Would this be sufficient for Salvation?

[darby]

aw, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  it seems like any time anybody else makes a noteworthy point, you plug up your ears with your pinkies and sing "La la la la la la...".  There's no point in debating with you.  

[michael_legna]

A BASIC question is "To whom is that passage being addressed?" The Lord is addressing JEWS concerning, WHAT? Entrance into their KINGDOM. It is not speaking of salvation by grace through faith in His finished work at all! He had not even gone to the Cross at this point and the Church was still a mystery!!!!

You may think that some man made doctrine of dispensationalism allows you to ignore certain parts of the word of God, but I treasure and follow them all.

There is no part of the word of God that does not have application to any and all men at any and all times.

IN THAT DAY- WHAT DAY? The Judgment of the wicked dead? The believer NEVER comes into JUDGMENT/CONDMNATION. (Romans 8:1,2; John 5:24)

Excuse me but you are definitely wrong on this of course the believers are judged.

Look at the sheep and the goats.

The sheep are judged to be on his right hand because they gave him food and drink and shelter (acts of love fulfilling the spirit of the law toward a proper acceptance of the free gift) and what did they get once they were judged - entrance into the kingdom.

This passage neither says that something is required other than FAITH/BELIEVE (Bones) nor does it place requirements upon the maintenance of salvation.

Even if it doesn't (which it does) what about the other 46 I have offered, which you still seem to be ducking?  Just how much of the word of God does your dispensationalism allow you to ignore?  Have you ever done a study to see what percentage you are missing?  Is it 10%?  50%?  95%?  Do you even know?

[aw]

Michael, et.al.,

It is not dispensationalism to ask the question, "WHO is being addressed." Again, and something you refuse to acknowledge, is that the bible comments on itself. Romans 15:8,9 makes it clear that Christ came to the JEWS first to fulfill the promises made to their fathers. Those promises included fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant and the offer of the KINGDOM. Why do you suppose that Jesus said to go "NOT IN THE WAY OF THE GENTILES," but ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL? By your theology, you would have believers follow instructions that even the Lord specifically forbade!!!!!!!

Do you pray that "Your flight be not in winter or on the sabbath day?" Well, do you? The Lord said to do it and thus, by your own admission, if you are not you are being willfully disobedient.

You did not respond the Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24- believers are NEVER judged as to CONDEMNATION. The Believer is judged at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST and you should not that it relates to rewards only. If you do not know that, I will instruct but you will probably reject even though it is as straightforward as it could be.

The Church could not possibly be judged according to how they treated Christ's brethren, the JEWS during the Tribulation. I will agree thaT WE CAN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF VISITING PEOPLE IN JAIL AS ONE EXAMPLE, BUT WE COULD NEVER BE JUDGED FOR CONFDEMNATION BY THAT STANDARD. That makes no sense at all much less having any scriptural basis.

To say I close my ears is also ABSURD! I respond with more scripture and spend more time that either of you preparing a response as indicated by your total lack of anything but OPINIONS!

Come back when you have something meaningfyl to offer and we can have a DISCUSSSION. You even have that wrong by calling it a DEBATE. It is NOT debate, but DISCUSSION and it should be with something other than personal opinions.

Let me know, and I would say brothers, but I am not so sure. Are either of you BORN AGAIN by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone?
aw

[nChrist]

AW SAID:

A BASIC question is "To whom is that passage being addressed?" The Lord is addressing JEWS concerning, WHAT? Entrance into their KINGDOM. It is not speaking of salvation by grace through faith in His finished work at all! He had not even gone to the Cross at this point and the Church was still a mystery!!!!

AMEN BROTHER AW!

The CROSS is the most precious event in human history. Did the Apostles who watched the crucifixion of Jesus Christ understand the significance of our Lord's death at the time? The answer is "NO". Did they understand the significance of Christ's resurrection and the revelation of the Holy Spirit? The answer is "NO". They certainly didn't understand the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Many would make the word "Dispensational" a dirty word, and it might be if someone took it too far. However, when someone considers the speaker, the purpose, the audience, and THE CROSS, that is called rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Love IN Christ,
Tom

[JudgeNot]

The CROSS is the most precious event in human history.

No comment necessary.  Truth is truth.

[aw]

Thank you! Finally someone who acknowledges that man can bring nothing to that Cross in his stinking little hand to hold up to God. All we can do is to humbly bow before the majesty of His grace and love.

Not by the will of flesh, nor by the will of man, but ALL is of God. Salvation originates and ends with Him amd Him alone.

aw

[nChrist]

AMEN AGAIN BROTHER AW!

Our all is in Jesus Christ, HIS Blood, and HIS GIFT.

Our forgiveness, redemption, sanctification, and justification is in Jesus Christ.

We have no righteousness of our own. Our righteousness is seen only in and through Jesus Christ. We are also made fit in and through HIM.  In other words, we have nothing without Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[aw]

I saw this as kind of a spiritual summary of the gospel;

Christ + nothing = salvation

Christ + anything/anyone = nothing

aw

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 2

It is not dispensationalism to ask the question, "WHO is being addressed."

Not technically if that is where you stopped, but you go on to assume that those who are being addressed directly are the only ones being addressed.  It is never right to come to the conclusion that just because someone specific is being addressed that the message does not apply equally to you.  When Jesus tells the woman who is caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more" do you figure that doesn't apply to you?

Again, and something you refuse to acknowledge, is that the bible comments on itself.

I refuse to acknowledge it because so far it is only your unsupported opinion.  You don't even bother to try to find and/or provide any support for the idea within scripture - so much for sola scriptura.

Romans 15:8,9 makes it clear that Christ came to the JEWS first to fulfill the promises made to their fathers. Those promises included fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant and the offer of the KINGDOM.

Rom 15:8-9  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

This verse says the promises were confirmed by Christ, not fulfilled, as you claim. The promises will be fulfilled at some point later.  And the Church as grafted in will participate in receiving those promises. To imply that Christ offered the Israelites the chance at an earthly kingdom if they were to accept Him, is not supported by scripture.  Do you really want to claim that Christ came down to earth with one purpose and had to abandon it for plan B and then establish the Church?

Why do you suppose that Jesus said to go "NOT IN THE WAY OF THE GENTILES," but ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL?

It is a fulfillment of the promise of Ez 34:5-6, and Jer 50:6,17 but that directive is not to go to the Israelites with a preaching of the earthly kingdom, but to go to them to preach the message of the Gospel - the same message and the same Gospel that was preached to the gentiles.

There is no difference between Jew and gentile so there is no point to the message being different.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are wild olive branches graft in to the natural tree where branches were broken off, but we can yet be broken off if we lose faith.  Rom 11:17-21

By your theology, you would have believers follow instructions that even the Lord specifically forbade!!!!!!!

What instructions would those be?  Jesus Himself also said that He was sent only for the house of Israel - if you take that literally and refuse to apply it to us as you do with these other verses then there is no salvation for gentiles.

Mat 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Do you pray that "Your flight be not in winter or on the sabbath day?" Well, do you? The Lord said to do it and thus, by your own admission, if you are not you are being willfully disobedient.

I do - as all Christians have throughout history since we do not know when the tribulation will come upon the Church.  You may not because you have some idea that the Church won’t be here but that is just based on more bad interpretations based on a preconceived notion of dispensationalism which has clouded all your interpretations of scripture to the exclusion of whole parts of the word of God from your life.

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2

You did not respond the Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24- believers are NEVER judged as to CONDEMNATION. The Believer is judged at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST and you should not that it relates to rewards only. If you do not know that, I will instruct but you will probably reject even though it is as straightforward as it could be.

I believe I did respond to the two verses Roman 8:1-2 and John 5:24 at least at a level comparable to the interpretation you offered for the verse you yourself referenced.  But I will be glad to expand on my explanation.  In the last post I stated - Excuse me but you are definitely wrong on this of course the believers are judged. - and then I used the example of the sheep and goats which occurs at the judgement day and this is more than just for rewards this is about entering the kingdom or not getting to go to heaven.

If you want more on those two verses I can easily show that they teach the same thing as the parable of the sheep and goats.

Rom 8:1-2  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This says there is no condemnation (not that there is no judgment) of them which are in Christ AND who walk not after the flesh (bad works) but after the spirit (good works of love).  So we see that out walking in the spirit is not just related to rewards but as a requirement to a proper acceptance of the gift and thus avoiding condemnation.  We are judged but there is no condemnation of us because we are in Christ and walk after the spirit.

Of course we have to ask how we are in Christ and that is best seen in John 15:10

Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Your reference to John 5:24 doesn't say what you think it does either.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It says there is no condemnation (again not that there is no judgment).  Not amazingly we also see here, that not only do we have to believe, but we have to hear (and this is not just letting it go in one ear and out the other).  Hearing is an understanding, acceptance and internalizing of the message of the Gospel such that it becomes part of our life - this is works.  If we do not do hear His message we can't truly have faith in Him.

The Church could not possibly be judged according to how they treated Christ's brethren, the JEWS during the Tribulation.

Why is that - because you follow some dispensational approach of a rapture and a literal millenial reign of Christ on earth?  

I will agree thaT WE CAN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF VISITING PEOPLE IN JAIL AS ONE EXAMPLE, BUT WE COULD NEVER BE JUDGED FOR CONFDEMNATION BY THAT STANDARD. That makes no sense at all much less having any scriptural basis.

If we do not do such acts of love we would have a dead faith and thus not have properly accepted the gift and we are judged for condemnation by that.

To say I close my ears is also ABSURD! I respond with more scripture and spend more time that either of you preparing a response as indicated by your total lack of anything but OPINIONS!

I did not say that you closed your ears, but you do tend to ignore the message to all of us of verses that you feel you can apply only to certain other groups.  Your claim at responding with more scripture and spending more time is nonsense as you seldom if ever do any more than quote scripture without providing an interpretation of what you claim it means.  It doesn't take much time to do that.  It does have the advantage of avoiding making your own opinions/doctrine have to face an analysis that would show them to be self contradictory or in contradiction with other scripture.  Secondly, since I supplied 46 verse references in one single post, plus dozens of other in other posts, and you have only promised you could provide 146 verses and then never delivered on that offer - I don't think you have any room to complain.

Come back when you have something meaningfyl to offer and we can have a DISCUSSSION. You even have that wrong by calling it a DEBATE. It is NOT debate, but DISCUSSION and it should be with something other than personal opinions.

Don't try to pull semantic gymnastics with me, especially if you are not going to bother to look up the terms.  Webster defines a discussion as a consideration of a question in an open and informal debate.   It defines a debate as a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides.  So we see that a discussion and a debate differ only very slightly.  Perhaps you are right though, as you don't seem to regulate your response to any format other than simple verse slinging and you seem to be over matched.

Let me know, and I would say brothers, but I am not so sure. Are either of you BORN AGAIN by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone?

I am born again but it is not as simplistic as you make it out to be.  A proper understanding of the salvation process depends on what you think the finished work of Christ accomplished.  It is clear that even you cannot think that it means our salvation was completed at the cross, because then we wouldn't even have to have faith, because that comes later.  If our personal salvation was finished at the cross then we would all be saved, every last one of us and there would be no need for the decision of faith that occurs in some instances (like mine) over a thousand years later.  

So what did Christ mean when He said, on the cross that, "it is finished"?  He meant that His role as sacrificial lamb was finished - that the offering of the gift was finished.  Our acceptance of the gift is not finished.  That takes us back to our discussion/debate - how did Christ instruct us to accept the gift.  You say by faith alone - even though you cannot provide a single verse that says that.  I say by a living faith - one that cannot be separated from works of love fulfilling the spirit of the law and I provide verse after verse, that support it, that you refuse to even address.  I even provide 46 verses that clearly lay out other things we are instructed to do to properly accept the gift and you ignore them, not even bothering to give a reason for each as to why you feel you can ignore them.  Instead relying on a blanket approach that if they don’t match your preconceived notion of salvation they must have been written for someone else in another dispensation.

END OF PART 2
END

[michael_legna]

I saw this as kind of a spiritual summary of the gospel;

Christ + nothing = salvation

Christ + anything/anyone = nothing

aw

Then whoever came up with this summary doesn't have a clue about what the Gospel teaches.

Tell me where does faith (you admit is essential) fit in that formula?

Christ + nothing = salvation

In the first version if it fits in the first term "Christ" then we all are saved since He did it all for us and we even get faith for free no effort.   But that doesn't work because we know that not all are saved.

If faith fits in the second term "nothing" (since it is nothing in comparsion to the gift) then it either is not essentail (as somethign which is nothing can hardly be essential) or works can fit right in there too.  And we are back to our discussion as to whether the scriptures teach faith and works or faith alone and we must figure it out by addressing the scriptures each of us provide to support one interpretation or the other.

[aw]

Michael,
You IZ one mo mixed up dude and I suspect you are going to stay that way as you are too proud to consider any alternative to what you believe. You are sitting under some very poor, if not heretical, teaching.

I really don't have the time to become your teacher, but I will give just one example- you attempted to refute Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24 on the grounds that there are differences between CONDEMNATION and JUDGMNET. Please, do a little more study before you make such statements.

****THE REASON???????****** CHRIST DIED so there would be NO CONDEMNATION!!!!!!!!!

That kind of doctrine of devils is what cause roighteous indignation to rise up- not against you personally as you may not know any better.

I will attempt one final time to point out your errors in this regard. Concerning "JUDGMENTS":

"SIN" was judged at CALVARY in A.D.30. CHRIST DIED with the result of JUSTIFICATION for all who will believe. It has already occurred. (Romans 10:4)

Christ is the END OF THE LAW to all who believe. To return to LAW is to FALL FROM GRACE and any gospel that contains any human WORK has the attendant ANATHEMA(CURSE) of God attached to it!!!!!

We have been redeemed from the CURSE of the LAW. Go on back if you wish and if you do, CHRIST will be of NO EFFECT for you!

He bore our sins in His body on the Cross and as the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world.

Now, if you can get a JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION out of that, then feel free to live in that kind of teaching. I advize others to run as far and as fast as possible from the abominations of LEGALISM!!!!!

Judgment #2- Already explained. It is for believers and is concerned with REWARDS only! (2 Cor 5:10) It is the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

Judgment #3- Is on the THRONE OF HIS GLORY, on the EARTH, and is rerated to the NATIONS as either sheep or goats.

Judgment #4- Is the GREAT WHITE THRONE Judgment and is concerned with the WICKED DEAD.

Where in the world are you being taught exegesis/escatology? Wherever or whoever really need prayer and help and I have never read such teachings so replete with multiplicity of ambiguity.

aw

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 2

I really don't have the time to become your teacher,

If it makes you feel better to express your failing to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you, in that way I am glad I could help.  But you should know that I don't let just anyone teach me I rely on the teachings of the Chruch that was promised protection from error and whose authority was passed on through a proper succession of laying on of hands, something you do not have access to in your church.

but I will give just one example- you attempted to refute Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24 on the grounds that there are differences between CONDEMNATION and JUDGMNET. Please, do a little more study before you make such statements.

****THE REASON?****** CHRIST DIED so there would be NO CONDEMNATION!!!!!!!!!

I agree but you said that Christians weren’t even judged and I showed you that scripture proves that is not true.  We are judged and if we have properly accepted the gift made possible by Christ’s death we are not condemned.  If we have not accepted it properly then we will be condemned.

I will attempt one final time to point out your errors in this regard. Concerning "JUDGMENTS":

"SIN" was judged at CALVARY in A.D.30. CHRIST DIED with the result of JUSTIFICATION for all who will believe. It has already occurred. (Romans 10:4)

Yes, His part did occur in the past, but to get that judgment of sin applied to us we have to do something don’t we?  We have to believe and this belief has to be a living faith one not separated from works.  We have to believe in Him ion our hearts, meaning we have to internalize His teachings.  We have to believe in Him as more than just the sacrificial lamb but believe in Him in His role as Lord and shepherd.  If we do not pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him we are not worthy of Him.  Luke 9:23

Christ is the END OF THE LAW to all who believe.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that Christ is the end of the law, in fact Christ makes it perfectly clear that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and He taught us that love fulfills the law.

To return to LAW is to FALL FROM GRACE

No that is your misinterpretation of the scriptures.  Any return to legalism and trying to merit salvation through the letter of the law is a fall from grace.  Paul himself tells us that it is only the letter of the law that killeth and that the spirit of the law brings life.

and any gospel that contains any human WORK has the attendant ANATHEMA(CURSE) of God attached to it!!!!!

This must be a anathema of your own as it does not appear in the scriptures.  The only verse that contains a reference to an anathema is 1 Cor 16:22  If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.  Where we see that it is brought down on us for not loving Jesus.  Faith alone is not enough we must love Christ and how do we love Him?  

Maybe you intend to refer to a curse, but the only place a curse and the law are referenced in the scriptures is in John 7:49  But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed, and Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  Now if one only built their doctrine off of the verse from Galatians in isolation ignoring most of the rest of scripture you might fall into your error.  But we see that John is in contradiction to a simplistic interpretation of Galatians.  The resolution comes when we see that Christ taught love fulfills all the law.  

Mat 22:36-40  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   This is the first and great commandment.   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So we can keep all the law (the spirit of the law not the letter).  

Even Paul taught this so he must have seen his statement in Galatians differently than you intend it.  Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.  Paul even repeats himself later in the same book the curse you refer to comes from.  Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Or maybe you intend the curse mentioned in association with the teaching of false Gospels.  

Gal 1:8-9  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

But then it is your Gospel that is different and new (having not been heard of prior to the 1500’s)

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2

We have been redeemed from the CURSE of the LAW. Go on back if you wish and if you do, CHRIST will be of NO EFFECT for you!

He bore our sins in His body on the Cross and as the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world.

Yes and that infused righteousness and grace makes it possible for us to have faith and to do works pleasing to God.  Without it there would be no chance for us.  That is the nature of the free gift, but it is still up to us to accept it.

Now, if you can get a JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION out of that, then feel free to live in that kind of teaching. I advize others to run as far and as fast as possible from the abominations of LEGALISM!!!!!

It is hardly legalism to obey Christ and accept the gift as he has instructed us.  Only if we fall into the error that we are somehow meriting the gift by following those instructions does it become legalism.

I have already shown you the judgment in the parable of the sheep and goats where Christ judges us placing us on His right or left hand.  There is of course no condemnation on those who properly accept the gift, but those who do not the works of love to keep their faith alive and perfect it are judged – they are the goats and they are cast into hell.  But you have ignored this parable apparently having no way to make it fit into your doctrine which is based on a few carefully choosen verses from within all of scripture.

Here is another parable for you to ignore.  Those who claimed to do good deeds in His name but were really doing them not as a loving response but as an attempt at legalism to merit salvation.

Mat 7:21-23  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.   Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They call out His name recognizing Him as Lord, right to His face and yet this amount of faith is not sufficient (getting back to the topic of the thread) for salvation.  Why?  Because they did not do the will of the Father.  They claim that they did, but it is clear that the works they list are just prideful works based on the strength of their faith alone, aimed at meriting their salvation, never really doing the will of God which is for us to love Him and love others.

Judgment #2- Already explained. It is for believers and is concerned with REWARDS only! (2 Cor 5:10) It is the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

We will get rewards and suffer loss at this judgment, but the verse nowhere says that that is all that judgment is for.  You sure like to slip ONLY in a lot where it doesn’t exist.  Just like Luther changing scripture by adding alone to faith where it never existed.

Judgment #3- Is on the THRONE OF HIS GLORY, on the EARTH, and is rerated to the NATIONS as either sheep or goats.

Judgment #4- Is the GREAT WHITE THRONE Judgment and is concerned with the WICKED DEAD.

There are only two judgments the particular and the general.  Your claiming a doctrine of four separate judgments does not prove it is supported by scripture.  These arbitrary divisions of yours have not basis, which is clear from the fact that you don’t bother to try to even offer one from scripture preferring instead to hope we just accept your word as authoritative I guess because you have set yourself up as our teacher.  Unfortunately you are ill prepared for the position.

Where in the world are you being taught exegesis/escatology? Wherever or whoever really need prayer and help and I have never read such teachings so replete with multiplicity of ambiguity.

This eschatology is the same as has been taught throughout Christendom for 2000 years with the exception of some of those who broke away back about 1500 years ago.  Separation of the judgments into 4 events is a new and novel invention of men, not known before the 1500’s.

END OF PART 2
END

[nChrist]

Micael_Legna Said:

If it makes you feel better to express your failing to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you, in that way I am glad I could help.  But you should know that I don't let just anyone teach me I rely on the teachings of the Chruch that was promised protection from error and whose authority was passed on through a proper succession of laying on of hands, something you do not have access to in your church.

Michael,

I've tried pretty hard to stay out of this. I would hope that you aren't even hinting that the Catholic Church is the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are, the monstrosity of your error would be beyond description. Please do let me know if this is what you are implying. I would also hope that you don't imply there is no error in your brick and mortar buildings. Your brick and mortar buildings are riddled with errors, human failures, and sin. If you claim some sort of Divine protection from error, failure, and sin for your church, it didn't happen, hasn't happened, and won't happen. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE BAPTIST CHURCH, THE METHODIST CHURCH, OR ANY OTHER DEVISE OF MAN. If you are looking for a brick and mortar church without error, failure, and sin - THERE ISN'T ONE.  

THE CHURCH is never compared with any of man's error, failure, and sin-ridden structures. That includes all of man's structures.

Tom