Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

[Dave...]

You are missing the critical point. 'Elohiym desires what is genuine, not what is hollow. Specifically, 'Elohiym seeks genuine love (John 14:21, John 16:27, Matthew 10:37, Matthew 22:34-40, etc.) and genuine worship (John 4:23) from people. However, if 'Elohiym predestines people to do these things, then 'Elohiym would receive hollow, unreal versions of these things, for nothing would exist but puppeteered motions.

I don't believe it is hollow. I think it would be wrong to assume that it is. Do you take God at His Word?

1 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and Grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, He saved us. Paul says to share with him in the sufferings for the Gospel according...to the power of God.

Eph. 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Genesis 20:6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.(think about this one for a minute)

Exodus 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Psalm 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Lucky, what people are doing is taking one of the great truths of God's Word that has offered Great comfort to Christians since the Gospel began to be preached and traded it in for a philosophy that has nothing to do with God's Word. This Freedom of mans will, as you define it, is nowhere taught in scripture. To use that philosophy as a starting point and as some kind of grid for all other doctrines to be tested by, and if they fail this test they are rejected, even when the Bible speaks so clearly on God's sovereignty over all He created, is a mistake.

When a tragedy happens in my life I take comfort in knowing that God is in control. Start out with Biblical truths and build from them, comparing scripture with scripture, because God's Word never lies.

Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Isaiah 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Gotta Go, have fun in your time with your wife Lucky,

Dave

[Kelly4Jesus]

What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will?

 

 
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WHAT IS GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY?
Sovereignty is God's absolute and exclusive right to exercise authority in the universe (I Chron 29:11-12; I Sam 2:6-8; Psa 50:10-11). He holds this prerogative because of the perfections of His character and because of His position as creator and governor of the universe. As creator, His dominion is perfect and His decrees are final. Because of his authority as governor, He is to be obeyed.

WHAT ARE THE DECREES OF GOD?

The decrees of God are a name for His eternal purpose, based on His most wise and holy counsel. By these decrees, He freely and unchangeably ordained all that comes to pass. His decrees include both those things that are ordained efficaciously (that is, by God using His power to produce an intended effect) and those that are ordained permissively.

WERE THERE SEVERAL DECREES?

To speak precisely, no. Some prefer to use the singular term "decree." God has one plan, in which He used His ability to be fully aware of past, present and future simultaneously. He saw it all at once, and He ordained it all at once.
However, to study it and discuss it, we separate the parts that were included in it. God's plan included the decision to:


Create all - including angels and all humans;
Permit the fall - of both Satan and his angels, and Adam;
Provide salvation - for all people (John 1:29);
Elect some (those who believe), and leave in just condemnation those who do not believe (John 1:11-13);
Apply salvation - to all who believe (John 5:24).
WHAT ARE THE TWO OUTSTANDING PROBLEMS UNDER THE QUESTION OF DECREES?

The presence of sin in the world.

If God is the efficient cause of all that is, then He is the author of sin; and if He is the author of sin, how can it be morally right for Him to condemn man to an endless hell for doing what He caused him to do?

The freedom of the will.
Does the decree to save some overrule the freedom of the human will? Does God simply choose me to be saved, or do I have the freedom to choose for or against Him?
HOW DO WE ANSWER THE PROBLEM OF THE PRESENCE OF SIN IN THE WORLD?
We need to distinguish between efficacious decrees, which actually make things happen through physical causes, and permissive decrees, which God does not actually promote. His permissive will permits Him to permit whatever He thinks fit to permit (or to not hinder). Whatever He permits, He also intends to regulate and use ultimately to bring about wise and great purposes of His own.

DID GOD KNOW WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO ABOUT SIN WHEN HE PERMITTED ITS EXISTENCE?

He permitted sin in the light of what He knew would be the nature of sin, or what sin would do to the creature, and of what He would have to do if He was to save anyone.

[Why is the world the way it is? (filled with oppression, death and cruelty) If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loving, would He really create a world like this? Answer]

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO PERMIT SIN AND YET NOT BE THE AUTHOR OF SIN?

Sin was permitted, but God did not cause or necessitate it. This is demonstrated by:
The threatenings of punishment for sin (Gen 2:17; Ex 34:7; Ecc 11:9; 2 Thess 1:7-8). Punishment for sin implies personal responsibility.
The declarations of the psalmist (Psa 78:29-31; 106:15).
The statements of Paul (Acts 14:16; 17:30-31).
The holy character of God that separates Him from all sin (Lev 11:44; Heb 12:10).
WHAT POSSIBLE PURPOSES COULD SERVE BY PERMITTING SIN?
First, that men might recognize its evil, enslaving character (Rom 1:18-32). Second, that God might demonstrate His grace (Rom 5:20-6:2). And third, that the principle of evil might be brought into complete and final judgment (Acts 17:30-31).

DOES THE DECREE TO SAVE OVERRULE THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL?

The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person's own volition or will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action. We are never as uninfluenced as we think.
Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual's part and God's part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God's influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).


HOW DO WE KNOW THAT GOD FREES MAN'S WILL SO HE CAN TURN TO GOD?

The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).

WHAT IS “GRACIOUS ELECTION”?
Gracious election is the sovereign act of God by which from all eternity He graciously chose in Christ Jesus for Himself, and on account of no foreseen merit, certain sinful ones to be the recipients of His special saving grace (John 1:11-13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 9:20; Eph 1:4; II Thess 2:14).

Author: Paul E. Eymann, distinguished Professor of Bible.

 










   

[Dave...]

Hi Kelly.

Which part of your quote, if any, do you think that I would disagree with? Or do you think it's in line with what i've been saying?

In Christ

Dave

[Kelly4Jesus]

Hi Dave,
I am not disagreeing with anyone. I am one of those types that believe in God knowing all and Him being mysterious. We can debate all we want but, when the time comes God will reveal it to us all. We can debate anything in human terms but only God knows the truth about every situation. When Jesus returns soon, earth and heaven shall be the same (Our Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven). I am simply waiting on His Truth to be told to us, as promised. I debate nothing of what anyone says. I just wait on God.

I BELIEVE (me, myself and I) that, God gave us all free will. He did NOT give us faith, per se but the ability to have faith. He gave us choice on whether to follow that faith and come to Him or, to defy Him and go our own way. When the day of His return to earth, those that chose not to follow Him will be dealt with according to His Wrath.

I do believe faith is a gift. However, like any gift that is received we have a choice on whether to turn it in for something we think we want more (which usually turns out to be the wrong choice in human terms) or, we accept it with all the love and Grace it came with. I don't believe in predestiny, but only that God does know our destiny. It is up to us whether to follow His Path that we are given with Grace and by His being a sovereign God. He allows us to stumble, but it is up to us whether we take His hand and get up, or completely to fall from that Grace.

I stumble many times but reach up and the hand of God is right there for me. Praise Jesus!

Those are MY beliefs. If they are way off, God will let me know in His Time. As of now, all I feel I have to do is believe in Him, Worship Him, Follow His lead and continue to grasp for His Hand when I make the wrong choices.

God Bless,
Kelly

[Dave...]

The reason that I asked is because at first glance your quote looked like it was going to support free will in the libertarian sense, but in examining a little closer, barring a few points made that were obscure enough that I really couldn't say whether I disagreed or not, for the most part, that quote doesn't really teach anything different than what I've been saying, at least not to the best of my understanding.

Let me explain.

People of the reformed theology, mainly those you would call Calvinists, use the term "free will" also, but we would not be as liberal in our definition as some may be. We hold true to scripture. The reason that i'm telling you this is when I speak to other people who I know have a different definition of "free will" than what I believe that scripture teaches, I go out of my way not to use the term "free will" because I know that a faulty definition will be assumed into the meaning. You may have found a link that uses the term "free will", but I believe that it is probably assumed in the writers eyes, based on what he wrote, that he is not speaking of a libertarian free will.

I say this because of many things that the writer said.

The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person's own volition or will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action. We are never as uninfluenced as we think.
Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual's part and God's part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God's influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).

Barring what was sandwiched in the middle that I had a hard time determining what exactly the writer meant (since there was no scripture given for the point being made), I agree with the rest of it that I put in bold print.

Also this...

WHAT IS “GRACIOUS ELECTION”?
Gracious election is the sovereign act of God by which from all eternity He graciously chose in Christ Jesus for Himself, and on account of no foreseen merit, certain sinful ones to be the recipients of His special saving grace (John 1:11-13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 9:20; Eph 1:4; II Thess 2:14).


Dave

[Kelly4Jesus]

Hi Dave,
As I said, I won't debate it any further--for I have my beliefs and, if I am way off, God will tell me when it is His Time to do so. I just know that, I was of no faith for seven years. I felt His touch one day and responded to it. That is the key--I could have ignored it (as I have friends that do that when they feel God but say it isn't so and reject it), or I had the choice to follow His lead. I chose that lead. God just left it open for me to make that choice.

I believe God will let us do what we want to do, knowing all along those that will never be saved and those that will open their heart to do so. I believe He gives us a choice, right down to a sin that, even though we know it is wrong or have done it before, we choose to do it anyway. God knows what our choice will be, long before we make it. However, he allows us to go through those and then, if we choose to go to Him with it, He will lead us with His Light and continue to do so as His Children.

If I am wrong, I will find out and there will be no questions--only answers. That is the day that I rejoince in, when pain and suffering on earth are no more!

God Bless,
Kelly

[Shammu]

This is my own opinion, which I will not debate.

God has a chosen people - an "elect" Rom. 8:33; Eph. 1:4-6. However God chose first one way of salvation (law) and then another (grace). The law never saved Gal. 3:21-22. God allowed all who sought to come to Him by faith in the time of Christ and before Christ Heb 11. In fact, the same promise given in Matthew 7:7 that all who seek will find to New Testament people was first given in Jeremiah 29:13 to Old Testament people. So, all who sought are chosen, all who are chosen are elect Rom. 8:28-30 In other words, only the elect are saved, but anyone who seeks God is part of the elect. The real question, I think is, "What is the relation between God's choice and our choosing?"

If every person on the wrong side of that line is there because they want to be, then they are to blame - not God. Jesus knew that many would not follow Him Mt. 7:14, but that does not mean He is to blame (so long as all who would choose could choose Him.

The Bible clearly portrays man as having a free will. Many verses clearly call for a response from man Rom. 6:23; Mt. 23:37; Jn. 1:12; Deut. 30:19; Josh 24:15, and these responses are predicated on man's ability to choose to respond. These verses would be asking the impossible if man were not free to choose.

Before creation God had all things in His mind. He knew all there was to know about every single thing in His mind - rocks, trees, air, planets, animals, triangles,  and man. Now, if God created a triangle it had to be a three sided geometric figure because that is what it is by nature. In the same way, if God created people He had to make creatures with free will, for that is what people are by nature that is not all that they are, but it is an essential element.

So God knew what their free will would be used for and He chose that it would be so Acts 13:48. He is the primary cause of all our actions - but we are the secondary causes and are therefore accountable for what we do even though it is God who gave us the ability to choose and even knew exactly what we would choose when he created us. So God chooses His elect those that freely chose to follow Him, and He did this choosing before time began which is why we say He foreknew and predestined.

Jesus died for all people John 3:16; 1 Jn. 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1; Rom. 5:6-10; etc.. This does not mean that all will come to Him, only that salvation has been offered to all. Christ died for all sin, the price has been paid for all people, but not all people accept it. A gift may be paid for, but is of no value to the person who does not possess it.

Look at it this way, I freely chose to go to church this morning. Now that that event is in the past it is no longer possible to change it, it is determined and unalterable. Well, when God knows a thing it is not tensed, it is not in time. So when God knows a thing He knows it perfectly as its cause and immediately outside of time. God can see the future just like we see the past better actually. So just as I can say that my going to church is fixed and unchangeable, God can say that what I will do tomorrow is fixed and unchangeable - but still free.

The language in Romans 9 might make it sound like Pharoah's heart was forced. But notice that God hardened Pharaoh in Exodus. God solitified what was already in his heart, He did not force Pharaoh against his will. Pharaoh was free, and as such he alone is responsible for his choices, and as such he will be judged. God caused Pharaoh's actions to be possible, but Pharaoh caused them to be actual.

Well I guess, I've gone on long enough.

[Kelly4Jesus]

I wanna debate the debate!!!!! *stomps feet and pouts*

Now, I throw a pie, just cuz I wanna! My free will! 

[Shammu]

Now, throw a pie, just cuz I wanna! My free will! 

Okay Kelly remember, you asked for it...................................... 

edited to add; Look at your quote there Kelly. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Now, I throw a pie, just cuz I wanna! My free will! 

Now that is funny!