Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[Left Coast]

Royo
Gods word is not the English, Spanish, or Russian translations. His word is the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that the original texts were in.
Our translations are very, very good but not perfect.
I am also not a Greek Scholar. But I do use a concordence or two. And I find an interlinear bible is helpful.
If you are wondering about the sabbath change I read a study on it and chose to check it out.
I want nothing more than to be faithful to GODS WORD and if that means I must do a little more footwork so be it.
Don't believe it because I say it check it out. I did just that and I am not a greek scholar.
I only trust Gods word, rarely do I use a concordence to interpret or define a word. For me the best use is to find everywhere else the word in question appears and then compare the various verses to gain an understanding.
An excellent site is http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Under 'search in' find Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT This will give you the greek interlinear.
Type in Matthew 28:1
You will find that sabbath was translated from Strongs number 4521.
Don't search that number instead highlight the greek word that number related to.
Copy and paste it into the search term and it will come out as sabbatwn. You will find it appears 11 times in scripture.
As you look at the verses the Strong's number seperated the Greek from the English.
To find out sabbatwn is plural for sabbath you need a better concordence than Strong's. It took some work but I found it in a Thayers lexicon.
I am only declairing the word of God.
If you believe it is necessary to make a choice then please tell me how a baby can do that.
When Pastors, teachers, and people you trust tell you something enough times you begin to believe it.
I have given verses to check out.
You can believe what you have been taught but I will believe the word of God.

[Royo]

God bless you.   Roy.

[Left Coast]

May He bless you also. LC

[Petro]

Left Coast,

You have some serious errors in your therology, I would backtrack, and start at the beginning, if I were you.  

You really should pray the Spirit give you understanding.

It is clear to me, you take a serious detour, at the verse you keep bringing up.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

I have given a verse to you, which you simply ignore;

That, God commands men to believe is a fact, however, His work in the elect, is that they will hear  Him whom He has sent.  And not only will they hear they will believe, these are promises, to those who are chosen.

Mk 4
 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24  And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God commands men to believe, and equips them to believe, for the purpose that God may be glorified, and that man might know that the Faith with which he believed came NOT from himself, but from God, this is why, Eph 2:8-9, says;

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I never misquoted you at all, you said; at reply #39

"Believing is the result of salvation not the cause."  

This  IS erroneous, Salvation is the cause of the Faith God gives to believe in the finished works of Jesus.

As you can see from Phil1:29, it is given of God to men to believe, for the sake of Jesus, and this belief in Gods Word, produces Salvation.  

And this is God's work, which He produces in every man in which it is given to believe.

Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments" (Jhn 14:15)  Those who believe and love the Lord will keep hus commandments NOT because they must to be saved, but because they are saved.

If God gives men the gift of belief in His Word, by Faith, it stands to reason, babies are saved according to His will also, even though you may not understand how it is, they believe,  

Somehow or other you have a distorted sense of the innate  ability babies possess, if babies are able to recognize and communicate with their own mothers, what makes you think, they cannot believe nor communicate with God.
 
As for John the Bapist, this is the only passage in scripture where we are told  "the babe leaped in her womb;" and the next portion of scripture tells us; "and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" and the only explanation given as to why the babe leaped in Elisabeth 's  womb was because;

44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.  

So, he leaped in the womb "for joy", nothing else is said to make anyone believe he was saved here.

So, you see only by adding to the scriptures can you prove what is not given to understand.

You don't get the idea John the Baptist was saved herein, and there is no other passage in scripture that addresses, the idea he was filled by the Holy Spirit while in his mothers womb, it is only your imagination, that is getting the best of you here.

You need to reconsider your thology, and study the scriptures, after putting aside all your preconceived notions (birds nest, you can't fish with this gob of line, it is a mess), that salvation precedes believing.

Blessings,


Royo,


Although "trust" connotes with the idea of "believing" as used in Eph 1:12, Cor 1:9-10 the word  trust, is mostly associated with placing a confident hope in Christ, without commitment on ones part.

While the word "believe" as used in these key scriptures, is defined to Trust in God with commitment, obedience and faith (Jhn 14:1, Rom 10:9-11, Jas 2:18-20) When God grants repentance , he gives the Faith necessary to believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:39)  One who believes is willing to obey God, to put ones life in His hands, this belief is essential for Eternal Life and Christian Living.  (Jhn 20:31)

So, the choice to trust is the beginning in the road,  to being born again, but that is not the object, since the scriptures tell us our trust, hope and faith is in Jesus Christ, not necessarily to be born again; being "Born Again" is the result of forgiveness of sin and faith in Christ, and having been sealed by the Spirit of God.

Blessing

Petro

[Allinall]

Amen Petro!  Obedience is the hallmark of the believer's life.  It is what God demands of us all as a whole.  As for being a Calvinist...I'm a biblicist.  

Blessings brother!

[Royo]

Again, Petro, my brother, I would agree.
Being born again IS NOT the object. When I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, I understood little about being born again. I just had read His Word, saw I needed salvation, and put my trust in what I had read about Jesus. God had given me the faith to believe what I was reading, then what I needed to trust in Jesus as my Savior.
All this between just me and Him, in my room. I had as yet to try to find a church.
Bless you brother.  Roy.

[Petro]

Again, Petro, my brother, I would agree.
Being born again IS NOT the object. When I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, I understood little about being born again. I just had read His Word, saw I needed salvation, and put my trust in what I had read about Jesus. God had given me the faith to believe what I was reading, then what I needed to trust in Jesus as my Savior.
All this between just me and Him, in my room. I had as yet to try to find a church.
Bless you brother.  Roy.

Actually, I know what you say is true, because my experience was very similar to this.

This truth,  only proves that it is God the Spirit, that does all the work perfectly according to the will of God, in the right sequence, otherwise I know I would have screw it up.

Amen, to you............

And God Bless,

Petro

[Petro]

Amen Petro!  Obedience is the hallmark of the believer's life.  It is what God demands of us all as a whole.  As for being a Calvinist...I'm a biblicist.  

Blessings brother!

Allinall,

BIBLICIST...........OK I like that better....

Blessings to you..also.....


In Christ,

Petro

[aw]

Just a reminder- born again not by the will of man nor of flesh, but of God.

aw

[Petro]

Just a reminder- born again not by the will of man nor of flesh, but of God.

aw

aw

Amen.. to that, here is another one;

1 Pet 2
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
You said I ignored the verse you gave me. What verse are you talking about? I thought you wanted me to answer Ephesians 1:13
Was there another? I did try to answer it in Post 54

Now to say nothing I say matters because of one Greek word is an interesting stand to make.
Those four words that you consider so important, after that ye believed, come from one Greek word, pisteuo. It appears 248 times in the bible but only once with those four words.
I have never spent a lot of time on this particular verse so I am not going to claim a perfect understanding.
Usually it is translated believe, believed and believing are also common.
Young’s literal translation does it this way:

Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Now how do we hear?
Isn’t it because God has opened our understanding. God has to give us the ears to hear.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Proverbs 20:12 ¶ The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

I do not think we can believe until after God has begun His work in us. As soon as He starts His work we are saved. He never fails.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The result of that work is faith, believing, repentance, etc. When the change is made we are sealed.

I hardly think I was silent on the verse. It may not have been the answer you wanted but I did answer it. Was it too wordy or complicated? I would be happy to try and reword it.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying when you said this on post 44.

"an intellectual understanding of what you think the gosple teaches."

Because you included the quotation marks and it was very similar to what I said in post 39

Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus

Was I wrong in assuming you were trying to quote the words above.
Yes, the bible does teach that believing is the result of salvation. It would be impossible for any action on our part to cause salvation because babies could never believe. I don’t know if you have children but if you have ever seen a baby as it is just born you would understand it wouldn’t have the ability to believe. That does not mean that God does not save them He Does. He does it by circumcising the babies heart, he takes the heart of stone out and gives the baby a heart of flesh.
On the other hand God gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear.  
I bought a book of sermons by C.H. Spurgeon. I had never read any of his works before.
I randomly picked a sermon. It was on infant salvation. I have quoted it to you. It wasn’t my idea babies were saved in the womb, Spurgeon believed it too (see reply #37). You said,

You don't get the idea John the Baptist was saved herein, and there is no other passage in scripture that addresses, the idea he was filled by the Holy Spirit while in his mothers womb, it is only your imagination, that is getting the best of you here.

I take it you think Spurgeon’s mind was getting the best of him too.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

First He takes out the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. You are now born again. SAVED

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
 
NOW we can walk in his statutes. We can keep His commandments including the commandment to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Ezekiel 11:19 is salvation
Ezekiel 11:20 is the result.
It is summed up in this verse.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I don’t know why you don’t see.
You suggested I should go back, why would I go back to something that I know now is a lie.
If salvation is based on believing all sorts of people could never believe.
In answer to the verses you gave.
Mark 4 - God has to give us the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

Deuteronomy 29:4  Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Several verses say this but this one also mentions that God gives us the Heart to perceive.
You came real close to it in this piece.

Phil 1
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God commands men to believe, and equips them to believe, for the purpose that God may be glorified, and that man might know that the Faith with which he believed cam,eto from himself, but from God, this is why,

On the verse I would have changed the letters you made bold and added unto you it is given
But on what you said you came so close, that is why I am somewhat surprised at how you have been reacting.

and equips them to believe

, How does he do that? He equips them by giving them a new heart. A heart that can believe. A changed heart makes us into an entirely different kind of a person. That is what it means to be BORN AGAIN.  
We are given the ability to believe by circumcising the heart. Salvation happens then.

As for John the Bapist, this is the only passage in scripture where we are told "the babe leaped in her womb;" and the next portion of scripture tells us; "and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" and the only explanation given as to why the babe leaped in Elisabeth 's womb was because;

Wrong. But I don’t hold it against you, you gave the second verse in your next sentence. I think we need to lighten up.
Is there a greater Joy than salvation? Why does this idea bother you? It didn’t bother Spurgeon.
We also have the example of Jeremiah, also saved in the womb.
I get the impression you want to attack everything I say. I am not your enemy. Read what I have said carefully. We may not be as far apart as you think.

1 Chronicles 29:19  And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

[Royo]

Just curious.

I live on the west coast. My step Dad lives on the east coast.
So where is the left coast?

God be with you. Roy.

[Left Coast]

Look at the map of the USA.
Canada is up top, where's the left coast? Unless your dyslexic.  
I'm in the middle state.  

[Brother Love]

From: Daily Inspirational

WEB SITE
Grace And The Truth
www.graceandthetruth.com

E-Mail GracentheTruth@aol.com
=======================================

SALVATION AND THE HUMAN WILL





Scripture Reading:  Rom 9:15-16; John 1:12-13; 3:16







Dwight Lyman Moody once said that "the whosoever wills are the elect, and whosoever won'ts are the non-elect!"  This is certainly true.  The human will does play an important part in personal salvation.  But the problem which ultimately must be faced when one deals with the sovereignty of God must touch on this matter of what place man's will plays--if any.

Now there are two extremes to avoid.  One is that since God is sovereign, and since man cannot save himself at all, then man has no part at all in salvation.  That is, God will save him without any action on his part.  The other extreme is that God cannot and will not save anyone unless he is willing to be saved.

In between these extremes we believe the truth lies.  It is true that the sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins"  therefore cannot, of himself, take one step toward God and salvation.  It is also true that God has given man a will, and He respects that will.  Yet due to the fact that the depravity of the human nature has also crippled the will, God must first move and work in the sinner to make him willing to be saved!  This is what Christ meant when He said, "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).  This is also what is meant in John 1:12-13:  "But as many as received Him (Christ),  to them gave He power (authority) to become the sons of God (children of God), even to them that believe on His name; which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."  Therefore, as Romans 9:16 states, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."





Hence, how beautiful it all works out.  Of my own will, I did not want God or His salvation (Christ).  But He wooed me and drew me with love and power and gave me the willingness to receive Christ into my life!  Bless the Lord, O my soul!

    "I've found a Friend, oh such a Friend!
    He loved me ere I knew Him;
    He drew me with the cords of love,
    And thus He bound me to Him."  (J.G.    Small)

Pastor Paul Hume

Posted By Brother Love

[Left Coast]

I am sorry Moody was wrong.

John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Now there are two extremes to avoid. One is that since God is sovereign, and since man cannot save himself at all, then man has no part at all in salvation. That is, God will save him without any action on his part. The other extreme is that God cannot and will not save anyone unless he is willing to be saved.

Mr. Hume wants to add our WORK to Gods grace. That is called a Grace + Works Gospel.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So if it is by our freewill then we can boast, we were smarter or more humble some-how better than our brother.

In between these extremes we believe the truth lies. It is true that the sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins" therefore cannot, of himself, take one step toward God and salvation.

Can a dead man hear? Can a dead man speak? Or Think? Or Choose?
The bible gives us the picture of Lazarus.
He was 4 days in the tomb. He stunk. Jesus called out, “Lazarus come forth.” When he came out of the grave did he contribute anything? Did he say, “I hear the Lord I’ll see what He wants me for.” Jesus called and he came forth yet there was NOTHING he could contribute.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
 

It is also true that God has given man a will, and He respects that will.

Where does it say God respects mans will?

"No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

Lets put this verse in it’s context.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice He loses NONE. When God draws you He cannot fail.

Romans 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

How can Mr. Hume quote these verses and not see that it is NOT by our will.

Romans 9:16 states, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The question I ask over and over, How Can A Baby Make Such A Freewill Decision? How Can Those That Have Never Heard Of Christ Come To Him?
The answer I have received is, “______________.”