Christ's Church

[Kerygma]

Your discussion folder is as good as another to finally rid myself of this entire forum. What fellowship has light with darkness? I've reached the end of my patience with you and your compatriots. True discussion cannot take place here and that was amply demonstrated in Juan's discussion folder when he simply locked it out of frustration. We have given a witness to the truth of the Church but our witness has been shoved back into our faces in a most uncivil fashion. So, as I mentioned two weeks back, the time comes to shake the dust from one's "cyber" sandals as a witness against such a place and then to simply move on.

Good-bye.

[texseraphim]

"The church of Christ has never been in need of restoration.
It has been since the day of pentacost as related in Acts 2."

That is correct of the real church of Christ, but not of the Fundamentalist Sect you belong to that took on the name, but not the identity of Christ's Church.  It did not exist before 1906 Ollie.


"Preaching of the truth of God instead of men's religion is what was missing."

Nonsense, the truth of God was always taught in the real church.  Your dichotomy "from the Bible =s from God, not from the Bible =s form humans or 'men" is a false dichotomy.  The real church made and preceeded the Bible not the other way around as you have it, your portion of a verse out of context proof text aside.

And of course the Bible is still not God.

[Ambassador4Christ]

And of course the Bible is still not God.

Don't put a question mark where God puts a period.

[texseraphim]

"Don't put a question mark where God puts a period."

Sorry Ambassador, but that is an enigmatic statement, at least to me.

Could you expand or clarify what you are trying to say?

[ollie]

Matthew 4

 1.  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
 2.  And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
 3.  And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
 4.  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 5.  Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
 6.  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
 7.  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
 8.  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
 9.  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
 10.  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
 

[texseraphim]

Ollie, interesting proof text, but it proves nothing.

You see we who are Orthodox Christians worship and serve God alone.

Whilst you Campbellite sectarians worship and serve a paper and ink idol.

[ollie]

The Lord's church worships in spirit and in truth - John 4:24.


Philippians 3:3.  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 John 4:23.  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24.  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[texseraphim]

"The Lord's church worships in spirit and in truth - John 4:24"

What version of your paper and ink idol are you qouting Ollie?

My Bible does not mention the Lord's Church in Jn 4:24

"God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth"

How does one worship in spirit and truth anyway Ollie?  Do you sit silently and meditate, since doing anything else would involve the "flesh?"

You are not a member of "the Lord's church" anyway, you are a member of the Fundamentalist campbellite sect.

You may as well lay off with your out of context proof texts, you are only impressing yourself and perhaps your fellow fundies.

[Nostalghia]

Ollie, im afraid to say, your reasonings are ridiculus.  The Church was started at the day of Pentecost, and on the rock of Peter, which is the ecclesial rite, the Church was started.  It is an impossibility for the Church to have failed, without denying scripture. He said the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, that the Church is the pillar and ground of truthe, and that the gates of Hell would not prevail.  Your reasonings are insufficient.  The Church of Christ was not created in the 20th century.  If, perhaps, you are curious on the activities of the eklessia, why not read about their actions in the first, second, and third centuries?  Is this scandalous?  

Please answer reasonably.  I refuse to talk in circles, or play games.  How about a real discussion?

[texseraphim]

"Please answer reasonably.  I refuse to talk in circles, or play games.  How about a real discussion?"

Ollie refuses to say anything except post enigmatic proof texts that do nothing to prove his case.

But he can do nothing else since his sect has no logical reason for existing, and indeed contradicts the very Bible it claims to follow to the tee.

Why should anyone listen to the campbellites "church of Christ"?  Which "church of Christ"?  There are several campbellite sects, all claiming to be to only church of Christ  containing  the only Christians, refusing fellowship, and all hurling proof texts at each other.
 
 

[ollie]

The Church, the fulness of Christ
 (Eph. 1:23)

Ephesians 1:22.  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23.  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

[truthlover]

The church of Christ only follows the Bible -2 John 9-11; Mark 7:6-7.
The Lord only built one church - Ephesians 4:4-6.
The Lord's church is not a denomination - 1 Corinthians 1:10

Ollie, I like much of what you're saying about the church.  I've said a lot of the same myself.

I have two questions for you.

1.  How do you practically work out what you are describing.  If you attend a local congregation, then unless it's the only congregation in your town, are you not participating in a division?

2.  Do you have any Scripture that says the church follows only the Bible?  Those two passages you gave say we are to follow God.  They say nothing about the Bible.  Since the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God, not the Bible, and since the pillar and support of the Truth is the Church, not the Bible, then why should I believe that the family of God, the pillar and support of the Truth, follows the Bible rather than what it is led into by the Spirit?

[ollie]

The church of Christ only follows the Bible -2 John 9-11; Mark 7:6-7.


 2 John 1:9.  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 10.  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
 11.  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Mark 7:6.  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
 7.  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 8.  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Luke 4:4.  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.



Revelation 1:1.  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 2.  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
 3.  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Matthew 4:4.  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 1 Corinthians 14:36.  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
 37.  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
 
 Ephesians 6:13.  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
 14.  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
 15.  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
 16.  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
 17.  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
 

The Bible or "the Book" is the word of God and contains the doctrines of Christ. Christ's Church has no other guide.
It is of God, His will for man, and is sufficient and complete through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to furnish the man of God unto every work of God.

[truthlover]

Well, you didn't answer my other question, about what you do practically with what you're saying.

Also, you added, "Christ's church has no other guide."

Since "The Book," as you called it says, "The anointing...will teach you all things" (1 Jn 2:27), then how come you say the Scriptures are the only guide?  Do you have any Scriptures which say "The Scriptures are the only guide"?

You said, "The Bible...contains the doctrine of Christ."  I won't argue with that.  The doctrine of Christ, in my opinion, is pretty simple, and the Bible could indeed contain it in its entirety.  However, you also said, "The Bible is the word of God."  It hardly seems possible that any book could contain all of the word of God, and John specifically says no book or books could even contain all the deeds of Christ.

The Scriptures clearly say that Christ is the Word of God in several places.  Can you give any places where the Scriptures say that the Scriptures are the Word of God?  I don't mean places that say some sentence is the Word of God or that some of the Word of God is in the Scriptures.  Is there anywhere the Scriptures say, "The Scripture is the Word of God," like it says about Christ?  Somewhere that says that clearly without us first having to assume its true in order to think that's what it says.

I've never found such a place, nor has such a place ever been shown to me.

[ollie]

The church of Christ only follows the Bible -2 John 9-11; Mark 7:6-7.
The Lord only built one church - Ephesians 4:4-6.
The Lord's church is not a denomination - 1 Corinthians 1:10

Ollie, I like much of what you're saying about the church.  I've said a lot of the same myself.

I have two questions for you.

1.  How do you practically work out what you are describing.  If you attend a local congregation, then unless it's the only congregation in your town, are you not participating in a division?

There are to be no divisions in Christ's church. There is to be no participation in strife and divivisions. Many times there will be only one congregation in town. Many times the nearest congregation is many miles away. Sometimes there is no congregation. Sometimes the nearest congregation is not in a town but in the countryside. Sometimes it meets in a home. Sometimes in a public building. Sometimes in a park or a yard.

 Ephesians 4:1.  I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
 2.  With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
 3.  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
 4.  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
 5.  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 6.  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Ephesians 4:11.  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 12.  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 13.  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Romans 16:17.  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 18.  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


 1 Corinthians 3:3.  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 11:18.  For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
 19.  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2.  Do you have any Scripture that says the church follows only the Bible?  Those two passages you gave say we are to follow God.  They say nothing about the Bible.

Christ's church follows the word of God which we now have in the printed word as the Bible. It is the inspired word of God delivered through the Holy Spirit.

 

Since the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God, not the Bible, and since the pillar and support of the Truth is the Church, not the Bible, then why should I believe that the family of God, the pillar and support of the Truth, follows the Bible rather than what it is led into by the Spirit?

The word of God is the Spirit of God. The Bible is the word of God thus the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 2:11.  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
 12.  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
 13.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


1 John 4:2.  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The word of God printed in the form known as the Bible did not come first, the church did not come first, but God was first and His word.
The same word that was preached and heard and obeyed in the first century, we have today in the Bible.