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Author Topic: ICE.............  (Read 3453 times)
linssue55
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« on: May 18, 2006, 05:33:31 PM »

Has anyone here been taught to interperate the bible this way?  My church calls it "ICE"........





We teach Isagogically.

That means we consider the historical, geographical, economic, political, & cultural elements of the time period in which the Scriptures were written. An accurate interpretation of the Word of God without such due consideration is impossible.



We teach Categorically.

That means we develop particular topics, or doctrines of Scripture, according to the entire revealed Word of God. We correlate each individual doctrine to other doctrines in Scripture, and to the overall revelation of God's Word. For example, the Doctrine of Soteriology (salvation), would have several other doctrines included within and related to it, such as the Doctrine of Redemption, the Doctrine of Justification, the Doctrine of Reconciliation, the Doctrine of Propitiation, etc. An accurate interpretation of any portion of Scripture is impossible without an understanding of how that portion relates to the entire body of Scriptures.


 
We teach Exegetically.

That means we teach verse-by-verse from the original Hebrew and Greek texts. An accurate interpretation of God's Word must include an accurate understanding of the original meaning of the original words to the original audience of each particular passage of Scripture.
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airIam2worship
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2006, 05:40:22 PM »

Hello linssue, I don't believe I've had the chance to welcome you, so welcome to CU.

linssue,  what church do you attend, I've never heard of the term ICE
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PS 91:2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust
linssue55
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2006, 06:33:42 PM »

Hello linssue, I don't believe I've had the chance to welcome you, so welcome to CU.

linssue,  what church do you attend, I've never heard of the term ICE


Hello, glad to be here.  My church for the last 33 years has been Berachah (means Blessings in Hebrew)  in Huston Tx..  My pastor has alzhiemers now and can no longer teach, so his son is now the pastor.  There are several pastors on the web that I listen to that were ordained by my pastor of over 30 years, that teach the ICE way.  Knowing the originals languages and the syntex in the way the words were written and their true meanings, has made the word of God so clear for my edification. 

I live in Az. so I listen to my new PT off the web, right along with the congregation.  Going to Tx. every day for learning and worship is impossible, it's well over a thousand miles.  By the grace of God , He has made it that many that have their right church, but can't go to it, can learn through means of this great technology known as the internet. LOL   Grin

Glad to be here...I am anxiously awaiting true fellowship here with all of you.  Grace and Peace to you.....
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airIam2worship
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2006, 08:57:35 PM »


Hello, glad to be here.  My church for the last 33 years has been Berachah (means Blessings in Hebrew)  in Huston Tx..
I live in Az. so I listen to my new PT off the web, right along with the congregation.  Going to Tx. every day for learning and worship is impossible, it's well over a thousand miles.  By the grace of God , He has made it that many that have their right church, but can't go to it, can learn through means of this great technology known as the internet. LOL   Grin

Glad to be here...I am anxiously awaiting true fellowship here with all of you.  Grace and Peace to you.....


Amen lin the internet is a great tool. Too bad too many people use it for evil.
I'm glad you can attend your church via internet though.  Wink

your friend and sister in Christ,
Maria
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PS 91:2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust
Garden of Glory
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 12:25:31 AM »

Sounds interesting....Can you give us an example, say with a comparison of Isaiah 47 with Revelation 18?
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linssue55
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 12:53:40 AM »

Sounds interesting....Can you give us an example, say with a comparison of Isaiah 47 with Revelation 18?

Isaiah Chapter 47

{Isaiah looks down a couple hundred years and sees the fall of Babylon in Daniel's day}
1~~Come down, and sit in the dust,
O virgin daughter of Babylon {a woman captive},
sit on the ground . . .
there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldaeans . . .
  {she is now humiliated - no throne}
for you shall no more be called tender and voluptuous.

2~~Take the millstones, and grind meal {slave labor}.

Uncover your locks
  {a veil was a sign of nobility}.

Make bare the leg, uncover the thigh
  {striped naked}

pass over the rivers
  {carry burdens over the river naked}.

3~~Your nakedness shall be uncovered
  {idiom for rape},

yes, your shame shall be seen.

I will take vengeance . . .
and I will not 'see a man'
  {no courage . . . Chaldeans were now all cowards
  (only exception - the head of their State Department - the former
  captive Daniel)}.

4 As for our deliverer/redeemer,
Jehovah/God of the armies/hosts is His name,
the Holy One of Israel.

5~~Sit you silent, and you creep into darkness,
O daughter of the Chaldeans . . .
for you shall no more be called,
'The lady of kingdoms'
  {wiped out as a nation}.

6 I was angry/wroth with My people,
I have polluted My inheritance,
and given them into your hand.
  {the Jews were given over to the Chaldeans to administer the
   5th cycle of discipline but the Chaldeans abused this authority}

You did show them no mercy;
upon the ancient have you very heavily laid your yoke.

7~~And you said,
"I shall be a lady for ever . . .
  {meaning they thought the Chaldean Empire would last forever}
so that you did not store these things in your heart/'right lobe'
  {negative to doctrine - no GAP},
neither did remember the latter end of it.

8~~Therefore hear now this,
you who are given to pleasures {Operation Lusts},
who dwells carelessly . . .
you say in your heart/'right lobe',
"I am . . . and none else beside me.
  {PRIDE CLUSTER of sins - no need for God}

I shall not sit as a widow.
  {say men won't die in battle - widow also represents a loss of
  power}

Neither shall I know the loss of children
  {say the Army can protect the civilians without God's help - loss of
  children - represents abandonment - see Revelation 18:7}.

{Demon possession}
9 But these two things shall come to you in a moment in one day:
the loss of children and widowhood.

They shall come upon you in their perfection
for the multitude of your sorceries,
and for the great abundance of your enchantments.

{If Evil Permeates the Land - God will Destroy it}
10~~Because you have trusted {batach} in evil {ra`}.
  {batach - originally meant for a wrestler to do a body slam - here
  instead of 'slamming their problems' on the Lord they are trusting
  in evil - the ways of Satan that are not part of the Righteous
  Ways of God}.

You have said, No one sees me.

'Your wisdom and your knowledge' . . . have seduced you.
  {human viewpoint instead of divine viewpoint - creates self-
  righteousness instead of the Righteous Ways of God learned
  through the intake of His Word}

Therefore you have said in your 'right lobe'/heart,
"I . . .
  {expression of the arrogance of evil here - they believe only in their
  own thoughts and ideas}

and no one else except me
  {never believed in God or had believed but has turned from God now
  in reversionism} 11~~

Therefore shall disaster/evil come upon you
  {here is the 5th cycle of discipline on an evil nation}.

You shall not know from where it rises
and destruction shall fall upon you.

You shall not be able to overt it.

And destruction {5th cycle of discipline}
shall come upon you suddenly . . .
which you shall not understand
  {in ONE night Babylon falls - see Daniel 5 - they did NOT understand
  the handwriting on the wall!}.

12~~Stand now with your enchantments,
and with the multitude of your sorceries,
wherein you have labored from your youth.

If so be you shall be able to profit,
if so be you may prevail.
  {means 'explain THIS situation' . . . but they could not}

13~~You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels.
Let now the astrologers,
the stargazers,
the monthly prognosticators,
stand up, and save you from these things that shall come upon you.

{Note: See also Daniel 5:7-8}

14 Behold, they shall be as stubble.

The fire shall burn them.

They shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.

There shall not be a coal to warm at,
nor fire to sit before it.

15a Thus shall they be unto you with whom you have labored,
even your merchants,
from your youth.

They shall wander every one to his quarter.

15b~~None shall deliver you.

(cont w/Rev)
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linssue55
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2006, 12:55:23 AM »

Sounds interesting....Can you give us an example, say with a comparison of Isaiah 47 with Revelation 18?

Revelation  Chapter 18
1~~After these things {next in chronological order},
I saw another angel who had great authority {exousia}
  {RBT says this is the very powerful King of Arms of the
  Angelic College of Heralds}
descending from heaven;
and the earth was illuminated {photizo} by means of his glory
  {the elect angels apparently already have their equivalent
  of their resurrection bodies or rewards for eternity}.

{Note: This angel was apparently a great winner angel in the pre-historic (pre-human) angelic conflict. He also wears a winner's garment that glows so bright, it illuminates the earth. Bible doctrine is the Light of the world. This is a very mature, doctrine filled angel.}

{Note: The instrumental case is normally the case used to express 'means'. But when the means is accompanied with the implication of the origin, then the ablative is used - here the ablative of ek and that should be translated here 'by means of' his glory.}

2-3~~Then he {the king of arms} shouted/proclaimed {krazo}
with a powerful voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen, is Babylon the great
  {the destruction of the ecumenical religion of the Tribulation}.
In fact, it has become the habitation {katoiketerion}
of demons {daimon - fallen angels}
and is the prison {phulake} for every unclean spirit {pneuma}
  {means the demons cannot leave the geographical area even
  though all the humans are dead}.
And is the sentry post for every unclean
  {unclean is the term for certain birds that the Mosaic Law
  prohibited the Jews from eating}
and hated bird
  {hated birds are like vultures which are despised by most humans
  -the 'feast of the vultures' will be coming up in the next few
  chapters}. 3~~
Because all the nations have drunk
from the wine of the passion of her fornication
  {spiritual fornication - life outside the Divine Dynasphere and
  involvement in the cosmic system},
furthermore, the kings of the earth fornicated with her
  {aristocracy will lead the way - they lust for power and the religious
  system gives it to them},
also the merchants of the earth
became {exceedingly} rich from the power {cosmic Dynasphere}
of her sensuality/luxury/'sensuality and luxury'
  {those businessmen who will wear the mark of the beast will
  become extremely wealthy by playing footsy with this religion}."

{Note: RBT says there are two types of angels. Those who have been disembodied an are evil spirits and those who have bodies - such as those in the genetic attack in Genesis 6. The fallen angels of Genesis 6 are still in prison in Tartarus today and the Nephilim (half-angels, half- human) are in Torments.}

{Note: Phulake is the word for prison. RBT says that some demons are restricted to certain geographical areas. In the Old Testament, the idolaters would go to places like groves and set up idols and 'call' for their 'gods' to come. Apparently, human volition is a factor in the calling of demons to an area. Here we have the center of the false religion of the Tribulation in 'Babylon' (Rome). Rome will be nuked and all the humans killed, but the demons are left there unable to leave until God permits them.}

{Verses 4-5: Mandate of the King of Arms}
4-5~~Then I {John} heard another voice of the same kind {alla}
  {this time the Officer of Arms - 2nd in command to the King of Arms
  -system of Protocol in heaven is still being demonstrated he would
  also be a Seraph rank angel}
from heaven, saying,
"Come out from her {principal of separation from religion},
my people {meaning the command is to believers only},
in order that you might not share in her sins
  {two ways to do so: guilt by association and guilt by articipation},
and that you might not receive punishment from her plagues
  {means to share in her three types of divine discipline:
  1) Judgment by pain - 1st 5 bowl judgments - Revelation 16:1-11
  2) Judgment by death - 7th bowl judgment - Rev 16:17- 21
  3) Judgment by finesse judgement - above - Revelation 17:16-18,
  18:2-8}. 5~~
Because her sins have piled up as high as heaven
  {means that sins have reached the point of saturation - if God did
  not destroy the religion, the religion might wipe out the entire
  human race - so to protect humanity, this religion is removed by
  finesse judgment},
therefore, God has remembered her crimes/iniquities {adikema}."

{Verses 6-8: Imprecatory Prayer of Mature Believers of the Tribulation - Law of Retribution and Law of Double Punishment}
6-8~~"Give back {apodidomi} to her {ecumenical religion}
as she has given {apodidomi}
  {persecution and execution of believers - the law of retribution}.
In fact, pay back double {diploo}
- according to her deeds {judgment by pain plus judgment by death} - in the drinking cup {poterion}
which she has 'mixed' {kerannumi} . . .
mix for her . . . a double portion {diplous}. 7 ~~
To the degree that she glorifies herself
  {arrogance - motivational evil - upsets the evil political party},
and lived sensually {lasciviousness - functional evil},
to that same degree give her torture {basanismos}
  {this is an 'urgent request in prayer' to return her persecution with
  her own pain}
and grief/'divine judgment' {penthos}.
Because she thinks/says in her 'right lobe'/heart {organ of thought}, " {hoti - direct thought follows} I am enthroned a queen,
I am not a widow {see Isaiah 47:8 - a 'widow of this day lost her
  power and with a loss of her children also was abandoned - so this
  means religion losing it's influence and maybe even its 'children'/
  new converts},
consequently, I will never see grief/'divine judgment'. 8~~
Therefore/'because of this'
in one day her plagues
  {the three judgments against ecumenical religion}
will 'arrive on the scene {suddenly}' {heko} . . .
death {judgment by death - protects the rest of the human race},
both grief {self-induced misery}
and famine {economic disaster};
furthermore, she will be 'consumed by fire' { katakaio en pur}
  {utterly consumed by fire - a picture of a tactical nuclear attack
  on the religious headquarters - code name Babylon/Rome}
because Omnipotent/powerful {ischuros} . . .
{is} the Lord God Who judged her.

{Note: This is an imprecatory prayer. RBT says they are NOT authorized in the Church Age. Our principal is 'judge not'. But in the Tribulation under correct circumstances, imprecatory prayers are ok.}

{Note: Apodidomi is used twice in verse 6 - first in the 1st aorist and then next in the 2nd aorist tense. This is found only in the Koine type Greek and is very powerful.}

{Note: Erchomai is the normal Greek word for coming. Heko means to 'arrive on the scene' and implies a very quick surprise visit. The ecumenical religion feels secure and will be greatly surprised by the attack of the evil political power. This is the finesse judgment of God for one evil to take out another evil.}

{Verses 9-19: Reaction of Public Opinion}
{Reaction of the Rulers of the World}
9~~Then the rulers of the world {from verse 3 above}
who fornicated {spiritual fornication: apostasy}
and lived sensually with her, shall weep and mourn,
when they observe the smoke of her conflagration
  {purosis - here meaning destruction by tactical nuclear blast}.

{Note: Purosis means a fiery trial. Here RBT says it indicates a tactical nuclear attack on the center of the ecumenical religion - codenamed Babylon and probably centered in Rome.}

{Reaction of the Merchants and Transportation People of the World}
10~~And because of the fear {phobos} of her torment {basanismos}
  {fear of nuclear contamination from the blast in verse 9}
they stood at a distance, saying,
"Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}, Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}
to that great city - Babylon {Rome, 1 Peter 5:13} . . .
that powerful city;
because, in 'one hour'/'a short period of time'
  {mia hora - emphasizes suddenness of nuclear attack}
your judgement {krisis} has come.

{Note: Ouai is an onomatopoeic word (the sound describes the meaning - OOUUUUUUUIIIII). In Greek dramas, the actors would beat their chests and yell OUAI OUAI to describe the mourning in 'painful sounding words'.}

{Verses 11-16: Wailings of Merchants with the Fall of the Religion}
11-13~~ The merchants {emporos} of the earth {businessman}
both weep and mourn/'intensely agonize' {pentheo} over her
  {weeping over the loss of their source of great profits - religion}
because no one buys
  {agorazo - from the word for 'market' to 'buy in a market'}
their cargo/merchandise {gomos} any more:
  {destruction of ecumenical religion kills the world market
  for luxury items} 12~~
cargoes of gold, silver, precious gems and pearls;
fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth;
and every sort of 'citron wood'
  {N. Africa citrus tree prized for the colors in its grain -
  manufactured furniture from it};
the articles of every category of ivory, expensive wood,
bronze, iron, and marble; 13~~
cargoes of cinnamon, and spice, of incense,
myrrh and frankincense {perfume of the ancient world};
of wine and olive oil, and fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep,
horses and carriages {luxury ways of transportation};
both bodies and souls of mankind
  {slaves to serve the wealthy classes}."

(cont)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 12:57:37 AM by linssue55 » Logged
linssue55
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2006, 12:56:38 AM »

Sounds interesting....Can you give us an example, say with a comparison of Isaiah 47 with Revelation 18?


14~~In fact, the peak/zenith {opora}
  {idiom: literally: 'the time of the year when fruit ripens'}
of your soul's desire {emotional longing for luxury items}
has departed from you {lust replaced for desire for survival},
all things,
both luxuries/riches {liparos - sumptuous and delicate style of living}
and glamorous items {lampros - brilliant, shiny, magnificent things},
have vanished from you;
consequently, they will absolutely no longer find/discover { heurisko}
  {literally 'not never' - Greek double negative is stronger negative}
these things.

15~~The merchants of these things,
who became/'were made' rich by her,
shall stand 'at a distance'/'afar off '
because of the fear {phobos} of her torment {basanismos} . . .
  {contamination of the nuclear blast}
weeping and wailing.

16-17~~Furthermore, saying,
"Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}, Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}
to that great city {Babylon/Rome} . . .
who has been wearing fine linen, both purple {royal}
and scarlet {religious} {combination of church and state},
also decked/glittering with gold, and precious stones/gems,
and pearls {as we saw before - refers to the wealth, class and
  culture of this Religion}17~~
because 'in one hour'/'a short period of time'
  {hora - here RBT says the attack will take one hour - another
  indication that it was a quick nuclear attack}
such great wealth has been devastated."
Furthermore every ship captain,
and all who 'travel by ship'/'sail everywhere',
and all sailors - as many as make their living by the sea -
stood at a distance.

18~~When they see the smoke of her conflagration {purosis}
  {the destruction of the nuclear attack}
they keep screaming and saying,
"What . . . {city is} like this great city?"

19~~And they threw dust on their heads
  {ancient world custom of showing grief},
and they were screaming, both weeping and mourning, saying,
"Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}, Woe/OOUUUUUUUIIIII {ouai}
{is} that great city {Babylon/Rome} . . .
in which all who had ships at sea
were made rich by her extravagance
and because 'in one hour'/'in a short period of time'
she has been ruined."

{Verses 20-24: Response of Heaven}
20~~Celebrate over her {celebrate that God answered the
  imprecatory prayers of the Tribulation Martyrs in the
  destruction of ecumenical religious system},
O heaven {all believers living in heaven},
even saints/'set apart to God'
  {RBT says there are 3 categories here :
  Family of God (OT believers), Royal Family of God (Church Age
  believers), and Tribulational Martyrs}
both the apostles
 {used for pre-canon leaders of Church and writers of NT scriptures}
and the prophets {used for Jewish Age leaders and writers of OT
  scriptures - 3 categories of prophets:
  Unique prophet (Moses and later Jesus - a VERY unique prophet)
  Office of prophet (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Amos etc.)
  Gift of prophet (Daniel, David, Joshua, Samuel, Ezra, Nehemiah}
because God has pronounced/executed judgment
  {krima krino idiom: Literally 'God has judged judgment'}
on your behalf {idiom: Literally 'you on her}.

21~~ Then the unique powerful {ischuros} angel {King of Arms}
picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone
  {would be maybe 2 to 5 tons in weight}
and tossed it into the sea, saying, "In this manner
Babylon the great city {the headquarters of ecumenical religion}
will be thrown down with violence
and absolutely will not be discovered/found again/anymore.

{Judgment Waves Engulf - Entertainers, Skilled labor and Industry}
22~~Furthermore the music/sound of harpists and musicians,
flute players and trumpets,
will never be heard again in you {in Babylon}
  {sound apart from words is sometimes used by 'religion' to stimulate
  the emotion and distract the listener away from the study of the
  Word - Jungle beat in Primitive Africa, also in India screeching
  string music - music reflects the culture of the people}.
In fact no workman {taconites} of any skill
will ever be found in you again
  {when a country's skilled labor force is depleted, industry will
  eventually be destroyed}
also the sound of the mill {used for all industry}
will never be found in you again.

{Note: When you have skilled labor, you have good industry. When you have good industry you prosper and the hard workers demand entertainment. So, the entertainers rise up. All three are related and when religion here falls, it takes the prosperity that was tied to it and there is no time for leisure, only survival.}

{Judgment Waves Next Destroys: Utilities and Normal Social and Sexual Activities}
23~~Furthermore the light {phos} of the lamp {luchnos}
will never shine on you again
  {the destruction of the utility system - and with it goes the
  functioning of the great cities, they will also fall into decline}.
In fact, the voice of the groom
and the bride will never be heard in you again
  {means the normal wonderful activities of life will fall
  - social life and sexual life}.
"{hoti - direct discourse from the King of Arms}
Your merchants were 'great successful men of commerce'
  {megistanes - Dorian Greek word meaning successful in your field of
  endeavor}, of the earth."
"{hoti} By means of your 'pharmakeia'/addiction
  {pharmakeia - demonism related
  to idolatry, drug abuse, cosmic poisoning of the mind}
all the nations of the world were deceived."

{Inherent Criminality of Religion}
24~~In fact the blood of the prophets
  {martyring of the communicators of doctrine in the Tribulation},
and saints/'set-apart to God ones'
  {martyring of other believers of the Tribulation},
was discovered in her {the ecumenical religious system}
and all who have been 'slain by great violence' {sphazo} on the earth {terrorists of the entire earthly population}.

{Note: Remember Christianity is NOT a religion but a relationship with God based on the work of the Son on the Cross. All religion has man in one form or another working, working, working for his salvation. God and His Word is de-emphasized and the nobility of man is emphasized incorrectly. Salvation is a gift from God, not of works, lest any man should boast . . .}
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Garden of Glory
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2006, 08:30:55 PM »

Please explain this(I assume you are cutting and pasting from a lesson study; we have no clue what some of these terms may mean):

"RBT says this is the very powerful King of Arms of the Angelic College of Heralds"

You often refer to "RBT"; please let us know who this is, if you will.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 08:33:05 PM by Garden of Glory » Logged
linssue55
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2006, 12:22:59 AM »

Please explain this(I assume you are cutting and pasting from a lesson study; we have no clue what some of these terms may mean):

"RBT says this is the very powerful King of Arms of the Angelic College of Heralds"

You often refer to "RBT"; please let us know who this is, if you will.

Yes, these are the lessons (exegeted by RBT) that many of us (congregation) have accumulated through out the decades from his lessons to us,(we always took notes)  and they are on the web for our easy access.  We ( congregation) all exegete, use isosgogics and catergories (ICE).  Isosgogics and exegetics are very old terms in christianity (it's just many PT no longer use them because it take YEARS of college, and thousands upon thousands of hours of study and teach, study and teach to the congregation)  the catagories is a unique way our pastor put our teachings from the bible in a type of catigorical frame of reference (index) that has become unique to those under this type of teaching.  Because of his unique teachings there are now dozens of pastors (all ordained by RBT) that now teach this way (many on the web).

Many of what you saw in the verses (are side notes, as a frame of reference to help clarify the verses) and words from the  original languages of the Koine or Hebrew ie: OT or NT.

Here is my pastor for over 30 years......well used to be, he has Alzhiemers now, and I am now under one of his ordained pastors that teaches exactly the same way.


http://www.rbthieme.org/r_b_.htm
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2006, 12:01:46 PM »

Hi linssue55,

I kind of like this method of teaching the Bible. It really gets into the meat of it and can help one to understand the Bible in depth. As you said it is a very difficult and time consumming method requiring the teacher to be highly skilled and learned. I was wondering though how this is handled with those that are not ready for meat but are still on the milk of the word?

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
linssue55
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 10:06:45 AM »

Hi linssue55,

I kind of like this method of teaching the Bible. It really gets into the meat of it and can help one to understand the Bible in depth. As you said it is a very difficult and time consumming method requiring the teacher to be highly skilled and learned. I was wondering though how this is handled with those that are not ready for meat but are still on the milk of the word?





 RBT has tapes and cd's and dvd's that you can get from the church, FREE of charge that starts from the basics.  The baby in christ starts with the basics and works their way through (there is an order of growth stated) from baby, to adolense, to adult, to more mature, to mature, to super grace, then surpassing grace.  There is a PDF file that has HUNDREDS of catagories of scripture (THOUSANDS of hours) on RBT site that can be ordered on tapes.  This is where the baby can start.
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2006, 03:20:11 PM »

I think it is great to ensure that your study also involves looking into the ancient languages.  But I have a question are you learning the language as well or only the meaning of some of the words?

I mean that would be a very daunting task to have to learn the languages as well.  Otherwise you are reading what it is that someone else says the translations mean.  I am all for going back to study the original words and do it often in my study.  Stong's is good for that as well as checking online for lexicons and such.

Some of the reason's I asks is that I get leary of the "all in one" type of study material aspect of things.  When you rely on one person to do the translating and defining then you can run into an easy avenue for cultism.  The Bible tells us that we are to go into study with prayer and a mind for God.  And if everything is spilled out for you in one quick text then it can be more difficult to do your own research.  And this being primarily from what appears to be one person I get even further cautious. 

Take a look at your notes on Isaiah 47.  See specifically vs 3.  Your notes by RBT would state the phrase "Your nakedness shall be uncovered" is an idiom for rape.  Rape being having carnal relations with a person against their will.  (BEP I hope that was child safe enough Wink  ).  I think if you read the verses before and after this it is actually implying that Babylon had done this to themselves.  It was more that Babylon had become unclean and un-virgin like of it's own accord.  There was more shame in that than there would be if Babylon was raped.

Now that is not a big one to me.  But shows a possible issue that to me could be reflected further down the line.

But take a look down at verse 6.  The notes state that "the Jews were given over to the Chaldeans to administer the 5th cycle of discipline but the Chaldeans abused this authority"
I was trying to figure out where the 5th cycle of discipline came in.  Also the Jews were slaves to the Chaldeans so they would not have put the Jews in any position other than that of a slave.  The king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, did call fourth some of the youth of the Jews, royal blood.  To train up in the ways of the Babylonians.  Daniel and others were the select group.  And the story of Daniel then unfolds. 

One that threw me was verse 10. RBT did get the word correct it was batach.  Strongs number 0982 lexicon ID XTB.  But no where in any of the definitions of the word is it in reference to a wrestler or doing a body slam.  Several translations of the Bible state the first phrase of this verse to state something as "trusted in your wickedness".  This goes hand in hand with the second portion of this verse that imply's they are trusting in themselves and not putting their trust in God.

Now I am not trying to state that Mr. Thieme is wrong, evil, or anything of that nature.  But what I am saying is that you should evaluate every piece of literature about the Bible with the knowledge that it is coming from man and not God.  NO matter how Godly the person may appear to be when you take their statements and hold them to the same standard as the Bible itself then you can be asking for trouble.  I do not even read any of Billy Graham's work unless I read it in reflection of what the Bible says.  And if he is translating something I seek sources for that translation to confirm.  I cannot read Greek nor Hebrew as a language.  I can read the words but that is not knowing the language.  So I have batach in many translators to ensure I have the concensus before accepting it as translated that way.

Other than things like that I think it is great to be able to get expanded notes upon a single glance.  But do not toss out your Strongs or Lexicon yet.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry
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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
linssue55
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2006, 06:50:53 PM »

I think it is great to ensure that your study also involves looking into the ancient languages.  But I have a question are you learning the language as well or only the meaning of some of the words?

I mean that would be a very daunting task to have to learn the languages as well.  Otherwise you are reading what it is that someone else says the translations mean.  I am all for going back to study the original words and do it often in my study.  Stong's is good for that as well as checking online for lexicons and such.

Some of the reason's I asks is that I get leary of the "all in one" type of study material aspect of things.  When you rely on one person to do the translating and defining then you can run into an easy avenue for cultism.  The Bible tells us that we are to go into study with prayer and a mind for God.  And if everything is spilled out for you in one quick text then it can be more difficult to do your own research.  And this being primarily from what appears to be one person I get even further cautious. 

Take a look at your notes on Isaiah 47.  See specifically vs 3.  Your notes by RBT would state the phrase "Your nakedness shall be uncovered" is an idiom for rape.  Rape being having carnal relations with a person against their will.  (BEP I hope that was child safe enough Wink  ).  I think if you read the verses before and after this it is actually implying that Babylon had done this to themselves.  It was more that Babylon had become unclean and un-virgin like of it's own accord.  There was more shame in that than there would be if Babylon was raped.

Now that is not a big one to me.  But shows a possible issue that to me could be reflected further down the line.

But take a look down at verse 6.  The notes state that "the Jews were given over to the Chaldeans to administer the 5th cycle of discipline but the Chaldeans abused this authority"
I was trying to figure out where the 5th cycle of discipline came in.  Also the Jews were slaves to the Chaldeans so they would not have put the Jews in any position other than that of a slave.  The king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, did call fourth some of the youth of the Jews, royal blood.  To train up in the ways of the Babylonians.  Daniel and others were the select group.  And the story of Daniel then unfolds. 

One that threw me was verse 10. RBT did get the word correct it was batach.  Strongs number 0982 lexicon ID XTB.  But no where in any of the definitions of the word is it in reference to a wrestler or doing a body slam.  Several translations of the Bible state the first phrase of this verse to state something as "trusted in your wickedness".  This goes hand in hand with the second portion of this verse that imply's they are trusting in themselves and not putting their trust in God.

Now I am not trying to state that Mr. Thieme is wrong, evil, or anything of that nature.  But what I am saying is that you should evaluate every piece of literature about the Bible with the knowledge that it is coming from man and not God.  NO matter how Godly the person may appear to be when you take their statements and hold them to the same standard as the Bible itself then you can be asking for trouble.  I do not even read any of Billy Graham's work unless I read it in reflection of what the Bible says.  And if he is translating something I seek sources for that translation to confirm.  I cannot read Greek nor Hebrew as a language.  I can read the words but that is not knowing the language.  So I have batach in many translators to ensure I have the concensus before accepting it as translated that way.

Other than things like that I think it is great to be able to get expanded notes upon a single glance.  But do not toss out your Strongs or Lexicon yet.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

There have been many people that have stated the same as you (doubt), and it only has to do with the lack of understanding the teachings of ICE.  The first 10 years that I started listening to RBT, I gathered ALL the books needed to follow him word for word, from the ancient languages using Isogogics and Exegetics.  He was right on in every sense.  It is just not going to strongs and finding it in there, so much more involved then that.  There are tenses, verbs, class conditions, fixes, imperatives, moods, adjectives etc. etc..  Also consider the historical, geographical, economic, political, & cultural elements of the time period in which the Scriptures were written. An accurate interpretation of the Word of God without such due consideration is impossible.  There is so much to learn it would be impossible for me to tell you the why's and wherefores of ICE.

I am, and have been a very untrusting person most of my life, so when I started with this in 74' I did not trust him or ANY pastor.  So I followed him verses by verse, pre-cept upon pre-cept, line upon line.  I have heard people talk like you about this type of teaching for decades now, but UNTIL they listen and learn even a little they are judging with nothing to back up their claim.  Evil?  Quite the opposite.  I have never learned anything so true, so real, so GOD as I have this.  So what I tell people when they have these questions (for I stopped trying to prove to them along time ago) it is up to them from their own free will to give God a hearing and let God the Holy Spirit take them from there in believing or not believing the ICE teachings. So here is a link for you IF you wish to listen, on just a very small sample of how he teaches this ICE, and how incrediibaly deep he goes into the verse.  It is "How to get (re-gain) the Filling of the Spirit." when we are carnel. 

I gave up many years ago like I said, to GET people to believe or even understand, it is way to tiring and only God the holy Spirit can turn this doctrinal knowledge into epi-gnosis doctrine for the believer.  For I cannot.  I do therefore wish you would listen to this only about 35 min. long.  It is up to you.  But I have been learning this for over 30 years and I will never learn the word any other way, for the truth I have never understood so clearly.

http://www.rbthieme.org/asx/840_0193.asx

The 5 cycles of Discipline are found in 'Bible Study' on this forum.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:00:00 PM by linssue55 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2006, 02:34:19 PM »

linssue55

Let me first state something clearly.  I have no doubt.  An apprehension of trust in people is because of firm knowledge that people are just that.  I trust in Jesus and Jesus alone.  I trust my wife as well.  But I can say no where near as much as I do Christ. (no offense dear).  All others have varying degrees of trust.  And I have no doubt that all humans can, have, and will sin.  So there is but one thing I give my reliance on what God has to say.  And that is the Bible itself.

I also know that everything is to be put into context.  There is value in many different areas of the Bible.  Every verse may have historical relevance, as well as doctrinal relevance.  One of the most amazing things of the Bible itself is that anyone with prayer and the Holy Spirit as their guide can learn all that there is to know just from the Bible.  It is both a historical work as far as events, you can learn the attitude of people at the time, economics of the region, and pretty much anything you want.  It may not be as nicely organized as a history book would be in those cases but you can understand if you read and pray what the situation was.  For example at the time of Christ there was a mafia type of thing going on.  The soldiers were extorting money from the people as a sort of protection scam.  Luke 3:14 "Some soldiers were questioning him, saying 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And he said to them 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages' "  John the Baptist would not have told them not to do these things if that was for the future to prevent it from happening.  But because it was already going on and to stop it from happening instead.  This is an example of something that is not stand out and tell you what was going on.  But if you read it you can see that this was obviously an issue and happened quite a bit.  If it was just one man John would not have said it to all.  But there were many there and he said those words to all of them.  So you can find what you absolutely need in the Bible.

Now as I said earlier it is always good to have reference material available.  Because it is sometimes easier to read something like a history book and have it confirmed by the Bible.  Just because of some of the more elusive remarks about the society that are there.  There is far more secular writings that describe the general society and history of the region at the time.  But it is covered in the Bible with careful reading.

And it is not a matter of the wheres and whys of ICE.  I only stress caution when one MAN is attempting to provide ALL the answers.  And anytime you compare scripture to scripture with prayer and trust in Jesus, you will never go wrong.

As far as many people stating same as me.  Well let me ask you this.  If many people state a different interpretation of a word or phrase from the same sources (ancient languages and such) than the one man, Mr. Thieme, then who would you think has the correct interpretation of the word?

Now let me address the link you posted, you can definitely tell that RBT was former military.  Operation Bathsheba, 1st Battalion, etc.  Kinda funny sounding at times, but being former military I understand it Smiley

And again let me state I am not against RBT or saying he is a cult leader or anything of that nature.  However I would always advise a strong caution towards a reliance on a man, any man for the learning of God's word.  God tells us in the Bible that if we seek an answer to ask and it will be given.  And that we should go to study in prayer seeking answers.  God would not have provided us His word if we could not understand it.  And I believe that God will preserve His word in the languages He created at the tower.  So that all the world may come to know Him.  When you state that you cannot learn the real meaning of the word unless you read it in the orignal Hebrew or Greek then you also sound very close to Muslim who believe you cannot get the meaning of Muhammed unless you read it in the original language as well.  I only urge a continued check of what a preacher, teacher, or anyone says of the Word with prayer and other sources as well. 

As far as the sermon you posted I would recommend if anyone else listen to it to listen to the entire thing.  He says some things at the beginning that unless you either listen to the sermon completely or have heard him preach before you may begin to really wonder.  ie he almost makes it sound like you can lose your salvation at the beginning, just because of the terms he uses, but towards the end he wraps things up and re-iterates that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost.  But again you can definitely tell he is former military Smiley

Linssue again I am not attempting to bash him or you or anyone.  I just advise that people never get to comfortable accepting the word of just one person.  Look at EB White.  Her "interpretations" and stories of the Bible.  Even Joseph Smith.  God will preserve His word so if someone says something that sounds really intellectual but just does not quite "jive" with what you think...go find other sources.  Then I also begin to look more critically at what else has been said as well as will be said.  Ask question and if not a satisfactory answer.  Then maybe a change in church or similar.  To all who read this God will let you know when you are reading a verse correctly or when you are not.  If you misinterpret something God will bring to light the verse(s) you need to properly correct that mistake.  But you must go at it with prayer and a heart to learn. 

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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