Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[Petro]

Left Coast,

Because of time constraints, I could have better replied to this portion of your post, and I will do so, now, by emboldening the words which I should have chosen that would have better conveyed the point I was trying to make.

posted by Petro
On post #33 you said,"We can know see, the work of God, in sinners produces belief in Christ, because that person has believed the Word that Christ has spoken from the Father (Deut 18:18-19), and this work is granted freely by God"

left coast, replied at #86 Sept 18,03;
It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.

And my modified answer to this, is as follows from reply #87;

Actually you are unable to discern the truths, that I exposed for you at these words;  The man that trusts (Jhn 3:31-36) the words Jesus spoke believes God, and the man that believes God's words, which Jesus spoke in the name of the Father, has the Father revealed to Him, by the Son, who upon granting confession and repentance of sin, gives that man to the Son, that the Son might give him, Eternal Life and the sealing or Baptism withthe Holy Spirit (Jhn 1:33). And it isn't until this occurs, that anyone can claim to having been saved.

Man trust's the words whom Jesus spoke in the name of God the Father first, this is why the scriptures say;

Eph 1
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,.........................(see below for the rest of this verse)

, then he repents and confesses his sin of unbelief, it is then that God gives the Faith to believe in Jesus (Phil 1:29), which man could never do on His own before this Work is done in this heart, only then, when that gift of Faith which is to believe on Jesus, can Jesus do His portion which is to seal the individual with the Holy Spirit, which is the same as being baptized into the Body of Christ.

As you can see, trusting Jesus, amounts to believing GOD the father, and ask yourself what is it, that the sinner believes about the father??

The answer is His words, "That He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

And, That He is longsuffering, and that His goodness is what leads men to repentance. (Rom 2:4) and, since the word states emphatically, that man believes with his heart unto righteousness, and confesses with his mouth unto salvation (Rom 10:10), it is clear at this verse, that repentance, confession precede salvation.

This is in direct contradiction to your teaching, the belief, follows salvation.

The next point which I would like to clearify, since I could have articulated it more perfectly to keep you from getting further confused at this point is that verse on which you hang your theology.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The commandment referenced at the first portion of the verse, is God the Fathers commandment to believe, ( and I understand this point clearly, which you have made over and over), the question which needs to be asked is;

 "Believe", what??

This command is tied to the words, the father spoke, on the day, Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan by John, when,

"behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

Why hear Him??  Here is the answer, The Lord God said;

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus said;

Mk 1
14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The Apostle Paul, said this concerning the Gosple of God, at:

Rom 1
Rom 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3  Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

The commandment to believe, as I have pointed out to you, is given as a gift by God to believe the Gosple of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord no man is able to believe, unless it is first given to him to believe, (Phil 1:29) this is done in accordance with (Eph 2:8-9),

Now I want you carefully consider this following point, which is the crux of the matter affecting your gopsle;

Please turn to Eph 1 and the rest of verse 13; (I quoted the first portion above)

Read it carefully;

13  ..........................trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is another verse that totally destroys your teaching, that men are saved (sealed with the Holy Spirit) before they believe the Gosple of God.

I trust God will grant you grace to believe the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

The remainder of the verse 1 Jhn 3:23, is a New Commandment Jesus, gave His disciples (this pertains to us) (Jhn 13:34)

Blessings,

Petro






 

[Petro]

Petro I forgot to add the Calvinist foundation from the same website as above:
http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm#01
Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the word "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the Five Points of Arminianism":
1. "T" = TOTAL DEPRAVITY - The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.
2. "U" = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free will" of the Creator alone.
3. "L" = LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to Him by the Father in eternity past. In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non elect) will be lost.
4. "I" = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot be obstructed. They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
5. "P" = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process. The saints will persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

Notice point 4:
They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
And point 5:
salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process.

Nothing to do with the process, not believing, not confessing, not repenting, NOTHING.

Left Coast,

You amaze me at every turn, Calvary Chapel, is not Calvinistic in its teachings they are Armenians, and futhermore, I would point out there error on the point of "Unconditional Election, it contradicts your other quote from your post # 82 from J.I. Packer from the modernrefoemation website.

You need to get your facts correct, I would suggest you visit a site which posts the Westminister Confession or Belgic Confessi9on to familiarize yourself with exactly what "Unconditional Election" means to Calvinists, afterall this is where the point was initially articulated and defined.

It is clear from what you post you yourself don't understand what this article really expounds.

But this matters little to me since I am not a calvinist, as I am convinced there is some truth to both sides of the argument, I simply allow the scriptures to settle the arguments for me;

for instance;

Item #4  Irrestible Grace - It is clear that scripture state, all those whom God has "predestinated" to be conformed to the image of His Son, will be conformed, in the end, and there will not be one lacking (Rom 8:29-30), and as for the "elect" it is God who justifieth them and Christ died for them, and makes intercession for them day and night against the accusations of the evil one. (Rom 8:33-35), and in the end He shall gather ALL (everylast one of) the ELECT. (Mk 13:26-27)

As for Item #5 Preserverance of the Saints - It is not the saints themselves that preservere, but the Holy Spirit working in them , for the scripture tells us, He works in them to "will and to do of His good pleasure"(Phil 2:13) and that the work He began in them He will accomplish it until the Day of Christ. (Phil 1:6), if it wasn't for the God the Holy Spirit, we would be like sheep without a shepherd.

So, as you can see, it matters little to me, what Armenians or Calvinsts teach, I believe the scripturtes, and if any of their points agree with scripture then I accept their teaching.

I reject your teaching outright, that man is saved before he comes to believe in the Word of God.

This teaching is unscriptural, period.

PS  The TULIP, has never been called The five points of Armenianism, it has always been reffered to as The five Points of Calvinism.

The Armenian document was first known as the Remonstrance (protest) and later on became known as the Five Articles of Faith. The ideas in this document were not new, of course; they had been around for over a thousand years. The Five Articles of Faith, however, did consolidate these ideas into a format that was concise and understandable.

The Council of Dort, rejected the Five Articles of Faith as heretical, but as you have stated, these churches who have adhered unto them throughout the centuries still hold them to be the gospel truth.

Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
I am afraid that you have forgotten my answer to your 'Left Coast Crushing' verse, Eph. 1:13.
I answered it once, you accused me of ignoring it. So I repeated my answer. I can only conclude you either didn’t actually read it or else you did not understand. I suspect the latter since you have shown that you understand little of what I have said.
I’ll try one more time.

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Those four words, after that ye believed, come from one Greek word.
The word pisteuo.
It appears 248 times in the bible but only once as those four words.
Usually it is translated believe, believed and believing are also common.
Young’s Literal Translation can help to shed some light.

Ephesians 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

None of the bible translations are perfect. I believe the King James is the best, but there are times when the translators could have done a better job. This is one of those verses.
You have rightly pointed out that we must hear. It is God that gives us the ears to hear. He does that when He gives us a new heart. He does that when He saves us.
The reason why you run into problems with your gospel is because you require people to do something. I’ve mentioned many time babies can’t believe, repent, or confess. But too much focus has been put on the baby part of that. If a baby can’t do it then there are people who couldn’t do it either. Brain damaged adults would often have similar restrictions. Because not everyone can do these things---it is a work. And as you know salvation is by Grace not works.
The question is who would believe? We are spiritually dead. The dead cannot believe. It is only when we are made alive that we can hear and believe. There are some teachers that say our salvation happens when God gives us a resurrected spiritual body. I am beginning to lean in that direction. I think this idea might confuse you too much.

What I don’t understand is why is it so hard for you to accept that our salvation is completely Gods work, and we have nothing to contribute.

Jeremiah 24:7  And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

[Left Coast]

Petro
Frustrating as it is I do enjoy these little chats.
My job often puts me on the road and that is coming up soon.
Calvary Chapel claims neither, but I agree they are more Arminian. I walked out of their service it was so off. However I could have gotten that information elsewhere I just didn’t feel like searching any more.
I am afraid as usual you didn’t understand Mr. Packer

Interview
J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election
Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?

It is an interview. The Interviewer was asking Mr. Packer the question. It isn’t his belief, Next he answers the question.

He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last.

The five points of Calvinism was a response to the five points of Arminianism. They developed these Five points came out of the Canon’s of the Council of Dort in 1618. Again you couldn’t comprehend. Your quote:

PS The TULIP, has never been called The five points of Armenianism, it has always been reffered to as The five Points of Calvinism.

What I took from their web site and posted:

Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the word "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the Five Points of Arminianism":

Notice it says those in the reformed tradition ANSWERED the teachings of Arminius.
I have to go to bed then out of town for a couple of days.

[Petro]

Left Coast,

You ask;

What I don't understand is why is it so hard for you to accept that our salvation is completely Gods work, and we have nothing to contribute.

That is not really what you cannot understand, what you cannot understand is why, we do not believe your interpretation of how God executes HisWork?; the answer is simple, We who belong to Christ hear His voice, a stranger will WE not follow, but will flee from him: for WE know not the voice of strangers. (Jhn 10:5)

You pretend to know how God saves individuals, while teaching another gosple. Whether this is intentional or because of ignorance, in not knowing what the Gospel of God teaches,  I am uncertain, but I can assure you, the Gospel as taught by Jesus, does not square up with what you say.

You say;..... People must be saved first, and then He gives them the wherewithall to  believe. (your reply#54)

I have been sharing with you, why this is not so, here is another scripture which disagrees with you;

Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables, so that hearing the might not hear, and seeing they might not see,. (Lk 8:10b)

But unto us (believers) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: (Lk 8:10a)

It is clear you do not know this mystery, of how people come to be saved............

While explaining the parable of the sower and the seed to His disciples at Lk 8:4-18, at vs 9,  they asked Him; " What might this parable be?" (vs 9), and He answered them;

10  ...............Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16  No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17  For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18  Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Again, verse 12, contradicts your teaching that men, must first be saved in order to come to faith.

And remember this is Jesus speaking.........so how is it you contradict Him and think nothing of it..

It is because you do not undertsand, that the word of truth, sanctifies those whom God the Holy Spirit draws to the truth.

To sanctify is defined as to set apart by God or for Gods use(Gen 2:3), it can be anything that is dedicated and for Gods use; and it is He who consecrates, separates or sets aside the person or thing which is devoted as such, man does not play a part in this separation, he can devote himself, but clearly sanctification is Gods pejorative, men woukld never know what is consecrated were it not for the word of God.

Sanctification is the process (Col 3:1-17, notice the words "IF YOU BE..") which God uses to make a person whole in Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:29-31) it is part of Gods will and plan, note; and it is a mystery.,

Jesus even said; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,  ..................... Jhn10:36

I pointed out your error, and where it begins.  It is at this teaching you believe;

You said at reply #54

I do not think we can believe until after God has begun His work in us. As soon as He starts His work we are saved. He never fails.
[end of quote]

Nothing could be further from the truth. God does begin a work in unbelievers, while they are dead in sin and tresspass, this is why the scriptures say;  at Jhn 17:1-21 and at verses Jesus says;

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.  
20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Please note that those that sanctified are sanctified through the truth, it doesn't mean they are saved, it means they have been set aside by the Holy Spirit to hear and believe the truth, of the word of God the end result is that they might believe so they may be SAVED,

Now,  put this together with the following verse and we see, that the truth of Gods word, is what keeps those who have been sanctified until Faith to  believe in Christ is given by God.  

2 Th 2
13  God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This is the work which the Spirit begins and ends when Faith to believe in Jesus is given (Phil 1:29)

It is clear you do not understand this, from the reply you gave, when I posted these verses which point this principle out, In the negative, please listen again;
 
1 Cor 7
12  But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15  But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:


Those who trust in Christ after they hear the Word of truth, are given MORE hearing to hear to believe the same Word of Truth, it is this process of sanctification that ultimately breaks down their resistance to the Gospel of God, and when they (repent and confess) obey the truth, they purify their souls (1 Pet 1:22) , it is then, they are able to believe with commitment since God gives them FAITH, to believe what they could not believe before, note the verse;

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Tim 1:12)

Continued..............

[Petro]

Your conclusion is wrong, man must repent, confess, believe (all these are found in obedience to the commandment) which makes it possible to be sealed by the Spirit of Promise in order to be considered saved.

You simply arrive at your conclusion, because you cannot grasp that, those whom God sanctifies
through the truth to believe in the truth, doesn't have anything to do with salvation of the individual (since believing is the means of Salavtion) whom is sanctified as he is still complete helpless, you do rightfully conclude that salvation is a work of God ( I give you credit for that, and that it is all a work of God, not man),but, in the end, but you get ahead of yourself, by concluding one is saved first then believes.

The truth will always be the truth, no matter who believes it or not,........this is the truth..

If one who has been sanctified throught the truth, decides not to trust the truth, he can walk away from it, it will not change the truth, just as the unbelieving husband or wife, may leave, they are not under obligation to continue, as they have not committed anyhting to the process as yet. God knows the heart.

Heb 6:4-6, gives us a glimpse into such and individual, unfortunately, for the person that does this, they can never be brought back to repentance again, since they have rejected the very truth with which they were sanctified to hear (yes, of course God gives the hearing to hear) and they have despised the blood that sanctified them. Heb 10:29, makes this perfectly clear. Allow to post the verse;

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

reply #54
Those four words that you consider so important, after that ye believed, come from one Greek word, pisteuo. It appears 248 times in the bible but only once with those four words.

Nevertheless, it is written..that you might believe.. And besides you are repeating yourself, only last time you qualified this statement by stating;

posted by left coast as reply #54
I have never spent a lot of time on this particular verse so I am not going to claim a perfect understanding.

I am sure you still cannot claim a perfect understanding of this..it has only been a few days since you made the first statement.

Even I can see that, your answer of which you are not sure of, is a process, unfortunately according to your explanation, it is backwards.

I encourage you to take time out, as Paul the Apostle did,  after His Salvation on the road to Damascus, he said he went into Arabia and returned to Damascus and then after three years returned to Jerusalem, no doubt it took him this time to collect his thoughts and get his theology right, since he came preaching the risen Christ with a fervor.
It shouldn't take that long, though..

Blessings

Petro

[ollie]

There has always been this debate that election/predestination/foreknowledge means God picked out some for heaven and others fpr perdition before they were ever born.

I was just wondewring if, while God elected some, "ALL" who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Or restated, election does not mean rejection of anyone because He has said that He is not willing that any should perish.

aw

God elects, predestines, chooses, through His word. One hears, one believes, one is elected, predestined, chosen.

[Petro]

There has always been this debate that election/predestination/foreknowledge means God picked out some for heaven and others fpr perdition before they were ever born.

I was just wondewring if, while God elected some, "ALL" who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Or restated, election does not mean rejection of anyone because He has said that He is not willing that any should perish.

aw

God elects, predestines, chooses, through His word. One hears, one believes, one is elected, predestined, chosen.

Amen  Ollie,

You said;

One hears, one believes, one is elected, predestined, chosen.

You hit the nail on the head, because it is God who gives to hear, to believe, elects, predestined and chooses as you said.

The whole matter begins with trusting the word of God whom Jesus and His disciples began spreading from Jerusalem, which will end when it is carried out into the uttermost parts of the earth.

Athiests do not trust nor, much less believe the word of God, but one must place a certain trust in it, before God gives hearing to hear, and believing, to believe Him.

In other words, one must trust first then believe, the word of God, then He gives Faith to believe in Jesus to the saving of the soul, not before.

God Bless you,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
Why  is it so hard for you to comprehend.
When I showed you what I believed you claim it comes out of my own mind.
So I showed you others that believe as I do.
And still you make the same accusation.

I told you John the Baptist was saved while in the womb.
You claimed I was totally lost.
So I very slowly copied what C.H. Spurgeon said in his sermon, Infant Salvation, saying the same thing.
I am a very slow and very clumsy hunt and peck typist. I have to put it on a word processor to check my spelling. If there were any errors it was because of my poor typing. Basically you accuse me of not being trustworthy and demanded where to find my sources. You could have used Google or some other search site and typed in ‘Infant Salvation’ yourself but I did it for you, and to my surprise I found the sermon. I wish I had done that in the first place it is defiantly faster to copy and paste than it is to type for me.
You are so puffed up with pride that you have never acknowledged that the idea that John the Baptist was saved while still in the womb WAS NOT MY IDEA. You said I misquoted him, I DID NOT. You found where Spurgeon used the word ‘Mysterious’ and you used that to support your idea we cannot know if babies are saved, IT DID NOT support you. Spurgeon clearly says they are.  
What you should have noted was that Spurgeon, like many earlier Calvinists, thought that ALL infants were saved. He was wrong on this. That does not mean everything he said was wrong. He, like all of us, is a mortal man. He came to his understanding with bible study, and as time marches on we build on those studies. Many felt the bible was silent on the ‘heathen’ babies. But God in his time reveals more information to us. And so we understand now that some babies are unsaved.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

It is God that is executing the judgment in Deuteronomy 32.
Babies are in need of a savior.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

You can have no salvation for babies with your false gospel. Because it comes out of your own mind.
You claim that it is my own interpretation of scripture, yet I have given you several bible teachers that teach the same. I can’t recall you coming up with any that teach what you teach.
From the website modernreformation.org, I quoted J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election:

He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last.

Yet you thought Mr. Packers belief was in the question he was asked:

Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?  

Once again because of your pride - no acknowledgement of your error.
You want to claim that you cannot be born again unless you contribute to it. Again even though I had never read Dr. O. Palmer Robertson before I spent some time searching for the support for that same teaching that I have been taught. Just as you can contribute nothing to your first birth there is nothing you can contribute to your second.

Dr. Robertson:
Think for a moment about your first birth. What did you do to cause yourself to be born the first time? What part did you play in causing yourself to be conceived in your mother's womb?
You did absolutely nothing! Like every other person who has ever lived, you did absolutely nothing to cause your first birth. No person who has ever lived on this earth has caused himself to be conceived in his mother's womb, or be born of her. It is a complete impossibility.
The same principle is at work every time someone is "born again." Most people totally misunderstand this teaching of Jesus. They think Jesus is telling Nicodemus what he must do if he decides that he wants to be born again. They conclude that Jesus teaches that if a person believes in Him, then he will be born again.
But that understanding of Jesus' words is totally wrong. Jesus does not tell this man what he must do to be born again. For Jesus knew that a person can do nothing to cause himself to be born again. This fact is plainly taught in one of the first verses of John's gospel, which says that the children of God were "born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God" (John 1:13). The teaching is plain. People are not born again to be children of God by human decision. Instead, it is of God and altogether of God that a person is born from heaven to be a child of God.

You, as usual, you completely misunderstood the lesson. Since Nicodemus was alive you thought he could contribute to his birth. GOD CHOOSES HIS WORDS VERY CAREFULLY. He used birth as an example because it shows we have nothing to contribute.
You are now starting to understand what I believe, but you think it comes out of my mind. You have a great deal of difficulty comprehending what I say and seem to be oblivious to the fact that many great teachers teach the same. So you continue to insult and judge, but I have been patient with you because there was a time when I also was so proud.
You have had tremendous difficulty understanding what I say, I have told you I am red green color blind yet when you address me you use red letters. You misunderstand what Spurgeon says, what Packer says, what Robertson says, what Arminianism is what Calvinism is, and what the bible teaches.
You are lost. I don’t know if you are saved, but you are wandering around with so much pride you can’t seem to see the truth.
There are those that as God draws them they begin to understand and believe. But there are others that God just saves, one minute they are wicked beyond belief the next they are a child of God.
John Newton was one example:

But God intervened in Newton's life and got his attention through a violent storm. The gale was so severe that all the livestock were washed overboard and the crew tied themselves to the ship to keep from being swept overboard. As he was attempting to steer the ship through the violent storm, he experienced what he was to refer to later as his "great deliverance." He recorded in his journal that when all seemed lost and the ship would surely sink, he exclaimed, "Lord, have mercy upon us." Later in his cabin he reflected on what he had said and began to believe that God had addressed him through the storm and that grace had begun to work for him. For the rest of his life he observed the anniversary of May 10, 1748 as the day of his conversion, a day of humiliation in which he subjected his will to a higher power.
 
Notice that Newton did not go through a period of hearing, believing, and confessing. He marked the date as the day of his CONVERSION.
Think of the paralyzed man in Mark. He was carried by his friends to Jesus to heal him of his paralysis. He didn’t have any reason to know that Jesus was the savior. He saw Jesus as a healer. What did Jesus do? He saved him THEN He healed him.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

To be continued.....

[Left Coast]

the rest:

From you Petro:

Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables, so that hearing the might not hear, and seeing they might not see,. (Lk 8:10b)

But unto us (believers) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: (Lk 8:10a)

It is clear you do not know this mystery, of how people come to be saved.........…

Ditto right back at ya.

Being born again is a parable, for the change He makes in us that gives us the ability to hear, believe, repent, and confess. We can do none of those things until we are born again, given a new heart, had our heart circumcised, been created a new creature in Christ Jesus, etc.
You have a salvation plan that is only available to people who are developed enough to accomplish. Gods salvation plan is available to all He chooses.
ALL ages, ALL intelligence levels, ALL peoples, it is not limited as yours is.  
Sanctified does not mean saved:

1 Corinthians 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

All sorts of believing people have spouses that are not saved yet by Gods word they are sanctified. It does not mean they will become saved for most do not.
While it is true that such a spouse can become saved BY GODS ACTION they are not saved simply because the word is repeated again and again.
Yes God uses His word, and yes Hearing is necessary, but where you have gone astray is when you don’t realize that it is GOD that gives us the understanding by changing us. That change cannot be refused or altered.
That change is salvation.
John Bunyan claimed we were saved before we were born. Then we were converted. He recognized that God cannot fail.
You say:

Your conclusion is wrong, man must repent, confess, believe (all these are found in obedience to the commandment) which makes it possible to be sealed by the Spirit of Promise in order to be considered saved.

This salvation plan of yours is not available to babies thus it is FALSE.
God does not have a salvation plan in which babies are not saved.
YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THIS FUNDEMENTAL FLAW IN YOUR TEACHING. “We cannot know” as you like to put it is a cop out for the flaw that exists in your gospel.
Even if babies were saved in some other manner, and they are not, because babies can not do YOUR requirements it is thus a WORKS Gospel.
Where did you ever get such an idea like you have any way?
The point with the word ‘pisteuo’ being translated this one time the way in which it was, is most likely it was mistranslated. The translators did a very good job but they were human.
It could easily been translated ‘believing’ that word would also fulfill the tense that was required by the Greek.
Or it could very likely have been proper to translate it as it was done in Young’s Literal Translation:

Ephesians 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

When you read it this way, which is a very proper translation, you can begin to understand what was meant.
When God gives us the ears to hear, by saving us, the gospel we are able to believe.

This is harmonious with verse 11:

Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The entire work is by his will not ours as you seem to want to do.
No true student of the bible would EVER claim to have a perfect understanding of the bible. Only the very proud make such a claim.
If you want to claim that you must believe and confess and repent to become saved go ahead and do that but don’t claim to be a Calvinist because you are not.

Let me try one more time to lay it out for you.

Man is spiritually dead. We are dead in trespasses and sins. The dead don’t hear, see, think, or in any way do any thing. God must give us life, this is called born again. That is how we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear the gospel.
God uses Lazarus as a parable to explain this.
Lazarus was in the grave 4 days, he stunk.
Jesus commanded him to come out, and he did.
Could he hear? No! He was dead.
Could he believe? No! He was dead.
Could he confess? No! He was dead.  
Could he repent? No! He was dead.
In like manner God calls us out and we cannot refuse. When He calls He will not fail we are saved.

Where many fail is by isolating scripture. When John the Baptist saw Jesus and exclaimed, behold the Lamb of God, we knew he didn’t think Jesus was an animal because we have more scripture to explain it.
The command to believe and the command to circumcise our hearts are the same and we can do neither.
But God gives companion verses.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We can’t cut the sin nature out of our heart. Only God can do that, so he gives us the solution:  

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This next verse is important to you, but it needs the companion verse.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


The companion verse:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Notice that it is God that does the work.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sounds like all we need to do is believe. But we’re spiritually dead. We can’t believe.
This is similar to the commandments in the old testament telling Israel if they don’t sin they will have eternal life. We can’t do it.
So the companion verse.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Again Gods work.
Freewill believers often look at:

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You haven’t used this verse. I think one of the reasons I have hope for you is because you know that we can’t receive him.
Generally it is said that Christ died for everyone and all we have to do is receive the free gift. But this verse also has a companion verse.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Yes it is Gods action that we receive Christ.

Finally I keep hammering this home.
It is Gods Commandment to believe.
WE ARE ONLY ABLE TO KEEP GODS COMMANDMENTS IN OUR HEART AFTER HE HAS TAKEN OUT THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVEN US A HEART OF FLESH.


James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[Allinall]

Hey Guys!

Isn't it wonderful to be saved and to know that God chose us, loves us, died for us, and made this wonder possible?  

[ollie]

I do believe in predestination, however, because Revelations was written. There are certain things that are simply going to happen and we cannot alter prophecy. God knows the heart of every man and as Jesus explains in the gospel of John, He cannot come into the hearts of those who will not understand. God has definite reasons for hardening some people's hearts. If He sent the Holy Spirit into everyone's heart, then the world couldn't see the depth of sin, and therefore we wouldn't understand the depth of Grace.

When Adam and Eve transgressed God; God asked them what they had done. If God had predestined or preordained would He ask such a question? Would He not know since He ordained and destined their disobedience?

 Genesis3:9.  And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
 10.  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
 11.  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
 12.  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
 13.  And: the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
 14.  And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Petro]

Finally I keep hammering this home.
It is Gods Commandment to believe.

Lefts Coast

You sound like a broken record, Bro, this is not the only command God gave man. God commandeth all men every where to repent.... Acts 17:30

You are so confused you don't know what Spurgeon said, and what I have written for you.

God gives hearing to hear His  Word , faith to trust and believe, and everything else men need to come to Jesus by faith, that they might receive the gift of eternal life, and He does it, for those whom he did foreknow (Rom 8:29-30) while they are dead in sin and trespass, because Jesus Christ died for us while we were yet sinners,(Rom 5:8-10)  and we are saved by His life, which is our HOPE.

We who are saved speak boldly, claiming salvation (because we believe Gods Word), as though we possess it presently, but in reality we possess the first fruits of our salvation which if the Spirit of God, which is the earnest of our inheritance waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)

So we are actually saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Rom 8:24-25)

It seeems to me you build your doctrine on two verses, 1 Jhn 3:23 and James 2:19 is the other one.

The natural man who can receive nothing from God, nor understand anything, he can trust the Word of God and  repent of their sin of unbelief, when God the Spirit works in the drawing of that man to the truth;  what is the truth??

That we are all sinners, are dead in sin, and those who are willing are given hearing to hear the Gospel;

2 Cor 15
1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Note the sequence of how Cornelius and his family were saved, they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were Baptized with the Holy Gohst.

The full account is found on Acts 10:1-48.

Note; Verses 46 and 47; They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.  Now ask your self what did they say, that caused Peter and them which came with him, to be astonished (vs 45) and recognize that they had received the Holy Spirit.

In their speaking with tongues magnifying God, they understood perfectly well that Cornelius and the others had come to perfect FAITH in Jesus Christ.[/b]

How do I know this, you might ask; the scripture tells me;

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The scriptures tell us Cornelius was a devote man in the faith of the Jews, the jews did not believe in Jesus, so it was in the hearing of what Peter and these heard that convinced them that Cornilius was praising our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

But getting back to this foolish, doctrine, that a man must first be saved, before he can believe.

The next chapter Acts 11, sheds light on this matter, may I call your attention to, these passages whereby Peter upon his return to Jerusalem, "rehearses the whole matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,"

5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8  But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9  But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10  And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11  And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12  And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13  And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14  Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Now read this next verse;

18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It is clear Cornelius herein was granted repentance, before the were baptized with the Holy Spirit, read on;

This very significant in establishing, the truth of this matter, since verses 15,16 and 17, Peter states that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household (them) as on us at the beginning.

At the begining of what??  The answer is found in verse 16,

"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."  This is what produces the begining of a new life.............. "The flesh profits nothing it is the Spirit which giveth Life" (Jhn 6:63)

A new life in Christ,

2 Cor 5
17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

If this was the only place where Peter reiterates the story of Cornelius, we might not totally be able to undertsand the whole teaching, but fortunately the Holy Spirit caused the Council at Jerusalen to be written wherein Peter again testifies a second time what occured when Cornelius and his household came to a new life in Christ.

Acts 15
6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

(This same Peter spaeks about this very matter, at 1 Pet 1:18-23)  Note verse 23, The new birth follows FAITH in Christ. (vs 21)

10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


for this is the point Peter makes, that just as God did unto us (vs , the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.,......... now follows the next verse;

continued***********************

[Petro]

continued for the left coast***************

9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.;

 at 1 Pet 1:22  Peter says "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth............"

Obeying the truth produced a purified soul, a purified soul only comes through the cleansing work of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.   Note verse 23;

23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Since God Commands all men every where to repent, those who obey, do so because they have trusted His Word spoken by Jesus, it is these whom God Saves, by the washing of regeneration, and rtenewing of the Holy Gohst (Titus 3:3)

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

I have no idea why you isolate this verse, as thou to prove God is not able or willing to give hearing to sinners, unless they are saved first. It seems to me..You attempt to limit God, by claiming He can't work in the hearts of men unless He saves them first..this is nonsense.

If it were True, then everybody would be saved, unless you also reject, that Jesus died for "whosoever will come", you have a mish mash of ArmeniansISM and other teachings in your theology, and it this blending of heretical doctrines that have you so confused you can't make heads or tails of scriptural teaching.

You really,  should read the passage that contains this verse
in its entirety, it says nothing about men being saved before they come to faith.  

I told you the disciples  at Lk 8:10, were given hearing to hear and understand the parables and this itself destroys your presupposition, that men have to be saved to hear or believe, they heard, some believed (see Mat 16:16) and the Spirit didn't come unto them untli after they confessed their unbelief after the death, resurrection and  assumption of Jesus into the heavenlies..........Lk 8:10([/b]

The main point being they received hearing to hear and understand.......parables, unless of course unless you deny this to be true.

How do you explain this??    Peter even goes on to state when recalling the saving of Cornelius as occuring exactly as it happened to them "as at the begining."

WE ARE ONLY ABLE TO KEEP GODS COMMANDMENTS IN OUR HEART AFTER HE HAS TAKEN OUT THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVEN US A HEART OF FLESH.

I already told you I agree with you on this point, keeping the commandments can only be done by those who have the spirit, but keeping them, is not what saves them, they keep Gods commandments because they are saved.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Whats your point, Jesus said,

Jhn 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.


His words are the words of God.
On this note I am going to break it off with you, since it is clear, you desire to twist scripture, to teach something new, I have given you the words of truth,  How that the Gospel is a call to sinners to repent, and trust the words of God, nothing else is required, as God will provide everthing necessary to enter into the great and precious promises of Gods ETERNAL LIFE..and that life is in His only Begotten Son.


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Hey Guys!

Isn't it wonderful to be saved and to know that God chose us, loves us, died for us, and made this wonder possible?  

Allinall,


AMMEENNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!

Petro