Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

[Paul2]

    Petro,

   Come back when you finally fiqure out how to present and defend your theory addressing my 4 part post on the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

   Your still trying to argue my theory while yours lays dead and exposed and undefended by you.

                                                       Paul2

[Petro]

petro
the pretrib. comeing of christ isnt litteral . 1 thess 4;16-17/ cor. 15;51-58.the second comeing is after the rapture and the 7 yr. trib matt 24;30 / rev. 19;11-21
                                   
                       you both are very intence its great
                                     
                                           butcha

Hello buthcha,

You have stated correct, the second coming of Jesus, does follow the rapture.

It is your insertion of a 7 year period, that does butcha the word.

The Bbile does not teach that, point at all........you will never find 7 years between a rapture and the Lords return in scriture,  ..........that is the point I am making.....

That is why Paul2 is wrong,  unfortunately, the books popularized by Tim La Haye, are uninspiured, this is one of the primary reasons why the rapture has gained such popurlarity and attention these days these days.

There is no evidence their is a rapture seven years before the Lords coming, this is the error being perpetuated by the pre trib theory..... but hey, we are in the last days, it shouldn't surprise Christians, that all sorts of theories and ideas will be put forth, to distract Christians from what they ought to be doing in the end times,  there is an apostasy, followed by the revelation of the man of sin, then comes the rapture.................this by itself should raise red flags to christians, since the pre trib theory, have the rapture preceding all other signs....go figure?

Thanks for the fishing invite, but sitting in a boat packed like cattle is not my idea of having fun,  walking a stream and fly fishings in the Hi Sierras ............. now, that gets me excited.


Blessings,

Petro

[Eddielee]

   The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

If you are unwilling to speak about your views when challenged, please keep them out of the debate entirely. Lets keep this focused on pre-wrath.

[AJ]

What do you guys think about this...

Chapter 12

Who are the Woman and Her Children?

http://www.restoringthevision.com/Ch12RtheV.htm

Like he said... i think this is the key to the Rapture...ive been studying this for two years now and i still dont have it all understood. I do agree with at least 95% of what this guy has to say but not all. As im still studying it

God Bless

AJ

 

[Paul2]

   The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

If you are unwilling to speak about your views when challenged, please keep them out of the debate entirely. Lets keep this focused on pre-wrath.

   Eddielee,

    Petro is the only one I'm not willing to debate until he presents and defends his interpretation.

    I'm willing to discuss my Pre-Tribulation interpretation with anyone other than Petro right now.

   For the record the Pre-wrath theory I have challenged was Petro's pre-Wrath theory. He never presented much of it but it was his theory I challenged, not yours.

    I have not seen your theory yet. Your new here. There are pages of debates on my other thread. You don't know the history behind why I will not discuss my interpretation with Petro any more until he presents and defends his theory.

    If you want to show Petro how to present the Pre-Wrath interpretation go right ahead.

    I started this post because My original debates with Petro will become buried and forgotten on the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread. After months of Petro's attacks I don't want people to forget that Petro hasn't been able to present and defend HIS interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture so I started this thread. I want people to understand that Petro, who constantly wants to challenge my interpretation is unwilling or unable to present and defend his interpretation of the Pre-Wrath which he claims to believe.

    I shouldn't be asked to stay out of a debate that I started, on a thread I created. Seems people always try to limit me on my posts on my threads.

    Who is it your posting to? If you want to just debate Petro, I'll just sit back and let you debate him. Perhaps you can drag his theory out of him.

   If you want to debate me on the Pre-Wrath interpretation you must pesent your interpretation, after all, its the theory you believe. When debating interpretations both peoples interpretations are expected to be refered to. Its basicly offering an alternative position. If you want to teach your interpretation I welcome it. I'd like to have Petro do the same and compare them.

   You haven't presented your interpretation yet so I haven't debated you yet. All my posts are directed to Petro who won't present his theory or respond to my challenges of what little of his theory can be put together.

    I'm led to believe that your Pre-Wrath interpretation differs from Petro's but I haven't seen Petro's theory explained yet.

    I have no problem allowing you to present your interpretation. I'd like to examine your theory, to test your theory against Scripture.

   You may have the answers that Petro doesn't have. I won't know until you explain it. Petro has no solutions to the problems I see with "his" theory of how the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place and when the Wrath of God begins and ends.

   I'll ask you this question: When do you believe the wrath of God begins? Before Daniel's 70th week? During Daniel's 70th week? Or at the end of Daniel's 70th week? When does the Rapture take place? Before Daniel's 70th week? During Daniel's 70th week? Or at the end of Daniel's 70th week?  

   Does the Rapture occur followed by a period of time until the Second Coming or do both events happen on the same day? Petro believes, from what I've been able to put together, that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. That there is no time period between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Whats your theory?

                                                                 Paul2

[Eddielee]

I'll start a new thread then to answer your questions from my viewpoint.

[BUTCHA]

paul

you  have done some great work. thanks

petro
    i'm open to what your saying, your makeing me dig deeper into this, wich is good.  

[Paul2]

paul

you  have done some great work. thanks

petro
    i'm open to what your saying, your makeing me dig deeper into this, wich is good.  

    Butcha,

    Thanks for letting me know you appriecate my efforts. It makes it all worth while when people like you let me know I'm not wasting my time. Take some time to search back thru the pages of "the Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. The first page has alot of important topics concerning the Rapture, to me anyways. This "show down" between Petro and I has been building of a while now. Reading thru the posts of the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" will explain it.

    I hope you check out the other thread and read the first page at least. Your welcome to join in on the discussions.

    Welcome A-Board!

                                                           Paul2

[Petro]

paul

you  have done some great work. thanks

petro
    i'm open to what your saying, your makeing me dig deeper into this, wich is good.  

butcha,

Great, that is my objective.

I have an answer but, being an ole hand at poker in my days before being saved, there are certain things that one retains in his thinking, I never reveal my hand, until it is time, and no one can force it either, I played this game before.

At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS.  And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience.

It is not issue should not be theory against theory, it is a theory against Gods Word, as I see it.

Let's disprove one at a time, not match them up, and then start argueing about the theories.

It is silly to want to compare my theory against yours, there are to many theories out there already.

We need to weed out the obvious erroneous ones first.

Don't you think??


Blessings,

Petro

[Paul2]

butcha,

Great, that is my objective.

I have an answer but, being an ole hand at poker in my days before being saved, there are certain things that one retains in his thinking, I never reveal my hand, until it is time, and no one can force it either, I played this game before.

    LOL!!!!!  Petro's playing a game alright. Its called "hide the fact that I don't know the answers!" He seems to think we should just trust him and that he has answers he doesn't want to reveal. LOL!!!!

   At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS.  And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience.

  quoting Petro: "And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to," Petro, thats what your counting on! Perhaps you can play your poker like BLUFF long enough not to have to reveal you were bluffing and had no answers to begin with!!!! LOL!!! I call your bluff, show your cards!  

    I like your poker comment, its quiet revealing! I'll bet you were really good a bluffing weren't you Petro?

It is not issue should not be theory against theory, it is a theory against Gods Word, as I see it.

     Good! Then explain the Scriptures I used to destroy your theory. I put God's word against your theory and your theory fell apart.

Let's disprove one at a time, not match them up, and then start argueing about the theories.

   In other words let Petro attack the Pre-Trib. theory and let him ignore his disproved Pre-Wrath theory. Only Petro can attack theories, lets not discuss his theory, Petro doesn't like to do that. He might have to reveal that he is bluffing and has no answers.

It is silly to want to compare my theory against yours, there are to many theories out there already.

    Is it silly to compare your theory to the word of God Petro? I compared your theory against the word of God and proved your theory is not possible.

We need to weed out the obvious erroneous ones first.

   LOL!!!! CLASSIC!!! Oh I get it, you want to attack everybody else and keep your theory hidden from debate and attacks and from being tested by the word of God. Good plan for a man who has no clue to how his theory works! LOL!!!!

Don't you think??

    Are you asking if we think? Are you wondering if you can fool us? I think that you assume we are all stupid. You expect Butcha to believe you have answers you won't share and don't have and want to be allowed to bash the Pre-Tribulation theory without anyone looking at the flaws of your Pre-Wrath theory. Your Silly!

At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS.  And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience.

   Your trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes. Your trying to fool everybody. Do you really think we are that stupid.

    Petro only wants to "play" by Petro's rules. Petro thinks he's playing poker and thinks he's the dealer who gets to pick the game and rules. Petro is bluffing and has no answers to how his theory works! He thinks that if he makes the rules nobody will call his bluff! LOL!!!!! I CALL PETRO!!!!

    Butcha, call Petro's bluff! Have him put his cards on the table for all to see. You will see he has nothing and is bluffing. He can't present or defend his interpretation and thats why he's "playing" his game his way hoping no one will object. He just wants to be allowed to bash the Pre-Trib. Rapture but ignore his Pre-Wrath theory which I have proven flawed.

   Petro, you never cease to amaze me. You really think we're all that stupid don't you? I hope people call your bluff! I hope nobody allows you to "play" your game and make the rules.

    I hope everybody will ask you to show your hand that your trying to keep tight to your vest. People don't play Petro's game. This isn't a game! Petro wants to control how you study and how you think. Petro thinks he's smarter than everybody here. He thinks we will allow him to attack the Pre-Trib. theory and allow his flawed theory to go un-noticed.

    Petro is being deceptive and is "playing a game." If he has answers then ask him to present them. Don't allow Petro to trick you into believing he has answers that he doesn't have!

   Whats wrong with you people? Can't you see what Petro is trying to do? He thinks your dumb enough to allow him to tie your hands behind your back so he can attack you without being hit back. His theory is flawed! I have exposed the flaws! He ignores the flaws but tells you he has answers he's not willing to share. He even stated he hopes he doesn't have to!

"At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS.  And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience."

 
     Its time you people tell Petro that the appointed time is NOW! He's planning on avoiding the conflicts within his interpretation and just attacking the Pre-Trib. interpretaton.

    Petro is being deceptive and trying to fool you. Its the only way he knows how to play his game. I can't believe your all letting him get away with it. Read his words again and think about what he has said.

    I don't think you people are stupid, Petro does. Don't allow Petro to make fools out of you. Speak up and call his bluff!

   He can try to avoid answering me but if everybody asks him to reveal his secret answers that he's not willing to share he'll have to do something about it. He'll probably run away but until you call his bluff we'll never know will we?

                                                              Paul2

[Paul2]

 
       If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth.

The pre-wrath position holds that the church goes through the wrath of satan, which is part of the 70th week, but it does not go through the entire 70th week, which includes the wrath of God.

   If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth).

The second coming and the wrath of God start on the same day, but the wrath of God spans the rest of the 70th week, through all the vials. It does not end on the same day as the rapture; whatever has been written in other posts the pre-wrath view does not hold that the end of the 70th week and the rapture happen in one 24 hour time span.

    Explain this to Petro. I don't understand how the Second Coming can "Start" on the Same day the Wrath of God starts. The Second Coming is an event. Its Christ returning to earth. Are you saying Christ stood up but took years to get ready to come back. The Second coming begins when he leaves Heaven and comes to earth. We can discuss this later.

The only people left on the earth  should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

There is a group in this that is not being taken into account. There must be people who:
a.) Are not given spiritual bodies during the 70th week
b.) Who are not believers (else they would be raptured)
c.) Who do not take the mark of the beast

These things must be, because in Isaiah 65:20 this is written about the Millenium:
Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;

If this is talking about the Millenium, then flesh must survive the 70th week (as pointed out in these posts). If it did not then no one would be able to die at a "young" age.

How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

   This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast.

The span of time between the conceptualized pre-wrath rapture and the 7 vials can be nearly half of the 70th week. There are people who are neither saved nor taken by the mark of the beast throughout all of it;

    Try to explain this to Petro. Ask Petro what he thinks of what you have said. Petro has painted himself into a corner. He has stated that the Wrath doesn't begin until after the Rapture which he places on the same day as the Second Coming. Try to get Petro to address the issues you presented here. Good luck. You understand the theory and see the flaws in the way Petro interprets the Rapture and Second Coming. You also understand that the Wrath of God in the 7 vials take effect during the last half of Daniel's 70th week. Try to get Petro to respond to your theory. You explain it better than he does. I have issues with some parts of your theory but I'll allow you to continue to present your case before jumping into debate you. I haven't seen where you place the Rapture of the Church in relation to the timing of the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week yet. Perhaps you will address my issues when you explain more about the Pre-Wrath theory. Petro's theory doesn't work and you understand why.

    Petro doesn't like to present his theory for fear it will be challenged and proven wrong as I have just done anyways. Try to get Petro to address your theory. Ask him whether he accepts that the Wrath of God takes effect during the Second Half of Daniel's 70th week or if it begins the same day as the Rapture and second Coming which he ties together on the same day. You know he's wrong, and I know he's wrong, but Petro refuses to present his interpretation so everybody will know he's wrong. He's trying to keep the fact that he's wrong a secret just like his theory is secret and his answers are a secret. Petro's playing poker and is bluffing.

    He doesn't want to let me deal and challenge his interpretation, he wants to play his game and keep his interpretation a secret hoping he never has to present it or expose his lack of ability to do so.

    Try to get Petro to explain his flawed Pre-Wrath theory to you. Ask him why he refuses to discuss his theory with you. Try to show him the flaws you can see with his interpretation. You see his mistakes that make his interpretation impossible. Show him his mistakes. You can present the Pre-Wrath Rapture better than Petro because you understand the flaws I have pointed out making his interpretation wrong. Try to get Petro to agree with you on your theory. He can't present his so see if he will accept yours. He won't because he would have to admit he made mistakes. Call him out and see what happens.

   I think Petro will be afraid to debate you on your theory. By doing so he would expose the fact that his interpretation must be wrong. Petro only wants to bash the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. He certainly doesn't want to discuss the Pre-Wrath Rapture with you because you will present a different interpretation than he has and expose his flaws just like I have.

    You and I can debate soon but I would like to see where you place certain events like the Rapture and the Second Coming.

     I would love to see you debate Petro on the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I'd love to hear you ask Petro why he won't discuss a theory he believes. I'd love to hear you ask Petro why he is only willing to bash the Pre-Trib. Rapture but not willing to defend his Pre-Wrath Rapture when its been proven wrong.

   Please, Please, Please! I ask you to put these questions and any others to Petro. Ask him why he's playing poker. We may disagree between you and I but we both agree Petro is wrong. He figures that by bashing me he'll be able to avoid dealing with the flaws of his interpretation. Does that seem fair? He'll never challenge you because you will prove him wrong. All he does is challenge me. He is trying to discredit me because I have proven his interpretation is wrong. You know it, I know it, Petro knows it and everybody reading knows it. Whether or not people agree with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is irrelevant to what Petro is doing. Does it seem fair to you that Petro keeps bashing a theory when you can see the flaws of his theory that he refuses to address?

   If Petro was doing this to any of you and I was witnessing it I'd speak up and make a challenge. I would not allow Petro to play his game of attacking any of you while refusing to discuss the flaws presented against his interpretation which he refuses to discuss.

   I'm amazed everybody is just ignoring this. Isn't anybody insulted that Petro thinks we are all stupid? Nobody cares that he's playing his poker like game? Nobody cares that he refuses to discuss his theory but attacks others freely? Nobody thinks Petro owes us an explaination? Should Petro get a free pass when he refuses to state his beliefs for fear of being proven wrong?

   I don't know what surprizes me the most, Petro's game or the People who allow him to play it.

   Come on people, don't just sit back and watch, say something! Please!

   I'll show you how to do it.

   Petro, why don't you respond to what EddieLee has posted about the Pre-Wrath Rapture? Is EddieLee wrong Petro or do you agree. Whats the differnce between your theory Petro and the theory EddieLee has presented so far?

   Are we having fun yet?

                                                                 Paul2

[sincereheart]

Is taunting the topic of this thread?  

[Paul2]

Is taunting the topic of this thread?  

   No, the topic of this thread is Petro's flawed interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the fact that all he does is attack the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and anyone who believes it.

   Don't like my taunting, talk to Petro. You haven't had to put up with this for months, I have.  I wish I didn't need to post any of these last posts but what choice do I have? Remain silent and allow Petro to play his poker type game?

   Sorry but thats not an option for me. Petro continues to bash the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and won't address his private interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture will he? He's keeping his theory a secret while attacking others and their theories. Before you cast your judgement you might want to look at the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" starting at page 20 and see how this all began.

   Take a look at who's thread Petro posts his arguements on. My thread so don't be surprized if I respond. If he wants to play his game on my thread these are the results he can expect. Petro can post whatever he wants to but I'm going to respond on my thread to his little game he's playing.

    I'm not willing to allow Petro to continue to bash the Pre-Trib. theory and fool people into believing he has answer but has chosen to keep them a secret. If he wants to attack he should be willing to defend also.

   Sorry this thread seems to offend you but the ball is in Petro's court. He makes the decision to keep attacking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I make the decision to point out the fact that he won't present or defend his Pre-Wrath theory which I exposed as not possible.

    I suppose You think I should allow poor Petro to just keep attacking me even though I have proved his theory is flawed. Does that seem fair to you? If Petro has decided to put himself into this situation why should anyone not expect me to point these things out?

   What makes Petro so special that he should be allowed to attack my interpretation on my thread? Why can't I point out the fact that Petro refuses to discuss his theory which I have proven flawed. He attacks repeatedly but nobody says anything about the fact that he is not willing to present or defend his position. Petro is playing a game. Read his words.

    Petro should be able to defend himself if he wants to attack others and their position constantly. He shouldn't need you to stick up for him when he put himself here.

   You seem to want to allow Petro to play his game with everybody and be able to attack everybody, and never address his theory which has been proven to be flawed.

   You can feel bad for Petro if you want to. Petro put himself into the situation and only Petro can get himself out of it. He doesn't want to stop his attacks so don't expect me to sit back and just watch him take shots at the Pre-Trib. position when Petro won't take a stand and tell us what he believes.

   Petro chose to play his game with me, I just call it as I see it.

   Sorry you don't like my responces but I not sorry I'm responding. I call a "spade" a "Spade" to use poker terms.

                                                             Paul2

[Petro]

What do you guys think about this...

Chapter 12

Who are the Woman and Her Children?

http://www.restoringthevision.com/Ch12RtheV.htm

Like he said... i think this is the key to the Rapture...ive been studying this for two years now and i still dont have it all understood. I do agree with at least 95% of what this guy has to say but not all. As im still studying it

God Bless

AJ

 

aj,

The article at the site you have pointed out  is well presented and very good.  This person connects scripture to scripture in a carefully thought out and meticulous way, I enjoyed reading it.

The conclusion, that the first fruits are raptured, before the main harvest is what creates a problem for all postisions;

The pre tribbers will accuse God, of being unfair and unjust if any believers are left to go thru the Great Tribulation, so they place a rapture before, even the signs, which are given to believers as a source of comfort, while the Mid Tribbers reject a the pre trib rapture, they also teach the marriage union of the church to Christ during the Great Tribulation which we agree is the last half of the tribulation period, while pre wrath futurists reject both because it excludes what are clearly members of the church the body of Christ, as being excluded from the union to Christ, for that reason the rapture taught by both camps is not viewed as what is taught in scripture;

And that is that all who belong to Christ are members of the church and more particular members of His body.

And if being made perfect means being united with Christ, then how does one reconcile, the scriptures, more particular;

Heb 11
40  ....................That they without us should not be made perfect.

speaking of all the men of FAITH listed in this chapter at Heb 11??


It actually brings me back to my core questions which I have been asking from the very begining of Paul2's thread on the pre trib rapture.

Who are the called chosen elect saints?? and

Are these, members of the church or not??


If not what scriptures can anyone post which proves they are not??

As you can see if you go back to the begining of Paul2's thread, this has never been addressed, a feeble attempt was made at one point, but beyond that no effort has been made to reconcile any ideas, thoughts or theories to the pre trib position.

At one point their misunderstanding of Rev 12, to mean national Israel, brought the discussion to a standstill.

I agree with most everything this person who wrote the article stated, and I really appreciate the scriptures he ties together solidly, however, identifying who the members of the church are is of the utmost importance before rendering a conclusion who is and isn't left out of the wedding union, and when it occurs.

The rapture will not precede the signs given at 2 Th 2:3, and neither will it be after pouring out of Gods Wrath upon the earth.

This article reminded of two things,

1.  That Jesus reminded the apostles while discoursing with them at the mount of olives (Mat 24), that  "there shall not an hair of your head perish." Lk 21:18

Yet all of them were martyred for their FAITH in HIM.

and;

2.  That Gods will is that none perish, but that all should come to repentance...........

Some of us Christians, seem to believe God says we will not go through tribulation, nor Satans wrath, which is clear some of  the saints will experience that wrath during the tribulation,
pre tribbers even accusing God, of being a butcher, (as some have of the other thread) for putting NT saints thru tribulation.

I think what they are really offended at, is the idea that they may have to experience the great tribulation, it doesn't seem to matter to them, some of the brethern will, after all they will be happily attending a wedding ceremony, while other saints are on the earth running and hiding for their lives.

Any scriptures which will help this thread along are welcome.

ut please no more theories.


Blessings,

Petro




I would

[AJ]

Hi Paul2 I see all your work.. and it is good to have people trying to figger out the rapture...and putting all this work in to it..Anyway i have a question, you say the Church is in heaven when John is called up... what day did John say he was in the spirit when he was taken to heaven? Is it not the lords day? It wouldnt be hard to see the Church in heaven on the lords day..since this is the day the lord comes to take the Antichrist and fight his armys.  

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Amo 5:20  Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Now you also say this trumpet is the rapture trumpet. Correct? If this is the rapture trumpet then he heard it on the lords day...how am i doing so far?

So what does Jesus do at this trumpet on the lords day ...wait in the sky till the Antichrist sets himself up 3 1/2 years into the great tribulation... and then come to fight his armys? Because this is what he would need to do in order to come before the 7 year Trib.

Your thoughts

God Bless