loss I was able to help others soon after his death. The key thing is that, I believed in God. Even though I was angry with God, I still believed in Him and He took a bad situation and made good out of it. I will always love my child, but my faith has me at peace because I know he is in the Arms of Jesus until I get to see him again in our HOME, Heaven.

God has given me many trials. Let's just say that, my boat is on wavy waters all the time. I have 3 special needs children (2 with autism) and each day is a challenge, as I have 5 living children in all. We don't have a lot of money--in fact, we are broke. However, God has never failed to provide for us, and get me through the hardest of times. With all I have been through, I have had faith and God has rewarded that faith with my ability to help others that are dealing with the same issues. I am blessed by that.

God is God. I am Human. There is much about God I don't understand but I am not meant to understand. God is mysterious, all powerful and His Name is Magnified above all names. You cannot apply logic to God. We all believe what God does for us in a way that comforts us. I guess my point is, I won't know for sure what God was doing until I get to Heaven. I am first on the list for asking Him a few things...so everyone, get behind me!

Oh, before I ask questions however--I will be praising and thanking Him for all He did for me in my life!

God Bless,
Kelly

[Dave...]

So, in other words, we exercise the power of choice according to God's will?

I must refere back to the definition given earlier.

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

By definition (ref.), a choice requires a minimum of two or more options, which may be acted upon. However, if 'Elohiym's will controls one's actions, then how can one exercise the power of choice? The word "choice" explicitly implies the existence of an option which is contrary to 'Elohiym's will, otherwise choice ceases to be choice. Otherwise, there is nothing but 'Elohiym's will, which renders all of his creations as puppets.

Again, we are not puppets, we are free to follow the desires of our hearts. But also keep in mind what was posted in the third and fourth post of this thread. Nobody has ever taken away the choice, but the ability to make the right choice is impossible unless God acts first.

This paradox is the real core issue. How can this illogical logic stand, without invalidating all human logic or dismissing this logical problem as a "mystery"?

But so is the Trinity, yet we accept it because God's Word clearly teaches it, even though we cannot reconsile this in our minds. God providencially governs all things. He works all things according to His will (Eph 1:11), all things work for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28), etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The 5-Point Calvinistic interpretation of 'Elohiym's justice does not harmonize with the Biblical model of justice. For instance, Scripture states that 'Elohiym does not desire the loss of any soul (Matthew 18:10-14),

I posted this in the "foreknew" thread.

"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)

yet 5-Point Calvinism, under the doctrine of Total Predestination, claims that 'Elohiym predestines certain souls for eternal damnation. Did 'Elohiym change their minds during John Calvin's lifetime?

Here is the scripture used to support the five points. Can you show me which ones led you to believe that Calvinism teaches these things..

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3562/tulip.html

So believers are "bonded" to the Trinity in the same manner as the Trinity is "bonded" together? When did we become 'El of 'Elohiym?

Let me try this another way. What work will you glorify yourself for doing without God? What desire do you have that is good that was not given to you by God. A simple list will do.

You are equivocating limited choice with predestined "choice."

"Predestined choice"??  I don't believe that i've ever used those words or even implied what I think you mean by them.

Free will is not an "all or nothing" capacity. To the contrary, free will choice is free will choice, even if exercised under circumstantial limitations

I think that was the point being made.

Out of time, later

Dave