Would this be sufficient for Salvation?

[nChrist]

Aw Said:

Let me clear this up for any lurkers or non-responding readers: 1. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One hears or reads the gospel of the grace of God for salvation. (Romans 10:17) 2. This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor 15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died for our sins and was raised for our justification.3. One believes that with their whole heart. (Romans 10:10)

***THEY ARE BORN AGAIN***

AMEN Brother Aw,

There are many people who are almost determined to add something to the blood of Jesus. These areas usually involve self-righteousness and/or good works. The only righteousness we have is seen through and in Jesus Christ. Good works don't save us or keep us saved, plain and simple. Many passages addressing good works are taken out of context and misunderstood. They are exhortations for Christians that our joy might be more full in many cases. They also address our conduct and testimony before men. Bearing fruit in service to HIM is a beautiful example of how a Christian's joy in Christ will most definitely be more full. Our fruit, testimony, and service also has much to do with building our strength in HIM. Our Christian walk obviously effects the quantity and quality of our personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[michael_legna]

Any method you use to exegete the verse will result in one simple thing- BELIEVE the WORDS that Christ spoke.

Yes but we must believe ALL the words that Christ spoke, not just some of them - so your own claim here disagrees with your claim below that "If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved."  You really need to make up your mind - do you need to believe the words that Christ spoke or just some of them.

Christ is and was God, and for Him to instruct us to believe those words is the same as believing the Father. BELIEVE represents ALL that a person can do for salvation.

Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.  How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?  There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.  Additionally I have already shown you from scripture (which you ignored) where Jesus Himself pointed out that blasphemy of one person of the Trinity was different than blasphemy of another person of the Trinity so the converse (belief and worship) must be as well.

Let me clear this up for any lurkers or non-responding readers:

You need to include yourself in this number since you have failed to respond to any of the scripture I have provided and in actuality you have failed to respond at all except through your personal opinion with no support.

1. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One hears or reads the gospel of the grace of God for salvation.  

But hearing doesn't mean let it go in one ear and out the other, it means hear and understand and take it to heart, internalize it and make it part of your life.  In this way your works perfect your faith.

Yes Romans 10:17 says we have to hear to have faith, but you neeglect to consider the verse just previous to it, Rom 10:16 where it makes a point that not all have obeyed the Gospel.  What was that? Obedience?  What does that have to do with salvation?  Nothing in your doctrine but everything in the true doctrine of the Gospel.  Lets see what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel like those in the verse you ignored by taking Rom 10:17 out of context.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Flaming vengeance and judgement - sounds like damnation to hell to me.  Certainly doesn't sound like they are saved if they just believe and do not obey.

2. This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor 15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died for our sins and was raised for our justification.

You see the Gospel summarized in 1 Cor 15 because you have a limited understanding of the Gospel.  That chapter makes no claim to being a summary of the Gospel, it is just your interpretation.

3. One believes that with their whole heart. (Romans 10:10)

***THEY ARE BORN AGAIN***

Yes we must take the message to heart but this is not just a deep conviction you only feel - but to take something to heart means you bring it into your life.  True belief is not a living faith until it has works to go along with it - until then it is just a dead faith.

It is BELIEVE/FAITH/TRUST in the PERSON of the Saviour of the World. It is not FAITH in FAITH but a PERSON.

No one is saying it is faith in faith.  But it is more than just faith in a Person, it is faith in the Person and Him who sent Him and His message.

Believe on Him and you will be saved. If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved.

That is part of it but nowhere in scripture does it say that you can ignore Christ or deny Him as your Shepherd, King and Lord and these roles require us to follow Him picking up our cross daily (not just once in a one time decision but DAILY).

The point with the 146 passages was to emphasize that salvation is never contingent upon anything but believing in CHRIST WITH THE HEART.

So does this mean that you cannot or are unwilling to provide these 146 verse you claim exist?

A claim never emphasizes anything until it is backed up with some proof.

[Sower]

I assume from your answer that some type of WORKS must be added for salvation. If that is your belief, then please stipulate what those good works actually are.

aw

No works need be added for salvation.  Salvation is a free gift.

But we are instructed in scripture to accept that gift through faith, a living faith which reuires works so it is perfected and not dead.

Those works are works of love (the golden rule - treating another as you would want to be treated).  God desires mercy not sacrifice (and not mercy towards Him - He doesn't need our mercy - mercy towards one another).  That is why love is the fulfillment o the law.  Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

So specifically we need to do what those scriptures I referenced tell us to do and we need to love one another as He has loved us.  Otherwise we have not properly accepted the gift.

Michael:

If the Roman Catholic Church preached and believed what you have stated above, then there would be absolutely no argument, since what you have stated is Bible truth.

At the same time, if you believe this, then you must also reject the Catholic teaching on baptismal regeneration, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism. You can't have both. So have you made your choice, or do you still believe that Mary somehow has to augment what Christ alone could and did accomplish?

[michael_legna]

I assume from your answer that some type of WORKS must be added for salvation. If that is your belief, then please stipulate what those good works actually are.

aw

No works need be added for salvation.  Salvation is a free gift.

But we are instructed in scripture to accept that gift through faith, a living faith which reuires works so it is perfected and not dead.

Those works are works of love (the golden rule - treating another as you would want to be treated).  God desires mercy not sacrifice (and not mercy towards Him - He doesn't need our mercy - mercy towards one another).  That is why love is the fulfillment o the law.  Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

So specifically we need to do what those scriptures I referenced tell us to do and we need to love one another as He has loved us.  Otherwise we have not properly accepted the gift.

Michael:

If the Roman Catholic Church preached and believed what you have stated above, then there would be absolutely no argument, since what you have stated is Bible truth.

At the same time, if you believe this, then you must also reject the Catholic teaching on baptismal regeneration, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism. You can't have both. So have you made your choice, or do you still believe that Mary somehow has to augment what Christ alone could and did accomplish?

What I stated above is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.  You have just been misled by those who wish to spread hatred and prejudice.  

I do not have to reject baptismal regeneration, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism because they are part of the instructions Christ gave us for properly accepting the free gift.  They are not added to it, they are our loving response to it.  No different than our response of faith.

Grace freely given, faith freely decided, works freely done.

If it was just grace then all would be saved.

If it was just grace and faith then we would be saved by a dead faith.

So it is all three the gift and our twofold acceptance - just as we were taught by Christ.

The Catholic Church also does not teach that Mary in anyway augments what Christ did.  I don't know where you got that (maybe from a misunderstanding of what the Church means by the terms coredemptrix or something) but that is not the teaching of the Church and never has been.

[darby]

It is sometimes asserted that James is in conflict with Paul on the question of the relation of faith and works.  James declares that "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (2:17) and "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (2:24).  Conversely, Paul is emphatic that "a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ" (Gal. 2:16; compare Rom. 3:28).

The difference between the two, however, is largely one of emphasis and definition.  For James "faith" means primarily an intellectual acceptance of a proposition about God, such as "God is one" - a belief that even demons possess without undergoing any moral change (2:19).  Paul would have agreed with James that this kind of faith is insufficient to save a person.  Faith, according to Paul, is far more than a mere intellectual assent to a doctrine, however orthodox that doctrince may be.  For him faith is at once belief, trust, loyalty, the means whereby the believer comes into mystical union with Christ and receives the free gift of the spirit.  According to Paul, one is saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone - it is followed by good works that prove the vitality of that faith.  In brief, Paul declares that the only thing that avails in bringing one into a right relationship with God is "faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6) - and in this he is merely rephrasing a saying of Jesus,

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

[darby]

That was from a text book of mine, The New Testament: Its Background, Growth, and Content, the third edition by Bruce Metzger, pages 289-290.  I thought he summed it up well.

[aw]

Any method you use to exegete the verse will result in one simple thing- BELIEVE the WORDS that Christ spoke.

Yes but we must believe ALL the words that Christ spoke, not just some of them - so your own claim here disagrees with your claim below that "If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved."  You really need to make up your mind - do you need to believe the words that Christ spoke or just some of them.

Christ is and was God, and for Him to instruct us to believe those words is the same as believing the Father. BELIEVE represents ALL that a person can do for salvation.

Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.  How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?  There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.  Additionally I have already shown you from scripture (which you ignored) where Jesus Himself pointed out that blasphemy of one person of the Trinity was different than blasphemy of another person of the Trinity so the converse (belief and worship) must be as well.

Let me clear this up for any lurkers or non-responding readers:

You need to include yourself in this number since you have failed to respond to any of the scripture I have provided and in actuality you have failed to respond at all except through your personal opinion with no support.

1. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One hears or reads the gospel of the grace of God for salvation.  

But hearing doesn't mean let it go in one ear and out the other, it means hear and understand and take it to heart, internalize it and make it part of your life.  In this way your works perfect your faith.

Yes Romans 10:17 says we have to hear to have faith, but you neeglect to consider the verse just previous to it, Rom 10:16 where it makes a point that not all have obeyed the Gospel.  What was that? Obedience?  What does that have to do with salvation?  Nothing in your doctrine but everything in the true doctrine of the Gospel.  Lets see what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel like those in the verse you ignored by taking Rom 10:17 out of context.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Flaming vengeance and judgement - sounds like damnation to hell to me.  Certainly doesn't sound like they are saved if they just believe and do not obey.

2. This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor 15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died for our sins and was raised for our justification.

You see the Gospel summarized in 1 Cor 15 because you have a limited understanding of the Gospel.  That chapter makes no claim to being a summary of the Gospel, it is just your interpretation.

3. One believes that with their whole heart. (Romans 10:10)

***THEY ARE BORN AGAIN***

Yes we must take the message to heart but this is not just a deep conviction you only feel - but to take something to heart means you bring it into your life.  True belief is not a living faith until it has works to go along with it - until then it is just a dead faith.

It is BELIEVE/FAITH/TRUST in the PERSON of the Saviour of the World. It is not FAITH in FAITH but a PERSON.

No one is saying it is faith in faith.  But it is more than just faith in a Person, it is faith in the Person and Him who sent Him and His message.

Believe on Him and you will be saved. If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved.

That is part of it but nowhere in scripture does it say that you can ignore Christ or deny Him as your Shepherd, King and Lord and these roles require us to follow Him picking up our cross daily (not just once in a one time decision but DAILY).

The point with the 146 passages was to emphasize that salvation is never contingent upon anything but believing in CHRIST WITH THE HEART.

So does this mean that you cannot or are unwilling to provide these 146 verse you claim exist?

A claim never emphasizes anything until it is backed up with some proof.

[michael_legna]

Opinions are all any of us have, that and faith.  I certainly don't claim to know anything for absolute certain.  I believe other things but that is not the same a s knowing.

On the othe hand I have provided scriptures to back up what I have said - as I am good to my word.  And I know we both accept those as reliable.  You on the other hand have failed to live up to your word and I am beginning to doubt (as all the lurkers and non-posters should) that you can even come up with 146 verses that state what you claim they do with regard to salvation by faith alone.

We both agree that faith is important, no even crucial to properly accepting the free gift.  I admit there are verses galore that say it is required and even that other things are not acceptable (such as works aimed at meriting salvation).  But I only know one verse in the Bible that refers to the concept of "faith alone".

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And clearly it does not say what these other supposed 146 verses you claim to have but can't seem to produce supposedly say.  I have already shown you where the first three don't say anything like what you claim so I guess your interpretation of the rest must be as weak and this is why you are reluctant to provide them.
 

[aw]

Just keep studying my man. STUDY to show thyself approved is scriptural.

The Bible is a COMMENTARY on itself and a BELIEVER need not that any man teach him anything. It is the ANOINTING that TEACHES us ALL things and does not lie. (1 John 2:20,27) God uses men/women, but He gives us much more than just opinions.

You are attempting to engage in a scriptural "tit-for-tat" where opinions are tossed back and forth in an attempt to "Ein the local high scholl deabting contest." It never works, NEVER! No one ever changes their mind and it usually ends up in strife and where that is there is "Confusuion and every evil work."

There are 146 passages of scripture that link salvation with the words FAITH/BELIEVE/TRUST. That is a biblical fact and I am not going to take the time to type them all out, only to have you redefine everything with your opinons- it ain't worth it. The scriptures speak for themselves and the whole counsel of God is in favor of salvation as simply being "BY grace through FAITH," Period- NOT of WORKS. Salvation is ALWAYS presented as being UNTO good works, but works are NEVER presented as being SALVIFIC.

I reccomend that you read several different commentaries from a variety of sources on James versus Paul. If you do, you should discover, by Holy Spirit illumination, that they are nort in conflict. James was addressing Jewish Christians and was describing justificaton in the eyes of man and NOT God.

aw

[michael_legna]

Just keep studying my man. STUDY to show thyself approved is scriptural.

Good advice especially if one is going to go back on their claim of having access to a resource list of specific verses to study.

The Bible is a COMMENTARY on itself and a BELIEVER need not that any man teach him anything.

This is of course nonsense.  Nowhere in scripture does it claim to be a commentary on itself.   So this is apparently an idea you got from outside of scripture - so much for sola scriptura.

As for a believe not needing any man to teach him anything you are drastically mistaken there as well.

New beleivers need milk and not meat (1 Cor 3:2 and Heb 5:12) and thus need someone to identify which is which and provide it, others are to shepherd those who are members of the Church just as Peter was told to feed His sheep (John 21:16-17) and the sheep were not told to feed themselves, and finally of course we are all told to submit to those who keep watch over our souls because it is profitable to us (Heb 13:17).  It is very clear scripture teaches that we are to learn not alone but from others.

It is the ANOINTING that TEACHES us ALL things and does not lie. (1 John 2:20,27)

Yes but then if we are to take this verse literally there would be no disagreement in the Church and there is.  In fact the scriptures makes provision for resolving these difference - just as Paul faced when there were those in his own time who were members of the Church who would not accept that even he knew everything.

Matt 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If we were meant to take 1 John 2:20 literally the Bible would not include this process for resolving the disputes that would arise.

No one ever changes their mind and it usually ends up in strife and where that is there is "Confusuion and every evil work."

So based on this opinion of yours, you have given up apologetics and witnessing?  Is that what you are telling me?  Don't let your personal experience lead you to dispair, I can tell you that people do change their minds.

There are 146 passages of scripture that link salvation with the words FAITH/BELIEVE/TRUST. That is a biblical fact

It is not a Biblical fact until you can prove it, I happen to think there are alot more than 146, but none of them link salvation to ONLY FAITH/BELIEVE/TRUST.  

But the point really is if ou do not care enough about the topic to do that kindly refrain from making claims you are unwilling to support.

and I am not going to take the time to type them all out, only to have you redefine everything with your opinons- it ain't worth it.

Yeah the ten minutes of work it would take to do the search in your Bible software and then copy and paste it are just too much for you.  Or is it because you know you would have to re-evaluate your impression of these verses and your own interpretation if you held them up to the light of day and saw that there were other interpretations possible?

The scriptures speak for themselves

No they don't they are not clear and obvious to the most casual observer or your exhortation for me to study to show myself approved would make no sense.  See how even your approach to hermenuetics is self contradictory?

and the whole counsel of God is in favor of salvation as simply being "BY grace through FAITH," Period- NOT of WORKS.

No that is just your interpretation.  I have shown verse after verse and corrected every interpretation of every verse you have provided to show that that is not true while you do nothing but ignore the ones I offer as support for accepting the free gift through faith and works.  If one wants to base their doctrine on a limited subset of scriptures one can prove anything.  I suggest you start comparing the verses you have relied on (even if you won't show them to anyone  else) to the rest of the Bible and see how you doctrine falls apart.

Salvation is ALWAYS presented as being UNTO good works, but works are NEVER presented as being SALVIFIC.

No it is not that again is just your opinion and another unsupported one at that.

I reccomend that you read several different commentaries from a variety of sources on James versus Paul. If you do, you should discover, by Holy Spirit illumination, that they are nort in conflict. James was addressing Jewish Christians and was describing justificaton in the eyes of man and NOT God.

That is just bad interpretation from a bad commentary.  James is about salvation as I have shown in several other threads - in fact he spends a great deal of time telling not to judge men (which you claim is the very thing his book is supposedly about).  Man cannot judge another's justification, nor should we.

I hope you never have to face it but if you do I hope you stand up to real persecution for your beliefs better than you have to my simple questioning.

[darby]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

aw, please read that, and then read it again!

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

"I_believe" is right, the central theme of the NT is to love one another.  If the Bible was a fish, the meat of the fish is Jesus and his teachings, but you however sir, are choking on the bones.

[michael_legna]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

aw, please read that, and then read it again!

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

"I_believe" is right, the central theme of the NT is to love one another.  If the Bible was a fish, the meat of the fish is Jesus and his teachings, but you however sir, are choking on the bones.

This is a very good point.  Especially if you take a good long look at it.

Please note that Jesus is the one speaking and He says that even those who stand right there and say Lord Lord,  they are calling Him Lord (sounds like faith in Jesus to me - sounds like they have the Spirit - as no one can call Jesus Lord without it 1 Cor 12:3) yet they are not saved because they have not done the will of the Father in heaven.

[Petro]

posted by michaellegna at reply #46

Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.

So, by asking this question,  you do admit, that their is a difference, between believing the Father and belieivng Jesus.

That is different from previous arguments you have presented.

How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?

We need not speculate about this, it was prophecied;

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them (Isa 6:10).  (Jhn 12:37-40)

There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.[/quoted]

What is worse, is there are many today that say they accept Jesus and the trinity, yet they reject, Jesus own words

By allowing themselves to be decived by other men...

How do you explain that??


Petro

 

[michael_legna]

posted by michaellegna at reply #46

Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.

So, by asking this question,  you do admit, that their is a difference, between believing the Father and belieivng Jesus.

That is different from previous arguments you have presented.

Nice to see you again Petro I thought you had given up on trying to discuss issues.

You are going to have to be more specific though in terms of what I have said in previous arguments as I do not see anything in what we are referring to here as being different from anything I might have said before.

How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?

We need not speculate about this, it was prophecied;

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them (Isa 6:10).  (Jhn 12:37-40)

For not needing to explain something you did a pretty remarkable job of doing so.

Yes they were blinded - and in doing so you proved my point -it is possible to believe in the Father and not believe in the Son.  That is because although they are both God they are also both separate and distinct persons of the Trinity.

There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.

What is worse, is there are many today that say they accept Jesus and the trinity, yet they reject, Jesus own words

By allowing themselves to be decived by other men...

How do you explain that??

Petro

I can't explain what drove the Reformers other than pride in self and a desire to have freedom from any authority even God's Church.

[aw]

Now Darby and Michael, we have something that will serve as an example of how one gets into error. You have used the passage that says that not everyone who uses His name will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but the one who does His will. (Paraphrase of Mt7:21)  

Allow me to point out your error. You say I am CHOKING ON BONES and michael is claiming something other than BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH for salvation. SOoooooooo

A BASIC question is "To whom is that passage being addressed?" The Lord is addressing JEWS concerning, WHAT? Entrance into their KINGDOM. It is not speaking of salvation by grace through faith in His finished work at all! He had not even gone to the Cross at this point and the Church was still a mystery!!!!

IN THAT DAY- WHAT DAY? The Judgment of the wicked dead? The believer NEVER comes into JUDGMENT/CONDMNATION. (Romans 8:1,2; John 5:24)

This passage neither says that something is required other than FAITH/BELIEVE (Bones) nor does it place requirements upon the maintenance of salvation.

aw