Christ's Church

[ollie]

The church has God's wisdom through the inspired revealed word. - Ephesians 3:10.

Ephesians 3:1.  For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
 2.  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
 3.  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
 4.  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
 5.  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
 6.  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
 7.  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
 8.  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
 9.  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
 10.  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
 11.  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
 12.  In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
 13.  Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
 14.  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 15.  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
 16.  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
 17.  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
 18.  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
 19.  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 20.  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
 21.  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

[ollie]

What has been missing since the apostate, paganistic, traditions of men, church took over is the good news of Jesus Christ to be preached in truth, not adulterated, and people obeying it so once more they could be added to the true church such as should be saved. With this came a visible assembly of the church as Christians are told to assemble together.

The above statement is very revealing of the inconsistency of many fundamentalists. The claim that the early Church apostacized as the so-called "traditions of men" took over and that at some later point a "visible assembly of the church" came about runs contrary to scripture and contrary to history.

Any and all Protestant sects (even the silly Trail of Blood Baptists who have no visible proof for their statements other than their own say-so) can be shown historically to have begun long, long after the first millennium. For the most part, a good 1500 years transpired before the Reformation. Christ said He would build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Thus, to claim that the Church apostacized and that it was only with the coming of the Reformers that the Church was gotten "back on the tracks" so to speak, is to fly in the face of scripture. It is also to run completely against historical facts. The Orthodox Church can demonstrate historically and factually that it has been there from the earliest days.

Ollie... Christ's Church never had need of a reformation. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has withstood the assualts of the Romans, the Ottomans, the Communists and now the fundie naysayers. It will continue until the Bridegroom returns for His Bride. Your claims are without foundation and little more than wistful, imaginative thinking.

Christ's church also has withstood the adulterations of orthodoxy.

[Nostalghia]

Ollie, What denomination are you?

[Kerygma]

Well... if you take a look in another discussion folder you'll discover that our Ollie gives a resounding AMEN Brother to a discourse on humility. Then in a typical two-faced manner he does a 180 degree and slams me and the Orthodox Church. How do you spell hypocrite, Nostalghia? I spell it: O... L... L... I... E.

Well... let's allow that little slip of Christian praxis to pass. After all... most of them find it far easier to talk about the fruits of the Christian life than to actually apply them to their own lives. So, which of the 30,000 + denominations is your cuppa, Ollie?  

[ollie]

Ollie, What denomination are you?

No Denomination. Only the Church built by Christ.

[ollie]

Well... if you take a look in another discussion folder you'll discover that our Ollie gives a resounding AMEN Brother to a discourse on humility. Then in a typical two-faced manner he does a 180 degree and slams me and the Orthodox Church. How do you spell hypocrite, Nostalghia? I spell it: O... L... L... I... E.

Is there any humility in this post? I need an example! Teach me, show me! What would Jesus do? I know not as you do! The Bible tells me so!

I donot slam you or orthodoxy. I have asked repeated questions about orthodoxy and they go unanswered. I donot believe you are of orthodoxy because the orthodoxy I know personally donot act like Satan, but try to imitate Christ. You seem to like to agitate rather than teach God's truth.

You display a mean spirit and lack of love, in your name calling, rudeness and apparent love of putting people down.
I pray you can overcome it and talk as God would have you to talk.

Well... let's allow that little slip of Christian praxis to pass. After all... most of them find it far easier to talk about the fruits of the Christian life than to actually apply them to their own lives.

Speak for yourself.


 

So, which of the 30,000 + denominations is your cuppa, Ollie?  

There are 365 denominations and that includes the denomination of orthodoxy. That is just in North America. By the way when did Christians decide to denominate themselves as orthodox instead of being just "Christian"?

My "cuppa"? I donot know.  

The church it is Christ's. God's word reveals it. God's word calls one to Christ and upon obedience to God through Jesus Christ one is added to the church, the Lord's body.

Have a good Day that the Lord has seen right to give unto you.

Ollie

[Kerygma]

Christ's church also has withstood the adulterations of orthodoxy.

You do not agitate, you say? Ollie, you are such a phoney. One has only to reread your posts on the Orthodoxy discussion folder to see the truth of my words. It is you, Sir, who are the agitator. You brought my name and you brought the Orthodox Church into this discussion, not I. You are the agitator when you say that the Orthodox you  know personally do not act like Satan (in comparison to me). To bring about such a comparison using such a trigger word as Satan, demonstrates who is the agitator and who the victim.

The Orthodox discussion folder was established for one purpose: to ridicule and pour scorn upon the Orthodox believer and the Orthodox Church. You entered that discussion and did nothing but add fuel to the fire as we Orthodox defended ourselves and our Church.

You're a hypocrite, Sir, and I dare say anyone reading your posts on this forum would readily see the truth in this descriptive.

[ollie]

The church is the body of Christ - Ephesians 5:23.


 Roman's 12:3.  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 4.  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
 5.  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10:16.  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
 17.  For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

 1 Corithians 12:12.  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
 13.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 14.  For the body is not one member, but many.

1 Corinthians 12:27.  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 28.  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 1:22.  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23.  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 Ephesians 2:16.  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 Ephesians 4:11.  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 12.  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 13.  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
 14.  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
 15.  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
 16.  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 5:23.  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 Colossians1:18.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


 

[Nostalghia]

Ollie,
I was not being in any way cynical when asking you which denomination you belong to.  Please note that I am speaking humbly, and I speak to you as a brother in Christ. I realize we are all searching for the same thing, and that I am first among sinners, so please do not think I am writting in a way to be insulting, or from arrogance.  
I think we all realize that Christ's truth is Objective, and the second you say "My interpretation" or "My opinion" it becomes subjective.  Since God is the same forever, if any Truth of God's is subjective, God no longer exsists.  This is clear.
All we can know from God is directly revealed to us from the person of the Holy Spirit.  Even the interpretation of the Scriptures must be taken only from the Holy Spirit, knowing that they do not interpret themselves- however this is the wrong thread for that argument.

Now,  I was just asking the question becuase this is important.  I belong to an evangelical church, if you are wondering, and I have no reason to hide this, or the fact that I am examining Orthodoxy.  Of course the definition of the Church is the Body of Christ, I believe this with all my heart!  In fact, we share His flesh and Blood, and thus in this mystery we are united with His resurrected body as One.  When I asked what denomination are you, I was wondering what physical church you goto.  Do you goto church? I do not think this is irrelavant, since we are the Body of Christ- unless you are a Monophysite, and believe that God was only spirit and not body.  The Christian teaching and tradition states that God had a physical Body, and was at the same time 100% spirit. (see the 4th council at Chalcedon) In this way, His Church is also made up of physical believers, in the flesh- just as he *really* was fully man.  It is a physical church mystically united in spirit.  Do you disagree with this statement.  Id love to hear your thoughts on this!

[Nostalghia]

Kerygma-

Hello, I have also read much of your postings on Beliefnet and often find your posts intriguing!  I have been, for the most part, a lurker for the past month, and decided to get in on a couple discussions.
I think, however, it is nessasary, do you agree?  that we must act humbly (and God knows I fail at this!) even in the face of insolence.  This is why we are Christians, and let us not be angry at others, or else they are winning.  If you read St. Ephraim, the starets of Russia in the 19th century, he says that a follower of Christ will never respond to aggression with aggression, but will always be stoic and strong, and especially calm in the face of aggression.  This is the example of Christ.
I appreciate your support though, but I am not Orthodox you know!

[texseraphim]

Folks,  Ollie is a member of the Protestant Fundamentalist denomination that calls it'self THE church of Christ.

(as in one and only)

The reason I know this is that I was raised in the same denomination and I am very familiar with the rhetoric they employ.  (also Ollie has posted links to Campbellite AKA cofC web sites).

They beleive that the Bible (NT only) provides a blueprint to "restoring" the original church back into existance after it became "totally apostate" at almost the very beggining and dissapeared to be replaced by the RCC.  Orthodoxy is a mystery to them, mostly they are not aware of it's existance.

The "blueprint" must be followed exactly to the tee, or one will go to hell.  This is called "patternism".  Anything not "authorised" in the NT is condemned, such as candles, vestments, icons and musical instruments.

The coC Campbellites have existed less than 100 years and are a schism from the Christian Church (disciples of Christ).  They began breaking away when the DoC began installing organs, and other "unauthorised innovations" such as inter-congregational organisations to fund mission work.

Ironically enough, the Christian Church (DoC) founded by Thomas and Alexander Cambell and Barton Stone, began as an effort to unite all Christians into one body, but has splintered into several denominations over such earth shattering issues as whether to have Sunday-school classes, or whether to use a common chalice for the grape juice on communion or seperate mini-glasses.  The congregation of my childhood actually divided over whether it was "scriptural" to build a social hall with a kitchen on church bulding premises.  The two resulting "churches of Christ" now refuse to have anything to do with each other, or even recognise each other as Christians at all.

Of course Ollie will deny all of this, especially he will deny (again) that he is a member of a denomination, just THE Church.  They think that by calling themself THE church of Christ, they become the church of Christ.

To be fair not all campbellites are quite as arrogant as Ollie.  Some will admit to the possibillity of Christians being in "the denominations" (everyone but them).

[Nostalghia]

I have never heard of such a thing.  How can the Church be restored?  I do not understand this movement at all.  How can the Church fall, when the Gates of hell cannot prevail against her?  Id like your answer Ollie, and describe to me the doctrines of this Cambellite church, and I will look at your persuations honestly.  How can one claim to be "THE" Church of God, and yet have started its existence in the 20th century? What Church would this be?  And how could you use the Bible as a blueprint, when the Bible was not intended to be used as a blueprint for the Church- like the OT, becuase they already had the Church at the time the NT was written!  There was no need to write down the practices in epistles that are dealing with specific problems.  But I will accept your reasoning, brother!  Just tell me!

[John the Baptist]

I have never heard of such a thing.  How can the Church be restored?  I do not understand this movement at all.  How can the Church fall, when the Gates of hell cannot prevail against her?  Id like your answer Ollie, and describe to me the doctrines of this Cambellite church, and I will look at your persuations honestly.  How can one claim to be "THE" Church of God, and yet have started its existence in the 20th century? What Church would this be?  And how could you use the Bible as a blueprint, when the Bible was not intended to be used as a blueprint for the Church- like the OT, becuase they already had the Church at the time the NT was written!  There was no need to write down the practices in epistles that are dealing with specific problems.  But I will accept your reasoning, brother!  Just tell me!

*********
Truth does not fall! People & WHOLE denominations do, Have & will! Christ wants us UNITED ORGANIZED & 'IN' HIS DOCTRINES. AND YES, THAT IS [ONE] DENOMINATIONAL FOLD! See John 10:16-Eph. 4:5 & Rev. 18:4 But THAT IS NOT this thread starter's denomination, church or what have you?
God IS A GOD OF ORDER, and it was Christ that sent Paul to HIS ORGANIZED CHURCH! One that HE gave the 'keys of the kingdon'!

The FALLING AWAY or the SHAKING REMOVES EITHER a person, persons, OR A WHOLE DENOMINATION. Israel of old for the first! Matt. 23:38. Then we see Rev. 2:5 for the whole (denomination) CANDLESTICK being subject to removal by CHRIST! Read Rev. 3:9, who are these ones?

The saved ORGANIZED  DENOMINATION of Rev. 12:17 WILL KEEP ALL OF GODS COMMANDMENTS INCLUDING THE FOURTH ONE! The 7th. day, not the first working one!
---John

[ollie]

Ollie,
I was not being in any way cynical when asking you which denomination you belong to.  Please note that I am speaking humbly, and I speak to you as a brother in Christ. I realize we are all searching for the same thing, and that I am first among sinners, so please do not think I am writting in a way to be insulting, or from arrogance.  
I think we all realize that Christ's truth is Objective, and the second you say "My interpretation" or "My opinion" it becomes subjective.  Since God is the same forever, if any Truth of God's is subjective, God no longer exsists.  This is clear.
All we can know from God is directly revealed to us from the person of the Holy Spirit.  Even the interpretation of the Scriptures must be taken only from the Holy Spirit, knowing that they do not interpret themselves- however this is the wrong thread for that argument.

Now,  I was just asking the question becuase this is important.  I belong to an evangelical church, if you are wondering, and I have no reason to hide this, or the fact that I am examining Orthodoxy.  Of course the definition of the Church is the Body of Christ, I believe this with all my heart!  In fact, we share His flesh and Blood, and thus in this mystery we are united with His resurrected body as One.  When I asked what denomination are you, I was wondering what physical church you goto.  Do you goto church? I do not think this is irrelavant, since we are the Body of Christ- unless you are a Monophysite, and believe that God was only spirit and not body.  The Christian teaching and tradition states that God had a physical Body, and was at the same time 100% spirit. (see the 4th council at Chalcedon) In this way, His Church is also made up of physical believers, in the flesh- just as he *really* was fully man.  It is a physical church mystically united in spirit.  Do you disagree with this statement.  Id love to hear your thoughts on this!

Hi,

I did not think you were being cynical when asking the question of "what denomination".

I do not go to church. How can one go to the church? It is too vast physically and spiritually. One can only go to the assemblies of a local congregation of God's people.

I assemble with a congregation of the ecclesia in my local area.

I agree, when God's people assemble they are united in Spirit.
They are also united in Spirit when they are not publicly assembled. God's people come together to worship, pray, sing, study, confess, edify, admonish, and to partake of the communion. All to the glory of God.

I donot believe it is mystical, but all that is necessary for man to know of God has been clearly revealed by God through the Holy Spirit to inspired men. Today we have it as the Bible. It is complete and thoroughly furnishes one to the works of God.

In the love of Christ,
Ollie

[ollie]

The church of Christ has never been in need of restoration.
It has been since the day of pentacost as related in Acts 2.


Preaching of the truth of God instead of men's religion is what was missing. Then when God's word was heard and  believed and obeyed, the obedient were added to the church and once more became a visible physical evidence of Christ's church.