Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

[Kelly4Jesus]

Let me try this another way. What work will you glorify yourself for doing without God? What desire do you have that is good that was not given to you by God. A simple list will do.

Personally, I don't think anyone should write a list of any good that they do. God keeps the list and for us to claim it in this manner you describe, it would only look like vanity in one's self, as well as "bragging". We are to do things in God's Name for His Glory and His Glory alone. Each of us has our own way of following the leads of our Father, in the way that Jesus tells us to do, and only has to account for those task with God.

I do as God tells me to do. That is where FREE WILL comes in. I could choose to turn my back on someone that needs my help, or not tithe when I could spend the money or something else I think I need. I can ignore the pulling of the Holy Spirit and not pray. These are all MY CHOICE, for I accepted Jesus as my Savior--professing that with my lips and my heart. I know some that don't believe in God's calling and ignore what they should do because they would rather do what is pleasing to them. That is where CHOICE comes in. God's plan can only be followed if we follow the teachings that the Bible tells us to follow. God know us all before we were born, for He knitted us in our mother's womb. Yet, He gave us a choice on how we would fulfill His calling for our life. If we don't follow His plan, then it is up to us to reap what we sow upon Jesus' return.

Salvation doesn't come from works alone. I know many that believe that, but salvation comes from professing and believing that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. Only through Him do we get to our Father. You can go out and hand out bagged lunches to homeless people, or help out a stranger that is in need-that is what we are supposed to do as Christians. However, if you still don't believe in Christ while doing these works, they mean nothing on judgment day. For, you have followed your own ways for your own glory--and not for the Glory of God, and in the Name of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ.

That is my belief, anyway.

God Bless,
Kelly

[Dave...]

I believe (and am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) but, God's Will is something that we choose to follow or not. What God wants from us is not always the path that we choose, if we are not faithful to His guidance. That is where FREE WILL comes in. Yes, God has a plan for all of us. But, even in the case of Joseph, that plan came to light because Joseph had faith. FAITH is the key word there in God's plan working for the good of all of us.

I am thankful that even when we make the wrong choice, and still suffer the consequences, that God will work it out to our good. We would not choose to follow God's will if it were not for His mercy by grace.

Romans 12:3 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have?  Even our repentance and perseverance are gifts from God. All these things are a result of His grace (Eph 2:8-10), and when it is not sourced in His Grace, it comes from the flesh. God calls these works from the flesh filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It is only of His Grace according to His mercy that we are saved (Titus 3:5).

Once we look to ourselves and trying to establish our own righteousness as if we have done something outside of His grace, we are giving evidence that we may be rejecting the one thing that can save us, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-4)

http://www.tpgh.org/FTGW.htm

Kelly, i'm sorry that you are going through so much suffering. Always keep your focus on the big picture, His eternal purpose, and the trials of your life will not overwelm you. This is something that I had to learn the hard way. In a world that likes it's standard pat answers, for someone who needed to know more, much of the watered down Gospel preaching was very frustrating for me. Here are a few things that helped me a great deal when I needed it most. I hope that they bless you as much as they have blessed me.

How God Uses Suffering--Part 1
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-83.htm

How God Uses Suffering--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-84.htm

Personally, I don't think anyone should write a list of any good that they do. God keeps the list and for us to claim it in this manner you describe, it would only look like vanity in one's self, as well as "bragging". We are to do things in God's Name for His Glory and His Glory alone. Each of us has our own way of following the leads of our Father, in the way that Jesus tells us to do, and only has to account for those task with God.

I didn't really want a list, I guess I was making a point  . I think..., I hope that Joe understood that. A list with anything on it would be wrong, that was the point that I was trying to make. We give God all the glory because He actually deserves all of it. For without Him we could do nothing.

I do as God tells me to do. That is where FREE WILL comes in. I could choose to turn my back on someone that needs my help, or not tithe when I could spend the money or something else I think I need. I can ignore the pulling of the Holy Spirit and not pray. These are all MY CHOICE, for I accepted Jesus as my Savior--professing that with my lips and my heart. I know some that don't believe in God's calling and ignore what they should do because they would rather do what is pleasing to them. That is where CHOICE comes in. God's plan can only be followed if we follow the teachings that the Bible tells us to follow. God know us all before we were born, for He knitted us in our mother's womb. Yet, He gave us a choice on how we would fulfill His calling for our life. If we don't follow His plan, then it is up to us to reap what we sow upon Jesus' return.

Yes, we have a choice, but no one could make the right choice unless God moves first in their lives.

Salvation doesn't come from works alone. I know many that believe that, but salvation comes from professing and believing that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. Only through Him do we get to our Father. You can go out and hand out bagged lunches to homeless people, or help out a stranger that is in need-that is what we are supposed to do as Christians. However, if you still don't believe in Christ while doing these works, they mean nothing on judgment day. For, you have followed your own ways for your own glory--and not for the Glory of God, and in the Name of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ.

We are saved by the righteousness of God, Jesus' imputed righteousness. The only way we can be imputed with His  righteousness is by faith, once we begin to use "works and faith" under the title of faith, we are not speaking of faith anymore. Works, whether good or bad, will always be a result of our salvation, or lack of, but never the cause. See Roman 10:3-4.

Also here http://s8.invisionfree.com/philippians3/index.php?showtopic=194

Gotta go, Joe, are you still with us?

Dave

[Kelly4Jesus]

Hey Dave!
Yeah, still with it although that is always up for debate itself. 

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have?  Even our repentance and perseverance are gifts from God. All these things are a result of His grace (Eph 2:8-10), and when it is not sourced in His Grace, it comes from the flesh. God calls these works from the flesh filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It is only of His Grace according to His mercy that we are saved (Titus 3:5).

Oh, boy did you hit my faith on the head. I not only is my faith a gift from God but an HONOR for me to have. I have been in that dark place where there was no faith, yet God never lost faith in me. I am ever grateful to Him for being in my heart and my life! I choose God, yes..but God chose ME! How sweet is that gift? Beyond any words that I can post here brother!

Kelly, i'm sorry that you are going through so much suffering. Always keep your focus on the big picture, His eternal purpose, and the trials of your life will not overwelm you. This is something that I had to learn the hard way. In a world that likes it's standard pat answers, for someone who needed to know more, much of the watered down Gospel preaching was very frustrating for me. Here are a few things that helped me a great deal when I needed it most. I hope that they bless you as much as they have blessed me.

Brother, I was not implying that my suffering was something of an issue. My suffering, as I see it has NO COMPARISON AT ALL to how badly Jesus suffered for me. I consider it a privilege to have gone through trials, even though at the time, it didn't seem that way. I have grown, and God has the one that made me grow. Without His guidance and Loving Hands over my situations, I know how I would be--bitter, rebellious, unloving, distant--Been there, done that. I would rather be God's Child and look to Him for help when it comes to life's pains. He has never let me down.

God has saved me from many things. I was supposed to be aborted, yet my Grandmother stopped my mother and took me in. Right there I know of God's purpose for me in His Plan. I grew up emotionally and physically abused, although not as bad as others. I was drinking by 12, smoking pot by 15 and doing cocaine by the age of 18. God not only stood by me as I went through all this, but pulled me out and used it to His Glory. Even when I buried my 4th child, He led me to build a website that helped thousands of people over the past 7 years. I have 5 living children, 3 with severe special needs (2 with autism and one with mild cerebral palsy), and I feel these children are a unique gift from Him, and know that He has given me strength and love that I could never have had if I didn't have faith. God restored my marriage. God restored my faith in churches by leading me to a place that is rich in Christianity. I could go on and on but, as for suffering, I no longer worry  but ask for prayer instead. With the power of God, I know I will make it through and somehow, with what He has allowed me to learn, I will help others to His Glory.

Yes, we have a choice, but no one could make the right choice unless God moves first in their lives.

Amen to THAT ONE!

We are saved by the righteousness of God, Jesus' imputed righteousness. The only way we can be imputed with His  righteousness is by faith, once we begin to use "works and faith" under the title of faith, we are not speaking of faith anymore. Works, whether good or bad, will always be a result of our salvation, or lack of, but never the cause. See Roman 10:3-4.

I think why I brought that up is that, many believe that, salvation comes from works alone. Those that believe this have not truly engulfed themselves in The Word, and what Jesus has taught us. Our paths are to be TRULY for His Glory. If we walk along side of Him, no matter how many times we stumble, He will be right there to take our hand. The walk must be a profession of faith, as well as a walk that shows the true love of Christ. Unfortunately, some don't believe this is true and stop walking after they profess Jesus is their Savior. It goes deeper than that, as you are well aware.

We must continue to spread the Word and to ask God for guidance, as well as strength to be obedient to Him. I pray deeply in the Holy Spirit every night and that is one of the first things I ask for -- obedience in His Will for me! Praise Jesus!

I have to run too. Who would have known that, having 5 kids, I had to feed them too? 

I Praise God for all my blessings and can never express my love an gratitude to Jesus enough. No matter how much I praise Him, it will never compare to how much He has done/will do for us! Magnified is His Name! Thank You Jesus!

God Bless,
Kelly

[ibTina]

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have? 

   Yes.. Yes.... and YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!


              Happy in Jesus.. Tina

[LuckyStrike]

I must refere back to the definition given earlier.

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.

[...]every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance,[...]

Nobody has ever taken away the choice, but the ability to make the right choice is impossible unless God acts first.

Your replies are self-contradicting. Does 'Elohiym pre-ordain all of our "choices," or simply our good "choices"?

Again, we are not puppets, we are free to follow the desires of our hearts. But also keep in mind what was posted in the third and fourth post of this thread. Nobody has ever taken away the choice, but the ability to make the right choice is impossible unless God acts first.

Are you referencing the doctrine of Total Depravity? If so, then I ask:

Did Christ Jesus inherit a hereditary "depraved nature" from Mary (ref. Hebrews 2:14, 17, Hebrews 4:15)?

But so is the Trinity,[...]

This reply is a strawman argument. You are presupposing that Compatibilist Predestination is a valid "mystery." However, you have not explained why this paradox is a valid mystery, as opposed to erroneous illogical logic.

God providencially governs all things. He works all things according to His will (Eph 1:11), all things work for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28), etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And where does Epeshians 1:11 and Romans 8:28 mention Total Predestination? For instance, how do you know that these versese describe Total Predestination, as opposed to the divine guidance of all earthly situations? The highlighted phraseology does not evidence Total Predestination, unless one appeals to semantical presuppositions inserted into the text.

In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6)

John 16:7 [NIV]
I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

"Gave them to [Christ Jesus]" under what context? Pre-ordained salvation or delegated authority?

Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22).

Romans 9 [NIV]
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " [a] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Since this passage utilizes a potter-clay analogy, one must interpret this passage accordingly.

When a potter makes pots, he does not simply shape clay into pots. Instead, the potter starts by shaping clay, with a product in mind. After this, the potter puts the shaped clay into an oven, to harden the shape of the clay. However, while in the oven, some of the pots may break, distort, or take on bad colors, while others may turn out as intended. When the process of hardening in completed, the potter removes the pots from the oven, then inspects them. The rejected pots are shattered on the ground, then gathered into a discard heap.

Likewise, 'Elohiym shapes people out of certain materials (ref. Psalm 139:13), while having goals for them in mind. After this, 'Elohiym puts them into the world to develop them. While in the world, some people change for the better, while others change for the worse. When their time in the world is completed, 'Elohiym removes them from the world, then judges the person (ref. Hebrews 9:27). The people that 'Elohiym rejects are condemned, then thrown into hell.

Therefore, the potter-clay analogy allows for free will.

Now, Romans 9:22 says "prepared for destruction" under what context? Eternal torment or earthly punishment?

What desire do you have that is good that was not given to you by God. A simple list will do.

I choose to love 'Elohiym. Now, how can I genuinely choose to love 'Elohiym, if I cannot choose to hate 'Elohiym? Plus, how can I love 'Elohiym, if my love does not come from me? Is not love a relational reaction between different parties?

Here is the scripture used to support the five points. Can you show me which ones led you to believe that Calvinism teaches these things..

"Predestined choice"??  I don't believe that i've ever used those words or even implied what I think you mean by them.

Dave, you are denying the obvious with semantical gameplay. If you believe that 'Elohiym pre-ordains, or causes, absolutely all things, then you advocate Total Predestination.

I think that was the point being made.

No. We are saying "the same thing," but under different contexts, as demonstrated by this reply.

[Dave...]

Sorry i've been so short on time that I haven't had time to reply. Kelly, your whole post was a blessing. I can honestly say that you made my day. You go girl 

Hi Tina. 

Luckystrike, i'm out of time already. Sorry for the wait, but i'll need to try to get in here tomorrow. I'll see if I can print your post so I can go over it more thoroughly. Last time I tried to print something from this forum I only got the ads, but not the posts.

God Bless

Dave

[LuckyStrike]

Luckystrike, i'm out of time already. Sorry for the wait, but i'll need to try to get in here tomorrow. I'll see if I can print your post so I can go over it more thoroughly. Last time I tried to print something from this forum I only got the ads, but not the posts.

Sounds good. But before I discontinue my replies for today, I wish to add one quick reply.

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have?

My personal faith is a gift from 'Elohiym? I disagree. I assume that you are referencing the Calvinistic interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2 [NIV]
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

"Gift of God" under what context? Faith is a gift from 'Elohiym or salvation through faith is a gift from 'Elohiym?

[Kelly4Jesus]

Faith becomes a gift from God when we have faith in Him. His gift of Grace and Mercy is upon us. What greater gift than the gift of Jesus Christ, our Savior? No, faith alone is not a gift, but a choice for us to either have or to have not. However, it becomes a gift when we have faith in our Father for, we then receive all His gifts that come free once we become His faithful child.

I think that is what is meant. It is up to each of us to gain this gift. We only have to do one thing: Profess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Through Him, we come to the Father. Our gifts are priceless and unexplanable, for they are infinite when our God gives these gifts to us.

In other words, you can chose not to follow God and receive his gifts, but you will not enjoy salvation without that faith. Once you have faith in our Lord and Savior and come to Him, your gifts are countless. I personally am proud to receive ALL his gifts, for I am not worthy of this but receive it because of His Unconditional Love and Grace that is given to me.

God Bless,
Kelly

[Dave...]

Hey all,

Lucky,

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.

God's Words is not only unapologetic, but also relentless in teaching God's complete sovereignty over all He created, every rain drop that falls, every lot that is drawn, every sparrow that falls, that none of these things happen contrary to His decree, but because he ordains them to happen. His word also teaches us, that man makes responsible choices and will be held accountable for them. The Bible also teaches both of these truths in the same breath more than a few times.

Who wrote the book of Romans? Was it Paul? Or was it God? If God coerced Paul to write exactly as He wanted, then how can Paul honestly say that he is writing this letter? Is Paul lying? If I tell you that both wrote the book of Romans, that it was 100% Paul, and 100% God, will you then say that this is "is a self-contradictory non-answer"?

When you answer this question, you will see the point being made in the first. We need to get rid of the idea that for man to make a responsible choice, that God must forfeit some of His sovereignty. This simply isn't Biblical and is nowhere taught in scripture.

Lucky, I wish that I had all day, because I would like to answer your whole post now in great detail, but time will not allow anymore today. See ya tomorrow, Lord willing.

Peace

Dave

[LuckyStrike]

God's Words is not only unapologetic, but also relentless in teaching God's complete sovereignty over all He created, every rain drop that falls, every lot that is drawn, every sparrow that falls, that none of these things happen contrary to His decree, but because he ordains them to happen.

You are missing the critical point. 'Elohiym desires what is genuine, not what is hollow. Specifically, 'Elohiym seeks genuine love (John 14:21, John 16:27, Matthew 10:37, Matthew 22:34-40, etc.) and genuine worship (John 4:23) from people. However, if 'Elohiym predestines people to do these things, then 'Elohiym would receive hollow, unreal versions of these things, for nothing would exist but puppeteered motions.

For instance, I choose to love 'Elohiym. Now, how can I genuinely choose to love 'Elohiym, if I cannot choose to hate 'Elohiym? Plus, how can I love 'Elohiym, if my love does not come from me? Love is a relational reaction. A loving relationship is a binding relational reaction between different parties. Both of these things are "two way streets," not "one way round trips."

Dave, I do not enjoy repeating myself. But, since you are avoiding this point, among others, I must do so. Please address this issue.

His word also teaches us, that man makes responsible choices and will be held accountable for them.

Under Total Predestination, 'Elohiym causes, or preordains, all moral evil or sin, yet 'Elohiym still punishes sinful beings for their sin. Now, how can 'Elohiym punish sinful beings for sins that 'Elohiym predestined them to do? And how does this assertion not slander 'Elohiym's character?

Who wrote the book of Romans? Was it Paul? Or was it God? If God coerced Paul to write exactly as He wanted, then how can Paul honestly say that he is writing this letter? Is Paul lying? If I tell you that both wrote the book of Romans, that it was 100% Paul, and 100% God, will you then say that this is "is a self-contradictory non-answer"?

Hold on a second. When did God the Spirit dictate a word-for-word message for Paul to write? How do you know that God the Spirit did not inspire a non-verbal message within Paul, but Paul expressed this message in his own way? This argument comes across as a "grey area" presuppositional argument, not an argument of substance.

We need to get rid of the idea that for man to make a responsible choice, that God must forfeit some of His sovereignty. This simply isn't Biblical and is nowhere taught in scripture.

Why is Total Predestination necessary for maintaining 'Elohiym's sovereignty? Is 'Elohiym not capable of influencing free will without nullifying free will?

Lucky, I wish that I had all day, because I would like to answer your whole post now in great detail, but time will not allow anymore today. See ya tomorrow, Lord willing.

No problem. Our immediate priorities must come first. Take care, Dave.

[Dave...]

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.

I dealt with this already.

]Your replies are self-contradicting. Does 'Elohiym pre-ordain all of our "choices," or simply our good "choices"?

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I will talk more about this later. Yes, God does ordain these things.

Proverbs 20:24 (NASB for clarity) 24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 21:1 1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Job 14:5 5 ( speaking of “Man who is born of woman" vs.1 ) Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You;  You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.

Lamentations 3:37 37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?

I'll stop here to conserve space.

Are you referencing the doctrine of Total Depravity? If so, then I ask:

Did Christ Jesus inherit a hereditary "depraved nature" from Mary ...Hebrews 2:14, 17, Hebrews 4:15?

First your question assumes things that simply are not true, and also using Jesus as a comparison to what unregenerate man has to deal with is not a good idea either. There are so many places we could take this, so i'll just start shooting from the hip and hope something clicks for you.

Yes, the verses you quoted and context say that Jesus took on the human nature, meaning the nature of all men, but does this mean he took on a sinful nature? The context says that the temptations that Jesus faced were the same as believers face, which is very different than an unregenerate heart. The temptations, as in His temptation by Satan in the Desert for forty days, didn't begin until after He was filled with the Spirit. So using this scripture as somehow proving something that what an unregenerate man can or cannot do is useless. But the problems don't end there. Depravity/spiritual blindness is not a nature but a condition that results from our "sinful nature". Spiritual blindness is judicially inflicted (John 12:40, Matthew 13:13). Spiritual blindness is the result of sin. We are all sinners and as a result we all knew spiritual blindness (Romans 3:10-18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8). But Jesus never knew sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Did Jesus face the temptations that result from sin, even the temptations that a sinful believer would face? Jesus didn't need a sacrifice for himself, but we as man do (Hebrews 7:27).  Jesus is fully God, and was fully man at the same time, we are not. Jesus did not limit Himself in His humanity, but veiled His reincarnate Glory. In other words, Taking on human nature was not a subtraction, but an addition to His being fully God. If He had ceased being any of His Godly attributes He would have ceased being God. So making a comparison to sinful unregenerate man because because Jesus suffered temptations that believers have is a bad comparison for many reasons. Even within the context, comparing Jesus, who was the creator of the household of faith to Moses, who was only part of God's household is a mistake. Isn't this the whole point of Hebrews, That Jesus is God and is superior to all the prophets, angels, types etc.?

It would be a mistake to say that Christ was merely able not to sin. Christ was not able to sin. The testing Proved His sinlessness and made Him a sympathizing high priest. The reality of testing does not lie in the moral nature of the one tested and the possibility of sympathizing does not depend on the one to one correspondence in the problems faced. 

I'll be back.

[Dave...]

This reply is a strawman argument. You are presupposing that Compatibilist Predestination is a valid "mystery." However, you have not explained why this paradox is a valid mystery, as opposed to erroneous illogical logic.

You were implying that because you couldn't reason out the fact that God is completely sovereign and man can, and does make a responsible choice, even though I have given scriptural evidence, and can give more, that it must be false because you could reason it out. My point was simply that you would need to reject the trinity based on those same standards for determining truth. These things are mysteries because we cannot fully understand through reason, but we accept them because scripture clearly teaches both. They are not mysteries because they cannot be found in scripture, as your comment seems to suggest.

To accept the mystery of the trinity because scripture clearly teaches it, even when we can't understand how it all fits together, and then at the same time reject the clear scripture that teaches that God is completely sovereign, that nothing happens by chance, because you cannot reconcile it with mans responsible choice, which the Bible also clearly teaches leads me to ask...Why use different standards for determining the truth when confronted with God's sovereignty?

And where does Epeshians 1:11 and Romans 8:28 mention Total Predestination? For instance, how do you know that these versese describe Total Predestination, as opposed to the divine guidance of all earthly situations? The highlighted phraseology does not evidence Total Predestination, unless one appeals to semantical presuppositions inserted into the text.

It doesn't, that is your straw man that you are trying to pin on me because you don't understand. I'll write more on this in my answer to your next question.

Dave, you are denying the obvious with semantical gameplay. If you believe that 'Elohiym pre-ordains, or causes, absolutely all things, then you advocate Total Predestination.

What you are accusing me of teaching is not total predestination, but it's called double predestination. No I don't teach that either. God ordains everything, predestination is not the same as ordain. I don't recall ever reading in God's Word that anyone was ever predestined for hell. So let's be careful not to put words into God's mouth. We were all destined for hell based on our own merits, Him, having mercy on some to display His Glory (and other reasons) chose/predestined those He foreknew/foreloved. It had nothing to do with anything that we did. See the thread on Roman 8:29 in this same forum.

John 16:7 [NIV]
I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

"Gave them to [Christ Jesus]" under what context? Pre-ordained salvation or delegated authority?

Context...John 17:2-3 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Since this passage utilizes a potter-clay analogy, one must interpret this passage accordingly....

Therefore, the potter-clay analogy allows for free will.

You are reading into the passage something that is not there. The potter analogy is not speaking of libertarian free will. Paul is arguing that it is irrational and far more arrogant for men to question God's choice of certain sinners to salvation than it would be for a pc. of pottery to question the purposes of the Potter.

Now, Romans 9:22 says "prepared for destruction" under what context? Eternal

Contrast with vs. 23 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

My personal faith is a gift from 'Elohiym? I disagree. I assume that you are referencing the Calvinistic interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2 [NIV]
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

"Gift of God" under what context? Faith is a gift from 'Elohiym or salvation through faith is a gift from 'Elohiym?

Context...Eph. 2:8 "you have been saved" "through faith" that comes to us "by grace". "not from yourselves", "not by works" meaning not from the flesh, but from Grace, i.e. a gift.

This is for you to Kelly.

Philippians 1:29 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Also see Romans 12:3, and Eph. 6:23. We are saved by a faith that is gifted to us by grace. Are faith continues by grace

I'll try to catch up tomorrow if I haven't already answered your latest post in answering todays questions.

Peace

Dave

[LuckyStrike]

Thanks for the reply, Dave. However, my wife is off work for the next three days, so I will spend this time with her. I will have to catch up later.

In the meantime, take care. 

[Kelly4Jesus]

 
Hey, how did I end up back in this? You two were doing very well on your own! lol

Bro, I don't consider my life suffering. I think I would worry if it was all grand and dandy, because I was either missing something or completely dead! On the contrary my life, with God in control is very blessed. As long as I have Jesus in my life, there is no suffering here. I would be suffering without Him!

Lucky, your wife is very blessed! The way that you worded how precious you are spending the time that God gave you made me smile! Have a great time spending time together. See you when you get back.

God Bless,
Kelly

[Dave...]

Luckystrike wrote:
 

Thanks for the reply, Dave. However, my wife is off work for the next three days, so I will spend this time with her. I will have to catch up later.

In the meantime, take care.

No problem, I have some catching up to do anyways.

Kelly wrote:

Hey, how did I end up back in this? You two were doing very well on your own! lol

Bro, I don't consider my life suffering. I think I would worry if it was all grand and dandy, because I was either missing something or completely dead!  On the contrary my life, with God in control is very blessed. As long as I have Jesus in my life, there is no suffering here. I would be suffering without Him!

  Now i'm confused. Wait...I was replying to your last thread about faith. A few posts before that I thought that you claimed to believe that faith was a gift from God, but in your last post you seemed to be backtracking a bit "No, faith alone is not a gift, but a choice for us to either have or to have not. However, it becomes a gift when we have faith in our Father for, we then receive all His gifts that come free once we become His faithful child.
applying some "I came to faith on my own, but then thanked God afterward" reasoning. That's all. Nothing to do with suffering.

I'm on a public computer so I'm limited on time most of the time. What I usually do is print out the post so I can answer the questions at home and then just type them in later. But printing out the posts on this forum has become very difficult for some reason, but I did find a way around it, it just took a while to figure it out.

Peace

Dave