Acts 2:38 Baptism in Jesus Name

[Soldier4Christ]

I see that you are still at it, Satisfied MInd.

If water baptism is a requirement for salvation then Jesus Christ must have lied to the theif on the cross next to him. We know that Jesus could not lie so all of your interpretations of these verses you have mentioned could not and is not right. And that is only one of many examples.

[Shammu]

It also does not say we must repent.  Would you deny that repentance is necessary for salvation?  It does not mention confessing, is that too unnecessary?  You cannot pick and choose what fits your idea or agenda.

The fact is there are many verses that mention one thing, but not the other. Why do some people follow one verse yet ignore another?  I submit  that is "taking away" from the Word as warned against in the book of  Revelation.  We must use the NT as a whole, not pick and choose what we want to do. 

We must believe(Mark 16:16), Repent(Acts 2:38), Confess(Romans 10:9-10), Be baptized(Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16) and be Faithful until death(Rev. 2:10)

Many say that baptism is a "work" that it is something we "do" therefore is unnecessary.  Aren't believing and repenting something we "do"?  Isn't confessing Jesus' name before men something we "do"?   

As to the idea that salvation occurs before baptism, I can find nowhere in scripture that indicates that this is so.  Acts 2:38, clearly shows it is necessary "for"  or "unto" the remission of sins by the use of the greek preposition "eis". The construction of the compound verbs—“repent and be baptized”—connected with the prepositional phrase—“for the forgiveness of sins”—demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins.” And why is that?

Because it would equally affirm that one is required to repent “because of” the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

The translation of the Greek word  EIC  is "because of" in this verse due to the greater context of Scripture.

I've discovered that there are a number of different baptisms (Hebrews 6:1,2), such as the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16, Acts 11:16 I Corinthians 12:13 & others), the baptism of Moses (I Corinthians 10:2), the baptism of John (Luke 20:4, Acts 18:25, 19:3 & others).

You can look at numerous other passages where belief is the only reqirement for salvation.

Luke 8:12 Those along the traveled road are the people who have heard; then the devil comes and carries away the message out of their hearts, that they may not believe (acknowledge Me as their Savior and devote themselves to Me) and be saved [here and hereafter].

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name

John 3:15-18 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!  16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.  17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.  18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

John 3:36 And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

John 5:24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.

John 6:35 Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).

John 6:40 For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

John 6:47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.

Paul tells us that Jesus didn't call him to baptize (is Paul negating the Great Commission here? I think not!) but to preach. And Paul says he only baptized a few people. And thank goodness for that, he says, because otherwise people might be saying they were baptized in the name of Paul. The Great Commission is in Matthew 28:19,20 records Jesus' words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . ." This certainly doesn't say we need to be baptized to be saved. And why did Paul say he wasn't called to baptize? It must be because the church as a whole is called to baptize, not us as individuals. How could a wheelchair-bound person baptize someone? Yet we have many Christians who are in wheelchairs. And we have many Christians who are invalids as well. Are they disobeying Jesus' command to baptize? I don't think so. Jesus Himself baptized none. And then the kicker . . . why would Paul leave 99% of his converts half-saved, or, according to some, not saved at all? If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then the majority of people Paul preached to never entered the kingdom of heaven, because, as Paul says himself, he only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Paul, in his zealousnous for preaching the gospel, and in his obsession for detail, would not leave so many people unsaved.

[Soldier4Christ]

As to the idea that salvation occurs before baptism, I can find nowhere in scripture that indicates that this is so.

Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

These individuals were saved and received the Holy Ghost before baptism in water.

[Satisfied MInd]

I see that you are still at it, Satisfied MInd.

If water baptism is a requirement for salvation then Jesus Christ must have lied to the theif on the cross next to him. We know that Jesus could not lie so all of your interpretations of these verses you have mentioned could not and is not right. And that is only one of many examples.

As Jesus had not died yet, they were still under the Old Covenant. Baptism was not a requirement of the Old Law.

[Satisfied MInd]

The translation of the Greek word  EIC  is "because of" in this verse due to the greater context of Scripture.

I've discovered that there are a number of different baptisms (Hebrews 6:1,2), such as the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16, Acts 11:16 I Corinthians 12:13 & others), the baptism of Moses (I Corinthians 10:2), the baptism of John (Luke 20:4, Acts 18:25, 19:3 & others).

You can look at numerous other passages where belief is the only reqirement for salvation.

Luke 8:12 Those along the traveled road are the people who have heard; then the devil comes and carries away the message out of their hearts, that they may not believe (acknowledge Me as their Savior and devote themselves to Me) and be saved [here and hereafter].

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name

John 3:15-18 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!  16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.  17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.  18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

John 3:36 And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

John 5:24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.

John 6:35 Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).

John 6:40 For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

John 6:47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.

Paul tells us that Jesus didn't call him to baptize (is Paul negating the Great Commission here? I think not!) but to preach. And Paul says he only baptized a few people. And thank goodness for that, he says, because otherwise people might be saying they were baptized in the name of Paul. The Great Commission is in Matthew 28:19,20 records Jesus' words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . ." This certainly doesn't say we need to be baptized to be saved. And why did Paul say he wasn't called to baptize? It must be because the church as a whole is called to baptize, not us as individuals. How could a wheelchair-bound person baptize someone? Yet we have many Christians who are in wheelchairs. And we have many Christians who are invalids as well. Are they disobeying Jesus' command to baptize? I don't think so. Jesus Himself baptized none. And then the kicker . . . why would Paul leave 99% of his converts half-saved, or, according to some, not saved at all? If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then the majority of people Paul preached to never entered the kingdom of heaven, because, as Paul says himself, he only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Paul, in his zealousnous for preaching the gospel, and in his obsession for detail, would not leave so many people unsaved.

The greek word "eis" does not mean "because of" .  The word "eis" is used over 1700 times in the NT, It is always "forward looking" never "backward looking." In Matthew 26:28 there is an identical construction of eis, conjoined with the terms “forgiveness of sins,” just as in Acts 2:38.

In the Matthew text, as he institutes the communion supper, Jesus said: ”. . . this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.” Even the renowned Baptist scholar, A.T. Robertson, who attempted to twist Acts 2:38 into conformity with his personal theological agenda, was forced to surrender his position when discussing Matthew 26:28.

Of the controversial phrase he stated: “The purpose of the shedding of his blood of the New Covenant was precisely to remove (forgive) sins” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman, 1930, Vol. I, p. 210; emp. WJ).

Also over 23  commonly used, different translations translate the term "eis" as unto or for the remission of sins. 

One does not have to baptize someone to be saved.  I don't believe I ever said that in any of my posts. Just because Paul did not baptize them doesn't mean that they were not baptized.


There is only one baptism
Ephesians 4:5 ASV
(5)  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[Satisfied MInd]

Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

These individuals were saved and received the Holy Ghost before baptism in water.

As Peter began to detail the  points of the gospel to Cornelius, the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon this Gentile and his household. This was powerful evidence of the fact that God wanted all men to be partakers of Heaven’s blessings.

Peter therefore asked: “Can any man forbid water that these should not be immersed?” Not a solitary objection was raised. And so the Gentile centurion was commanded to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

It is very important to understand that the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” as that phenomenon was initiated both in Acts 2 and 10, was not a condition for anyone’s personal salvation. It was a miraculous authentication of divinely orchestrated events – unique to those occasions. It is thus not being implemented today as a means to any person’s conversion.

[Soldier4Christ]

Although it was not called baptism it was still there in the Old Testament. and again in the New Testament before Jesus died on the cross:

Exo 30:20  When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

Exo 40:12  And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

Exo 40:30  And he set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and put water there, to wash withal.


Mar 1:4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Joh 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.


Mar 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.


Mar 1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Satisfied MInd, I strongly suggest that you go back to your Bible and stucy it instead of listening to the doctrines of men. Baptism is not a requirement of salvation. As I pointed out above Salvation occurs prior to any such works. Works are not a requirement of salvation but the fruits of salvation. Those that are truly saved will desire to do good works because of their love of God, following what God has told them to do.


People who insist on baptism as a part of salvation usually quote Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." They say that if we are not "baptized . . . for the remission of sins" we cannot be forgiven.

Notice the key word repent. The basic condition is for us to agree with God that our sin is a violation of His moral law and to turn in faith to Jesus Christ. In addition, the preposition for [eis] in the phrase "for the remission of sins" does not mean "in order to [be forgiven]." Its basic meaning is "with a view toward" or "in relation to." When Jesus said the people of Nineveh "repented at [eis] the preaching of Jonah" (Lk. 11:32), He was saying they repented "with a view toward" or "in connection with" Jonah's message.

In Acts 2, therefore, Peter was telling the men of Jerusalem to repent and let themselves be baptized "with a view toward" the remission of sins. Their baptism was to be an evidence of their repentance and forgiveness, not a condition for it.

In addition, the following factors show that water baptism is not essential to salvation:

    * Abraham was forgiven before he was circumcised, apart from any rite or ceremony (Rom. 4:9-10).
    * Jesus declared people forgiven before they were baptized (Mt. 9:1-7; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; Jn. 8:1-12).
    * Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before baptism (Acts 10:44-48).
    * The Bible shows that forgiveness and salvation are received by faith (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 5:1; 10:1-13; Eph. 2:10).

In the light of these factors, baptism should be seen as an outward act by which we publicly identify with Christ and His church. It is not a requirement for salvation.

Good Works. "But what about works?" some people ask. "Wouldn't it be unfair for God to forgive on the basis of faith alone? Didn't James say that faith without works is dead?"

Without a doubt, good works are important to every Christian. The Bible calls for good works. But good deeds are not a condition for receiving forgiveness (see Rom. 3:27-28).

Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that rather than being a condition for forgiveness, good works are the fruit and evidence of a forgiven life. Those who are saved through faith become God's "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (v.10).

But what about James' statement that "faith without works is dead"? James was saying that genuine faith produces good works. Christlike actions allow us to be justified, or declared right, in the eyes of those around us. It is the way we prove the reality of our faith (Jas. 2:14-26). Our good deeds are not a part of the basis of our forgiveness but a natural result of it.

To summarize: The wonderful message of the Bible is that forgiveness comes through faith alone. It is not faith plus repentance, faith plus baptism, faith plus good works, or faith plus anything!

[Shammu]

I don't know where you get your information, but your wrong.

 The first place we need to start is to look back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word “eis.” What we find is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament), that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and some that would not. While both of the meanings of the Greek word “eis” are seen in different passages of Scriptures, such noted Greek scholars including A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition “eis” in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of,” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

 One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where we see the word “eis” communicating the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word “eis”). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).

Another error that is made by those who believe that Acts 2:38 teaches that baptism is required for salvation is what is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. Simply put this is the idea that just because a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are true. In other words just because Acts 2:38 says “repent and be baptized….for the forgiveness of sins…and the gift of the Holy Spirit,” does not mean that if one repents and is not baptized they will not receive forgiveness of sins or the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 The fact that baptism is not required to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit should also be evident by simply reading a little farther in the book of Acts, In Acts 10:43, Peter tells Cornelius that “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (please note that nothing at this point has been mentioned about being baptized yet Peter connects believing in Christ with the act of receiving forgiveness for sins.) The next thing that happens is, having believed Peter’s message about Christ, the “Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” (Acts 10:44). It is only after they had believed, and therefore received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, that Cornelius and his household were baptized (Acts 10:47-48). The context and the passage are very clear; Cornelius and his household received both forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized. In fact, the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized was because they showed evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit “just as Peter and the Jewish believers” had.

My own conclusion, Acts 2:38 does not teach that baptism is required for salvation. While baptism is important as the sign that one has been justified by faith and as the public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and membership in a local body of believers, it is not the means of remission or forgiveness of sins. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (John 1:12; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-30; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:9; Galatians 2:16).

Satisfied MInd, you really need to study your bible better. Stop following the doctrine of man, and follow Gods doctrine.

[1Tim]

OK, here's my two cents   

The understanding of Acts 2:38 seems to be a hinging point here.  The question is this: is forgiveness of sin, and the gift of the Holy Ghost given to us because we believed, or because we were obidient to the command to be baptized?  If it is because we were baptized, then we are  not born again, and therefore saved, by faith alone.  He holds out on us untill we do something.  If it is the result of faith, because we believed, then being born again has nothing to do with water baptizm.  The Bible says we are saved through faith alone, " For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. (that means apart from obeying a command ) Rom 3:28.  Mt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:25,26, and 33 state the difference between Johns baptism with water, which we are also commanded to observe, and Jesus' baptism with the Holy Ghost.  "If baptism is something man does, then that would mean man grants the one being baptized the Holy Ghost",-- if the Holy Ghost comes to man in the waters of baptism, . That is why that is not the way it happens.  We are born again through the Spirit when we believe, through faith. Romans 10 :13-17 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”  17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
 Here Paul sets up his argument, concluding with vs. 17 that faith comes from hearing the word of God, he does not say from water baptism. In fact, his rhetorical question in vs. 14, "...and how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?" reveals his point, that there is only one way: to believe the Word. Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?  Here Paul points out the Holy Ghost is recieved when we believe, not by doing a command. We are told to be baptized.  That is a command, but not so we recieve the Holy Gost.  If it were, then what Paul insinuates in Gal 3:2 is false. There are two different baptisms referred to in these passages, and they reveal that being baptized with water is in fact an act we do.  We are told to do it.  The concept that God sets up a prescribed behavior pattern (baptism) that we can do, and God responds to that act, is occultic in nature.  The occult is all about what we can do to get god (or the gods) to do what we want them to do, and that is exactly why Jesus set up a plan where no man is ever looked to, and exactly why works done by man will never result in Gods favor, only faith in His promise is rewarded.

If in Acts 2:38 Luke was trying to say that forgiveness came through water baptizm, then why, in Acts 10:43 does he only say it comes through believing. The 10:43 passage is clear, and should be used to clarify the muddied 2:38 passage, not the other way arround.  In Acts 2:38-39 the phrase, "...and you will recieve the Holy Ghost" reveals the result of repentance, not of being baptized with water.  The Holy Ghost is recieved as a result of believing, as Paul points out.  Repentance is the responce of believing, and being baptized with water is the outward expression of that faith.  Just one chapter later, in Acts 3:19,20, the theological position held in Acts 2:38 is repeated by the same person, and recorded by the same author : Acts 3:19,20" Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. "  We must understand Acts 2:38, in the light of the more clearly expressed Acts 3:19,20, otherwise, we end up with a contradiction in scripture. 

Teaching, and makeing Disciples are about the same thing, and don't change the meaning at all.  Both include the idea of a continuing process, transferring knowlege and understanding.  You can't teach, or make disciples in a one time event, and thats why you can't make a disciple by baptizing them--a one time event.  It is not the case that "teaching observance" and "baptizing" are tools to make disciples with, because it is not us that brings people to faith, it is God.  We only carry the message.  This concept you promote here is not pointing to Jesus' act on the cross, but our own act in bringing people to faith, therefore it is not from the Holy Spirit, since He only points to Jesus.  A better understanding of what the passage says is: "Go, make disciples...teach them by example to obey...and also baptize.  Baptizing, and teaching, are verbs, they describe an action we are told  to do.  The baptizm of the Holy Ghost is not something we do, but water baptism is.   Since baptizing is something we do, and Jesus told us to do it, and to be baptized ourselves, then obeying, and becomeing baptized is obediance to the command.  We can not be saved by obediance to a command..........................

[1Tim]

OOps, that was only one cent, here's the other one 

......................Acts 22:16 says ,"Get up, be baptized..."  thats two things to do, ..."and wash your sins away"  Something you do does not wash your sins away, so this passage is not saying that washing sins away is a result of being baptized.  It is assuming the understanding that before a person submits to the outward sign of water baptism, the faith that prompts obediance to the command is allready in place.  Sins are washed away because we believe the Word, and the act of baptism as they did it, by submersion, is the illustration of what takes place spiritually upon believing the Word and the resulting spiritual baptism of the receiving of the Holy Ghost,  which John the Baptist said Jesus does.  Romans 6:3-4 illustrates the picture.  Paul uses the picture of full immersion in water as the burial, and the comeing out of the water is the illustration of the ressurection with Jesus to a knew life.  Here again it is not the result of what we do, but the picture of what allready happened the moment we believed and were born again.  Romans 3:27 does not say we clothed ourselves (or were clothed) as a result of being baptized.  Paul merely points out by useing an outward expression of faith that we are clothed in righteusness.  There again, it assumes the understanding that the reason for the act, was faith allready present.  If the act of being baptized was not a responce of faith, it is reduced to a ritual by which something can be gained.  God responds to the condition of our heart towards Him, not to the position of our bodies-that would be more like occult theology than the Bible.  1 Peter 3:21,  "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".  What water is it that symbolizes baptism?  The water of the flood that originated in two places.  It rained down from the heavens, and broke forth from the earth.  When a person is baptized with the Holy Ghost, He is rained down from Heaven, and wells up within, floating the Christian above the grasp of the world, drownding the world and those who choose to stay in it, cleansing us from it. Peter defines the act of baptizm here, as the plege of a good concience before God. Not an outword result, but an inward one.  It's a plege, an outward statement of the condition, and commitment,  of our heart towards God, made possible only by the last scentance of that vs., by the ressurecction of Jesus.  1Cor 6:11   And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.   The vs. says that the 'acts'...washed...sanctified...justified were done, in the name of  Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.  It has nothing to do with water baptism.  Titus 3:5-7 has nothing to do with baptism by water.  It is talking about baptism by the Holy Ghost.  Nowhere in the context of the passage is Paul even referencing water baptism.  The passage even says, "...washing of rebirth...BY the Holy Spirit.  In Eph 2:8-9 Paul said that we are saved by grace, through faith...without works.  The result of faith, is salvation.  Faith itself is the result of believing the word of God.  How then can Paul turn right arround and say that we are saved by baptism with water, only 3 chapters later in the same letter?  The only answer is; he isn't.  Paul is saying we are saved by  faith, and it is professed by obediance to the command to be baptized, faith that came to us through believing the Word.    In Eph. 5:26, there are two prepositional phrases; 'by the washing of water', and 'with the word'.  Both modify the verb, 'cleansed' .  The passage says the church was cleansed--with the word, and, by the washing with water.  1 Peter 3:21 qualifies how we are cleansed ' by the washing with water'; as the plege of a clear concience toward God, again, calling up the picture of dying to the world and being resurrected again in Christ--the way Paul was trying to illustrate how men are to live with their wives--as dead to self, but alive toward her.

Peter recognized in Acts 10 & 11 that Cornelius, and his household were baptized with the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with water.  What did jesus say to the thief on the cross?  He said, "Today you will be with Me in paradise.  The thief was not baptized.  Water baptism is not nessesary to be saved, but faith is.

Forgive me if this seems a little disjointed...it is.  I just cut and pasted this from an argument I wrote to my uncle, who is a Lutheran pastor, and holds the exact view expressed in the last few posts.

[1Tim]

Excellent posts PR & DW 

[1Tim]

It is very important to understand that the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” as that phenomenon was initiated both in Acts 2 and 10, was not a condition for anyone’s personal salvation. It was a miraculous authentication of divinely orchestrated events – unique to those occasions. It is thus not being implemented today as a means to any person’s conversion.

"It is very important to understand that"...that statement is false.  The baptism of the Holy Ghost is most certainly a condition of salvation...at least Jesus said it was, so I gotta float my boat with Him.

Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

1 Peter 1:23
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

[Soldier4Christ]

"It is very important to understand that"...that statement is false.  The baptism of the Holy Ghost is most certainly a condition of salvation...at least Jesus said it was, so I gotta float my boat with Him.

Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

1 Peter 1:23
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Amen. We are also told:

Luk 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is an event that still happens today. If this was not true then that would be to say that no one today is being saved. Just because a person does not speak in tongues or other such things does not mean they are not being baptized by the Holy Ghost. That simply means they are not being bestowed with those particular gifts. To be baptized with the Holy Ghost simply means that the Holy Ghost is now residing within your heart, your heart has been washed with the Holy Spirit.


2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

[1Tim]

Matthew 10:37
37 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;


What I believe that passage is saying, is that if someone chooses to be loyal to the opinion of a person, church, denomination...ect. instead of to Him...

Why do you believe what you believe?  Is it because that is what Jesus revealed to you in His written word, or because someone told you that is what it says?  If you choose to believe what someone said the Bible says, then you're placeing your trust in the person who told you what the Bible said, and not in Jesus, aren't you?

Once upon a time, I believed what someone said was in the Bible, and would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you SatisfiedMind, arguing the same position...untill I read it myself.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I have read this thread and reflected on many things that are completely true and beautiful.

1 - The CROSS is the most precious event in human history, and many things changed. It's interesting that JESUS CHRIST did not reveal everything that his crucifixion would result in. In fact, JESUS revealed very little. JESUS CHRIST was made manifest in the flesh, Very GOD, and he was born, lived, and died under the Mosaic Law. In more ways than one, JESUS CHRIST conquered the curse of sin and death on the CROSS, and HE completed the work of Salvation most perfectly. The work of JESUS CHRIST was and is so perfect that there is NOTHING that man can add or take away from it. When JESUS CHRIST said "It is finished" on the CROSS, it was FINISHED and is the ONLY perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

2 - Our Salvation today depends on our belief in JESUS CHRIST, who HE was and is, and what HE did for us on the CROSS in our place. Our faith and trust in JESUS CHRIST is the only way for Salvation. Our Salvation in all REALITY is FAITH ALONE IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE! HE did arise from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING Lord and Saviour. Everything about SALVATION IS ALIVE FOR ETERNITY! GOD the FATHER is real and alive, GOD the SON is real and alive, GOD the HOLY SPIRIT is real and alive - YET, the THREE are ONE!

3 - At the very moment that we accept JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR, many beautiful things happen immediately and many other Promises of GOD are put into effect that are absolute and will be accomplished at HIS appointed time. Immediately at the moment of Salvation:

• We are TRANSLATED into the BODY OF CHRIST and become a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST forever!
• We are Baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, the HOLY SPIRIT enters our hearts and stays for eternity, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD as a pledge of eternal life and the many other Promises of GOD. NO power in the universe can break the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. Please note "WITH" not "BY". "BY" may indicate that the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD SEALS the heart of the new believer and leaves. "WITH" is the absolute REALITY that the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is the SEAL and HE stays in the heart of the new believer, actually making the heart of the believer as a TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD for HIS abode forever. In the absence of the HOLY SPIRIT, the person is not saved and JESUS CHRIST does NOT know that person.
• The sins of the new believer are washed away as if they had never happened. The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS is the ONLY PERFECT ATONEMENT.
• A new believer is made fit through JESUS CHRIST immediately to become a child of GOD and receive the inheritance of the Saints in LIGHT. If the new believer physically dies 10 seconds after becoming SAVED, ALL of the PROMISES of GOD will be fulfilled perfectly and eternally.
• The old man of sin is crucified with Christ, and the new child of GOD is BORN of incorruptible SEED. Here we see the term of "BORN AGAIN", and this REALITY is IMMEDIATE.
• Now we go back to the first REALITY - THE WORK OF SALVATION WAS FINISHED PERFECTLY BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. We did nothing to earn or deserve Salvation, and we can do NOTHING to maintain Salvation. That WORK is done by JESUS CHRIST, and no power in the universe can pluck us out of HIS Mighty HANDS!
• We are seen in and through JESUS CHRIST, and HE is the ONLY ONE who makes us fit for the eternal Promises of GOD. Apart from JESUS CHRIST, we don't have any righteousness or any other attribute that makes us fit to be the children of GOD. If we die, we are absent from the body and present with JESUS CHRIST. Our physical bodies are corruptible, and they will be changed to incorruptible bodies that are glorified by GOD at HIS appointed time.

Brothers and Sisters, I never get tired of hearing these precious truths. They are the promises of GOD, and all will be perfectly fulfilled at GOD'S appointed time. The things that happen immediately at the moment of Salvation are a precious REALITY made possible only by the BLOOD of JESUS and HIS perfect Sacrifice on the CROSS. These immediate things that happen at the moment of Salvation should fill our hearts with love and appreciation for our Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST. We will hear and feel the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT living in our hearts forever. If we listen and yield, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD will guide us and lead us in all things. We are KEPT by GOD, not by ourselves! In terms of our Salvation, we should KNOW beyond any doubt at all that we didn't deserve it, rather it was a GIFT from our GREAT GOD of Love and Grace to every man or woman who will believe in JESUS CHRIST and accept HIM as Lord and Saviour. We are left with saying:

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Colossians 2:13-17 NASB  When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 NASB  For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 5:4-5 NASB  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Romans 1:16-17 NASB  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.