Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

[Paul2]

   Petro,

   I'll address the issues you have pointed out to clarify what the Pre-Tribulation position is and why. There are many reasons why we believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and I'll present them and explain them. You won't address the issues I have brought up with problems I see with your theory but I'll continue to present and explain mine even though you have chosen to ignore my issues with your Pre-Wrath theory. You assume you know the Pre-Trib. interpretation but often you have misinterpreted our beliefs when you present what you think we believe. I know what I believe and why and I'll explain the Pre.Tribulation Rapture from the perspective of someone who believes it.

    My tone has changed, my hostility is gone. I'll address the issues that you have brought up regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

    I'll deal with the "apostasy" issue soon but first I want to address some things that I feel need to be pointed out.

    I'll be finishing this message to you and all who read these posts over at the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread because I'll be refering to previous posts which people will be able to quote and reply to.

    If I need to quote your posts I'll copy the quotes over to the other thread and reply to them there most of the time. Thats my plan for now anyways.

                                                         Paul2

[AJ]

Thats correct The man child is caught up to God at the mid point with no trumpet...the woman is protected here on earth for 3 1/2 years...she goes with the last trump, she will be the only one left ...as the man child is gone, and the rest of the saints are killed. Understand now?

Praise the lord Petro im still studying it.

God bless you  

aj,

No, actually you have confused me moreso,  

It seems as thou you are saying, the woman is the church, and so is the man child, He (He meaning; part of the church is raptured) and the rest of the church is left behind.

How do you connect the Woman being one and the same as the Man child??

Gal 4, says;
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This same heavenly Jerusalem is mentioned as the bride at;

Rev 21
2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

As I understahnd it,  the church is a great mystery, please note this scripture;

Eph 5
21  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is clear to me, that the union of the church and Christ have not occured at Rev 12.

So to consider them as one and same at the point of Rev 12, is not scriptural.

On the other hand if there is any truth, that wedding occurs after the rapture, and before His coming, then this might be considered as a viable conclusion.

If the rapture occurs at the shortening of the days of the great tribulation (this is Pre Wrath as opposed to Post Trib, since it occurs imediately before the end of the Great Trib, His return is imediately after the Tribulation of those days.) and the union to Christ is celebrated (no saints, who are members of his body, of his flesh and of His bones is left out),

This is the central point of debate, between Pre Tribulationist together with Mid  Tribulationists  and  the Pre Wrath Rapture position, they (pre and mid tribbers) are unable to include all who are members of the body of Christ, with the rapture and the wedding feast union to Christ in their theory.

It seems they selectively exclude, those who obviouly are members of the church, the body of Chrisr by placing the rapture before the signs and time appointed.

No brother I said I didnt know if the woman or manchild are the church...i said i hope the church is part of one or the other...if not... the church may go trough the Great trib to do exploits...for Daniel says the saints will turn many to righteousness at this time..., I gave a lot of concrete scripture to show my point, no attempt at deception involved.
I dont use Matthew to interpret Matthew or the Book of Revelation to interpret the Book of Revelation unless I need to. There are all kinds of prophetic scripture in the OT for the end times, if you dont use them, you will miss it.

And all because rather then accepting what is written, just as it is written, they twist, stretch, and mis interpret words, written for their own edification.

As you can see go so far to interpret apostasy for rapture....

Is that deception or what??

If a man gives you meat, try not to choke on it

God bless

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

AMEN Brother! I think this is a good way to proceed. The topic being discussed is not a Salvation issue, and I'm comfortable in saying that Petro, 2nd Timothy, and you are all Brothers in Christ. I would hope you think the same of me.

I've enjoyed studying all sides of the issue, but I would quickly admit that it is a very difficult study and extremely time consuming. I'm not complaining because I enjoy studying the Holy Bible.

I would have an easy answer to why I want to do more study about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There is more truth there every time I study, and I want more truth. This study takes you all over the Holy Bible, and you can't help but see other issues that are not related to the Rapture, rather to other end-times topics. Some might call them companion topics. Regardless, a study of the end-times is fascinating.

My problem is trying to organize my study in a way that I can remember or revisit everything I studied last week or a month ago.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

Brother, I have studied your posts and think that I understand the basis for many of your thoughts. Our disagreement on this matter will not have anything to do with either of us being IN JESUS or not.

We can simply agree to disagree and enjoy being Brothers in Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

posted by aj,

No brother I said I didnt know if the woman or manchild are the church...i said i hope the church is part of one or the other...if not... the church may go trough the Great trib to do exploits...

aj,

Sorry, I don't see, where you said this, but if you meant to say it, I never gathered it that way.

for Daniel says the saints will turn many to righteousness at this time...,

Jesus when praying to the father, said this;


Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: ..........................  (John 17:1-21)

I have taken the time to emboldened key words in the passage.

There is really no need to quote Him further, since He has said everything there needs to be said about those who will be raptured, right here in these verses.

Your attention is invited to verse 21, .....Notice who the "they" are.

They are ONE in both the Father and the Son, and they are His members, the Body of believing Saints, who will be kept from the evil, vs 15, and HE shall raise them up at the last day, vs 2 and Jhn 10:28.

Today by the word of the faithful testimony of the Jesus, many are made righteous because they have been given faith of Jesus, to believe yet those who testify, as well as those who believe die a natural or other type of death or are killed for their faith, but that doesn't matter they (and God knows who they are, whom He has given to Jesus) will ALL be raised at Jesus Second Coming.

The English word Coming in reference to the "Coming of the Lord" is translated 'Advent' in the Latin, and originates as 'Parousia' in the original Greek. There is no distinction between Advent and Parousia because they are used to represent the same thing.

The Greek wordcoming from 1 Thes. 4:15... is translated in each of the following, thusly;

GREEK
"touto gar umin legomen en logw kuriou oti hmeiV oi zwnteV oi perileipomenoi eiV thn Parousian tou kuriou ou mh fqaswmen touV koimhqentaV"

ENGLISH
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

LATIN
"hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in Adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt"



At 2 Thessalonians 2:1 the same word is translated in the three languages as follows;

GREEK
"erwtwmen de umaV adelfoi uper thV ParousiaV tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou kai hmwn episunagwghV ep auton"


ENGLISH
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (parousia/advent) Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

LATIN
"rogamus autem vos fratres per Adventum Domini nostri Iesu Christi et nostrae congregationis in ipsum"



At Matthew 24:3 : the same word is once again transalted; from the Greek;

GREEK
"kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV eipe hmin pote tauta estai kai ti to shmeion thV shV ParousiaV kai thV sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV"


ENGLISH
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (parousia/advent) Coming, and of the end of the world?"

LATIN
"sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum Adventus tui "et consummationis saeculi"

Cont'd..........................

[Petro]

At Mat 24:27, the same word;

GREEK
"wsper gar h astraph exercetai apo anatolwn kai fainetai ewV dusmwn outwV estai kai h Parousia tou uiou tou anqrwpou"

ENGLISH
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Son of man be.

LATIN
"sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et Adventus Filii hominis"

Now the verses that I have given you which contain the word coming, Advent and Parousia are clearly, referring to the one and only Second Coming of the Lord, now consider these following verses:

In English:
1Thess 4
15 ........we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord.........

1Thess 4
17 .....we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



According to these two verses the coming in verse 15 is based on the Greek word Parousia which is also used to describe the Lord's Second Coming in Matthew 24.

Pretribulationists adamantly say that "Second Advent" is a separate event from the rapture and that we should not confuse the rapture with the Second Coming of the Lord - the Second Advent.

Mid Trbulationists thou they have the order correct, have the timing wrong, this disagrees with scripture, because it is before the time appointed, by making the rapture occur before the end of the great tribulation, they leave many Christian members of the body of Christ out of the Blessed Hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)



But just by looking at 1Thes 4:15 & 17 in English, one can  clearly see it refers to the rapture occuring at His Second Coming.

Now consider the Greek and the Latin, in these verses, again:

Note:  (I will only post the pertinent words)

Greek:
1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Parousia..

1Thes 4:17 .......we which are alive and remain shall be Harpadzo.......

Latin:
1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Adventum..

1Thes 4:17 ........we which are alive and remain shall be
Rapiemur..

So what can be learned from this??


The Second Coming (or Advent or Parousia) occurs at the same time as the (Rapiemur or Harpazo or "rapture")

We can understand in a logical sequential order the line of thought that Paul began in 1Thes 4:15 which says;


 .............we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord..........

which includes 1Thes 4:17 which then says;


......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up[raptured together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is only one Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, at His Coming Christians will be raptured. together with the resurrection of those who sleep in Him, it  happens at the Last Trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) which is  defined in the Book of Revelation as the Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:15).

This means that Christians (unless, of course one dies) must be here for the previous six Trumpets and that means the Antichrist comes first before Jesus and the rapture event.

Notice;

2Thes 2,

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (which is a parallel passage to 1Thes. 4:17)
2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

 
Paul's own words devastate any rapture theory which comes before , the Great  Apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed.

What I have pointed out is a clear reference to the rapture occuring at the Second Coming of the Lord and not in any "secret rapture" or "mid point rapture" which excludes some members of the church.

I gave a lot of concrete scripture to show my point, no attempt at deception involved.
I dont use Matthew to interpret Matthew or the Book of Revelation to interpret the Book of Revelation unless I need to. There are all kinds of prophetic scripture in the OT for the end times, if you dont use them, you will miss it.

aj,

Sorry, I don't see, where you said this either, your statements seem to be generalized, but thats ok, I have given you some meat to consider.


Praise Him, and God Bless you, keep studying, no one can go wrong doing it.

Most importantly, pray for wisdom and understanding, that is the key.

Blessings,
Petro

[AJ]

Amen Brother...

Most importantly, pray for wisdom and understanding, that is the key.

Im on it   Praise the lord and God bless