Baptism

[RKJ]

Accepting is salvation.  Baptism is professing the acceptance of that salvation brought to us by grace.
Baptism definitely is no means to salvation.  Who would not profess to the world through this act/ritual - to begin with?

In my opinion (also) infant baptism is not biblical.  Baptism follows salvation.  Beginning from John the Baptist, people repented, confessed and then took baptism.  An infant is in no position to do this.  Accepting Jesus is a vary conscious decision.

I know it is a oft debated topic.  I was babpized when i was an infant.  After accepting Jesus Christ, there was not anyone to suggest baptism to me.  But, when the right time came, I did it without tarrying.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi RKJ,

Welcome to Christians Unite forums. I must say Amen to your post. The Bible is quite clear on this subject. Infants have no need for baptism. God will not reject them even if something terrible does happen to them and they have not been baptized. There is much in the Bible on that also.

[Ruth]

AH!!  I spent forty minutes typing up a reply, and when I posted, it got lost.  How frustrating.

Here's my question for all those who say we must accept salvation:  What about people who have never heard the Word of God?  Are they then saved by their works? 

I believe salvation is purely a gift from God.  That is Christ's work:  salvation.  Accepting or choosing anything is a work.  To say we're saved by choosing it seems like works righteousness.  I believe that God saves us through the power of His death and resurrection, we can't do anything on our own, we comply with what He does to us and for us.  Perhaps we have a part in our sanctification, but not in our justification.

Regarding baptism, why don't infants NEED it?  Where in the Bible does it say babies automatically go to heaven?  I'm not saying anything either way, but I want your Scriptural proof for this.

In Acts, a jailer is baptized along with his whole family.  Couldn't that have included children?  And Jesus commands us to baptize all nations.  He does not install an age-limit.

More verses about baptism later, I'm at work

One more question, which will spark more discussion.  If we need to move it to another thread, then so be it.  What is the standard Evangelical/Protestant view of Holy Communion?

[Shammu]

Obviously, it is impossible for infants to place their faith in Christ or publicly declare their faith. The Bible does not record a single infant being baptized.

Romans 6:3-4 Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  4 We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. Even if a baby is dedicated to the Lord, when he grows up he will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

[Ruth]

And where does this repentance come from?

Acts 11:16-18 - "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Notice God granted it to them.

Is anybody actually reading what I'm posting? 

Can anybody answer my "hypothetical person" question? 

My point about baptism is that there IS no age limit set in the Bible.  And I want to know why you all think that children are exempt from the problem of sin, etc.  I'm coming from an original sin background. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Where in the Bible does it say babies automatically go to heaven?

Following is a post that I have made on this subject before giving some verses that will answer this question for you. There are many more verses that cover it but htis should be sufficient. As we see a baby in the womb cannot be baptised in water.



2Sa 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

We are told that God does not punish a child before they reach an age at which they would have knowledge between good and evil.


Deu 1:39  Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

We are also told that God will not refuse children.

Mar 10:14  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

This is another reason that we know that it is God's grace that saves us and not that of works, because even children that have not had a chance to do any kind of works are received by Him:

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[Ruth]

I appreciate the fact that you quoted right from Romans 9, a section of the Bible devoted to the topic of election.  I commend you to Romans 9:16 - "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."  THAT is my point on salvation.  Read chapters 9-11. 

The problem with your "all children go to heaven" model is simply when does that rule stop applying?  From the years 7-12 we're left in some vague, amorphous blob where they can either reject or accept God, or they go straight to heaven. 

I'm not saying children DON'T go to heaven.  I'm saying there no possible way we can judge when a child is not a child, and it's silly to make up arbitrary rules.  You have to make up these rules because a person has to accept salvation before he/she gets into heaven.  Also, what about mentally deficient people who cannot think or reason?  What if they are full-grown adults?  They are not children?  How can they be saved?  They cannot accept Jesus, but they are not children. I say a person can only "accept" what is put in them by God and therefore they're not accepting it, it's just there.  God takes us and makes us his.  Don't ask me why or how exactly it happens.  It happens on account of his divine mercy and grace and his will that all men may be saved. 


I'm from a tradition that teaches original sin, the inherent naturally sinful state of all people at all times and places:

Ephesians 2:1-3 - "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 5:19 - "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
(This verse compares Jesus to Adam, Jesus being the "second Adam" of sorts.  Just as we had no choice in the matter of becoming sinful, we have no choice in the matter when it comes to salvation)

And regarding infant baptism:  "Scholars from the traditions that practice infant baptism contend that indirect evidence for baptizing children exists within the New Testament. They cite occasions from the Book of Acts when whole households were baptized, in the words "The promise is for you and for your children."  (wikipedia)

Once again, we must be "born again," correct? (although my theology prof would argue that in Greek it actually says 'begotten from above')  How much did we have to do with our first birth?  Not a thing.  How much, then do we have to do with our second birth?

Is accepting something a work?

What about the "hypothetical person" on an island who has never heard about Jesus or has no idea about the Bible, etc...And he's a full grown male.  How can he accept this?
   
And you are right that Jesus did not refuse children.  But how did they get to Jesus?  Did they get there on their own?  No.  They had someone else bring them.  And then Jesus says that we must have faith like a child...a child who cannot reason anything out or understand anything or accept Him.  In other words, we are to have faith as a person who cannot choose Christ.  Oooh boy...

[Soldier4Christ]

I have already shown you what the Bible has to say on the subject. Baptized or not children that have reached the age of accountablility will go to heaven. Those that are mentally handicapped to the point of not knowing right from wrong and not being able to make a decision would be as a child. I also agreed with you that a person must be called of God however there are those that have been called that have turned away and refuse to take that step towards Him. Your posts are starting to just go in circles on these subjects. You either accept the whole word of God or not. That is alol there can be said about it. Baptism still has nothing to do with it.

[Ruth]

The age of accountability is not Scriptural.  Perhaps in the Old Testament there is a reference to who would get to go into Canaan and children could not choose wrong or right and therefore got in, but that does not mean that there is this magical point in a child's life where they pass from childhood to the age of accountability and must then choose.  Just because children cannot choose good or evil, it does not mean they aren't born sinful.  The Bible does not provide nearly enough evidence to formulate a doctrine on an age of accountability.  Therefore I do not understand why it is being taught in any church. 

If I am going in circles, it's because all my points lead back to each other, and are centered around Scripture.  Any "accepting" or "choosing" that goes on in the New Testament is on account of God, not by human will or exertion, as Romans says. 

I think Jesus' words on children are the most reliable.  He tells full-grown adults they must have faith as a little children.  A little child, who according to you (and me), can't create faith.  Jesus' actions towards children are also reliable.  He receives those who are brought to Him, who could not come on their own accord, who could not accept Him.  And we must have faith like them -- we who cannot accept Him, who lack the capacity to understand Him, who can only trust Him and love Him as He gives us the power to do.  The power to become children of God. 

I do believe we can reject God's grace and mercy.  I don't believe there is anything we can do to accept it or choose it or bring it to ourselves.  Those are works.  And all good protestants (and Lutherans, for that matter) know that we are not saved by works.  God's grace is sufficient. 

[Soldier4Christ]

it's because all my points lead back to each other

On the contrary. It is the same point repeated over and again.

Now I am going to risk repeating myself. When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection. We believe in Him and the works that He did for us. It is through faith in Him and His works that saves and nothing that we ourselves have done or will do. Some would say that having faith would be considered works yet the Bible is clear in this aspect that it is through faith that we are saved.

I am glad that I do not believe as you do, that I believe that God being a mreciful God would accept a child of mine lost at the age of 2 yrs not being baptized nor old enough to know who Jesus is into heaven.

With that said I will leave you to your confusion and lack of understanding that you have so clearly displayed. In other words I am finished with this conversation. The rest from here is between you and God.

[Ruth]

I'd like to make myself clear:  I never said I believe children that die are going to hell or that Jesus will not accept them.  My point is that your doctrine of age of accountability lies on a shaky ground at best.  We are promised no such thing in Scripture.  Judging based on the merciful nature of God, it's quite possible that children go to be with Jesus, but not because they didn't have the capacity to make a certain decision, rather because God is loving, merciful, and wise.  I just don't think that there's much of a difference between children and adults.  We're all sinful, we're all in need of God's grace, what difference does age make to an eternal God?  I'm going with Jesus on this one:  faith like a child.  Faith that some unfortunately say does not exist because they can't choose to have it.  Jesus seems to think children can have faith.  I'm going with Him. 

Luke 10:21 - "In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes Father, for such was your gracious will."

Luke 18:17 - "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
(How do children receive the kingdom?  Well, they sure don't understand it.  They can't think it out and make a logical decision for themselves. Dare I suggest that God has something to do with their salvation and the faith and their trust?)
 
There is a difference between acknowledging and accepting.  You can acknowledge something without accepting it, trusting it, or believing in it. 

God has chosen us before the foundations of the world!  He loves us and had brought us into His family through the blood of Christ, by His own merit.  There is nothing we can do to earn this salvation, it is ours because God has said it's so.   I too am done here.   I'm not going to resort to saying you're "confused" and you "lack understanding" and I'm not going to rejoice in the fact that we don't agree and you don't believe what I believe, but I will thank you for talking with me.  It challenged me and caused me to get into the Word to reaffirm my position.  Grace and peace to you. 

[RKJ]

There is a difference between acknowledging and accepting.  You can acknowledge something without accepting it, trusting it, or believing in it. 

There you go! One has to do all this with all his heart and soul.  Otherwise, life is gonna be shaky...all the time (ie if one only acknowledges it and calls oneself saved).

Not attempting to revive the discussion....

[Ruth]

*I was merely highlighting an inconsistency.  The two words cannot be used in the same context when discussion salvation.  I'd be more prone to acknowledging the fact that I'm saved rather than "accepting" that salvation.  Maybe it's a petty matter of words, but words are tricky in theological discussions.*

FIN

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen RKJ, and I agree with Ruth on that statement. You are completely correct. We must acknowledge theat Jesus is Lord and believe that He died on the cross for us. (to have knowledge of). We must repent of our sins. We must receive Him into our hearts.

No problem in reviving the conversation if you wish to carry on with it.


Luk 1:77  To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,


Act 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Joh 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive[/b[ me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


receive = 1. to permit to enter : ADMIT b : WELCOME, GREET 2. to accept

[Ruth]

From where is the power coming to receive Christ?  From Him, would be my answer.  Therefore you're still not doing anything for your salvation. 

You could say a vessel is receiving water when it is poured into it, but is the vessel doing anything?  No, it is the one who is pouring. 

If you truly believe you can accept Christ by your own decision and will, somehow that puts you a step above all the other sinners in the world.  You'e got some sort of advantage that they don't.  Why is it that you can see what they can't?