Woman Preachers

[loneranger]

Jesus;
    In Ezekiel 47  there is a river that flows out from the throne of God, the further along this river gets the deeper it gets.  This speaks of more revelation, deeper truths that we chrsitians get as we  go deeper in the things of God.
   All of us have some doctrines that are false.  If God refused to use anyone who had any false doctrines , God would not  be using anyone.  God is always calling us out deeper into the things of god. We don't always go.
   I dont know if women with short hair and women preachers are sinning if they believe the bible doesnt condemn it.  BEcause I believe the bible condemns it.  I suppose God has sent them blindness in this area so that they wont be sinning willfully but in ignorance. Or maybeits like in james,"James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. "  They dont know to do good by having long hair and not teaching men so its not sin to them.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Perhaps there is no law for them against short hair and usurping authority over men and their conscience is clean.
  I will say this though , that there is comming a time when God will come down like the rain, when the church will reach maturity and Christ will have a perfect bride formed. At that time people will have a choice to make , either to enter into the move of God and be perfected, (just before the rapture) or remain outside and attack it.  There are christians who will see many wonderfull marvelous miracles, healings, things nver before seen and will reject it because it doesnt fit in their churchs doctrines. They will miss out and have to go through the tribulation and either be maryterd or take the mark of the beast and loose their salvation.  ONly the perfected bride of christ will make the rapture.

[Jesussavedusall]

Really? I didn't know that ignorance was an excuse for sin.

[Allinall]

They dont know to do good by having long hair and not teaching men so its not sin to them.

It is important to take that verse contextually brother.  James is teaching us that what might be sin for one man, may not be sin for another.  He is not teaching that it is only sin if we know that it is wrong.  As for what he is teaching, let me illustrate:

Say a guy, before he gets saved, went bowling every Saturday night.  He'd be out late, drink, smoke, leer, maybe even leave there to pursue other vices as well.  Then he is graciously and wonderfully saved by God Almighty.  Now...would it be wrong for him to go bowling?  "No!" some might say.  After all, there is no verse that says "Thou shalt not bowl!"  Yet, if this man goes bowling, he will expose himself to many temptations that may be his downfall.  For this man to go bowling would not be right, and for him, would be a sin.  Uniquely, this is the same guy who wouldn't go bowling because of what he equates bowling to.  This is also the guy who will be offended if a brother in Christ without his past goes bowling.

Long illustration to prove a simple point: when God says no, we are guilty if we disobey regardless of our ignorance to the contrary.  When God says no to me, He may not say no to you.  Priority or precept.

[loneranger]

All & Jesus;  
    I do not think women with short hair and women who usurp authority over men by preaching and being pastors (pastorettes?) are sinning if they believe it is ok.  I also do not think God is convicting them of it.  Every Christian has some verses in the bible that he or she disobeys.  Are you sinning because you dont kiss your brothers and sisters with God's love as the bible commands in 1 pet 5:14? No, I don't think so.  Even though it is straight forward and repeated some 4 or 5 times in other verses, you have no doubt found away around that verse, just as women preachers with short hair have  found a way around Timothy I 2:12" But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. " and Corinthians I 11:15" But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. "Corinthians I 11:6" For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. "
  You no doubt say something like, " oh if i kiss somebodys wife I'll be tempted to have sex with her so I'm not going to kiss anyone" and you therefore have found a justifiable way around Peter I 5:14"Greet one another with the kiss of love. Peace to all of you that are in Christ. " ( the word translated love here is agape, which means God's love).  Same thing with women preachers with long hair.

[Petro]

Desiring to do ones own will, inspite of what Gods word commands, does not excuse the individual of the offense, Gods own word says transgression of the Lords commands is sin.

And ignorance does not excuse anyone.

The command for women to be silent in the congregation is given by Jesus himself, according to Paul;

1 Cor 14
34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

I guess woman preachers don't consider themseves spiritual or prophets; if this is so, why do men sit and are taught by them, is it because they see themselves as unlearned??

Bot, Claiming ignorance while preaching Gods Word or allowing themselves to be taught, doesn't wash.

Any woman who preaches Gods Word to men, in a church gathering setting, is usurping God Himself.

For sure this woman whoever she may be is ignorant, and whats worse is that any man who sits down to be taught by her, is more ignorant then she is.

When a person (woman or man) willingly rejects an explicit command by Jesus, it simply manifests the persons spiritual condition or better said, the lack of any spirituallity.

There is no excuse, and clearly this is open rebellion against God himself and;

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

How can anyone who breaks the Command preach obedience to Gods commands??

In practicing rebellion and sedition in the name of God, agaisnt Gods command, they seal their own fate.

How can one claim to believe Jesus, and practice contrary to His known WILL.

He has commanded women remain silent in the churches.

Professing themselves to be wise they become as fools.

It is only because we live in the age of grace that we are NOT consumed by God, when we sin.

Blessings,
Petro

[Allinall]

Lone,

I tend to believe the passage concerning hair on both parts, male and female, is in order to provide a distinction.  I could be wrong.  But on the issue of women preachers, God clearly denies the practice.  He says no woman is to teach, or have authority over a man.  He also says that when a man desires the office he must meet certain criteria, one of which is being the husband of one wife.  The gender specifics are undeniable in the original Greek.  Man means man.  The problem is when we think God is being chauvenistic.  We aren't viewing God in the proper light.  I mentioned this on another thread I think, but God even gives us a example of this authority structure in His very Person.  The Father is the Head, the Son is subordinate to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to Them Both.  The Son is no less God than the Father, and the Holy Spirit is no less God than the Son or the Father.  Rather, there is an order that God has designed in His Own Person, that He expects in His creation.  The man is the head, not because he's better or stronger, but because that's how God designed it.  Paul even points out that as far as God is concerned, there is no difference in the two genders.  Only in the responsibilities that He has given to each.

I encourage you to study more on this and see where God is coming from.  It's very easy to come to the word of God with our preconceived notions of how things ought to be.  Believe me, I've done my fair share!  But the important thing is that we come to the word to learn God's thoughts on how things are, and accept them in faith.  

[loneranger]

petro, allinall;  I agree that the scriptures on hair length and women usurping authority over men are clear cut and quite clear.  I believe that it is wrong for women to preach for women to have short hair, and men to have long hair.  what I am saying is that some people do not interpret those scriptures that way, and for them it is not a sin to be a woman preacher.
 Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Corinthians I 16:20 All the brethren send greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Corinthians II 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
eter I 5:14 Greet one another with the kiss of love.
  99.9 percent of all christians do not  greet their brethern and sisters with kisses. Actually, the figure may be even higher than that. yet those scritpures are straight forward and clear cut. So by you guys reasoning, all of you are sinning.  You don't greet christians with a kiss, you have found a way around those scriptures.  Likewise, women preachers have found a way around the scriptures against women preachers.  I say that their conscience is clean because their understanding permits them to preach and wear short hair and wear pants and try and look like a man. I say your conscience is clean because your understanding doesnt permit you to kiss anyone in the church.

[Petro]

petro, allinall;  I agree that the scriptures on hair length and women usurping authority over men are clear cut and quite clear.  I believe that it is wrong for women to preach for women to have short hair, and men to have long hair.  what I am saying is that some people do not interpret those scriptures that way, and for them it is not a sin to be a woman preacher.

Unfortunately, Christians do not havce the luxury of deciding what sin is, or is not.

Disobedience is the reason for mans dilema of sin unto death.

It is not a matter of a woman or any man, being a Christian and willingly disobeying the commandment is excused by claiming ignorance, this is nonsense.

Your own interpretation of the verses you put forth are flawed.

It is clear the children of God are to do good, begining with obedience to Gods Word.

Here is the verse again;

James 4
17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You presume, these do not know what is sin.

Consider this verses;

Heb 5
13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Would I presumptious to believe that a preacher of Gods Word
is ignorant of what it teaches??

Is it good to obey God or disobey God?

Clearly these willingly disobey, knowing the truth of the matter, if they didn't in the begining, they have heard, even from the arguments put forth by women herein, shows they know better, but simply choose to ignore God.

Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Corinthians I 16:20 All the brethren send greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Corinthians II 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
eter I 5:14 Greet one another with the kiss of love.
  99.9 percent of all christians do not  greet their brethern and sisters with kisses.

How do you connect this to be a commandment of God.

One could start a whole new religion on the priciples you expound, and many do.

Jesus condemned this very thing, which you say, ought to be obeyed;

Mat 15
8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Actually, the figure may be even higher than that. yet those scritpures are straight forward and clear cut. So by you guys reasoning, all of you are sinning.  You don't greet christians with a kiss, you have found a way around those scriptures.

Connect the dots for us.  Please..

Likewise, women preachers have found a way around the scriptures against women preachers.  I say that their conscience is clean because their understanding permits them to preach and wear short hair and wear pants and try and look like a man. I say your conscience is clean because your understanding doesnt permit you to kiss anyone in the church.

Nonsense, pure and simple...


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

I suppose the next argument is going to be, that woman preachers are babes in Christ............

Please tell me this isn't so..

Petro

[suzie]

women preachers? Of course.

We are colored by our cultural and traditional interpretations. God calls and uses and gifts those as He chooses.

[Petro]

See what I mean?

Never mind what, Jesus's will is in this matter, being politically correct in this generation is of the utmost importance.

After all God forbid, someone might condmen us for having cultural or traditional differences.

We ought to obey God rather than men.


Amen??


Pedtro

[Forrest]

See what I mean?

Never mind what, Jesus's will is in this matter, being politically correct in this generation is of the utmost importance.

After all God forbid, someone might condmen us for having cultural or traditional differences.

We ought to obey God rather than men.


Amen??


Pedtro

             Pedtro;  
       As to being politically correct  

       

We ought to obey God rather than men.


Amen??

                     AMEN!

[suzie]

As much as you would like to see this as a "politically correct" movement, those who embrace the egaltarian position also hold Scripture as high authority and believe that it is championing the realities that have always been part of God's Word and plan.

[Petro]

As much as you would like to see this as a "politically correct" movement, those who embrace the egaltarian position also hold Scripture as high authority and believe that it is championing the realities that have always been part of God's Word and plan.

suzie,

From where comest thou, from walking to and fro on the face of the earth.

Ohhh, geeeh, these you refer to, must be of the same mind with those who seated a practicing homosexual bishop recently.

How comforting, it must be for you, to know these religious humanists, are liberating the sinners from the tyrantical hand of god.

whoooopeeee....suzie..


Petro

[suzie]

Gee, Petro, why couldnt I see that .....that since I believe that Scripture shows God annointing women as pastors as well as men, and in fact that the Bible shows women are equal to men in all aspects of being in Christ, whether "role" wise or spiritual -wise, that I must also desire for homosexuality to be "OK" with God. That would be also the belief and mindset of all the resources and biblical egaltarians.... and not just a sweeping broadbased generalization with no credibility or basis to it......
Your position would have to be right, wouldnt it? You have learned this and have a few Scriptures to hold up as basis wouldnt you?  This couldnt be anything like the "social" or "humanitarian" view that some held about slavery. That those who held tightly to Scripture citing verses that "clearly showed" slavery was the will of God , that men were "blessed" by God to own slaves and well, those slaves were also just darned blessed to be able to have a Christian slaveowner who would "take care" and "provide" for them because well that is the way God deemed it to be.....it was through much bloodshed and lost lives that somehow another look was taken at Scripture and even though it was held to be the truth for so long, they came to realize that their interpretation was, well, wrong.  The Scriptures were all still the same, but how they were viewed was not.

So, that gives me great understanding when someone like you "sets me straight" by giving those profound remarks you make, especially in the means that you do so and knowing that you know so well that you have the "truth" you dont even have to look any further.