Christians Against Israel?

[Reba]

Jesus is the Word, right?
The Word of God.
The Word of God (bible) is the inspired Word, correct? "ALL scripture is God-breathed..."

We agree 100%

There were plenty of scriptures (inspired Word that speak of Jesus) posted that tell of a coming earthly kingdom and reign.

Chapter and verse please.

Do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes

                    ***********************
I grew up on dispy teaching Dad was a AofG pastor. I will be 58 this year. I tell you this because we do not know each other and background can be helpfull in the forums.

[JudgeNot]

Good morning Reba!
Here’s a couple of verses I believe indicate an Earthly Kingdom:

Zechariah 14:4  
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives…
The Lord physically comes to earth.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
There are no verses in Zechariah 14 that indicate the Lord returns to heaven to rule from there, but all indications are He remains in Jerusalem.

What’s your take on these verses from your teachings? – or Zechariah 14 as a whole?
God bless,
JN

[AJ]

The Coming physical kingdom of God is in the OT prophecies and the book of Revelation...we need to look for them if we are Preterist, and separate them from the spiritual sayings of Christ. Same goes for the New Heaven and Earth that God will create for this everlasting Kingdom. There are spiritual sayings about this kingdom, and physical sayings as well... if we divide the word... all will fall into place. Remember Jesus and Nicodemus? One of my fav Scriptures for this coming kingdom is found in Daniel 7:14

Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not
be destroyed.

Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him


Are all people, nations, and languages, serveing Christ yet? No... but they will after he comes with the clouds of heaven.

God Bless you all

[Reba]

Good morning Reba!
Here’s a couple of verses I believe indicate an Earthly Kingdom:

Zechariah 14:4  
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives…
The Lord physically comes to earth.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
There are no verses in Zechariah 14 that indicate the Lord returns to heaven to rule from there, but all indications are He remains in Jerusalem.

What’s your take on these verses from your teachings? – or Zechariah 14 as a whole?
God bless,
JN

  Smart Move X using the word indicate!  

I will try and put my thoughts in words the best way for me to do that is to ask questions, or make simple one line statments...

I do not understand Zec to be literal.

Do you? and if you do what are the living waters in verse 8?

Literaly verse 4  the mount of olives splits 4 ways and makes a great valley.It splits east from west and then moves north from south.  Mt Olive is about 700 yards from the temple  mount. This is valley the the living waters flow from.

You well remember i am not good at this X
 
Matt 21:1
21:1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
KJV
Luke 19:37-38

37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
KJV

Seems a lot happened coming off of the Mt. of Olives. The begining of the CROSS (sorta) Could it be that the mount of olives symbolic of   " olive oil" or the Holy Spirit...


What is see as the difference is the CROSS the CROSS of Christ is the center of all history ( i am not talking of years but of value) The OT looked to the CROSS the NT looks to the CROSS.

As for Christ reigning... He sets at the right hand of the Father.  He has all power in Heaven and earth.  He claimed to Pilate to have a kingdom " My kingdom". He preached the kingdom. God tell us in Romans via Paul what the kingdom is...

Rom 14:17

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
KJV

I would that my thoughts of scripture, the doctrines i see etc. would or could 'fit into' the very words of Jesus. Not that  ALL of scripture is not Thee Word, but that Jesus understood scritpure and explained it better ....

I am ready pick my humble words apart  

[Evangelist]

Chapter and verse please.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12   His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Of course, this is a period of time preceeding the GWTJ, consists of 1,000 years of earthly reign.  As an orthodox preterist, I wouldn't expect you to agree, though.
Mat 25:31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

As previously posted. I also have quite a few more, if you would like them.

***********************

I'm not a "traditional" dispy. I'm 64, and began preaching in '52 as a child evangelist. I've never been to seminary, and I don't "study" or read very much outside of the Bible, although I'm quite familiar with what many others are teaching and writing about. Try as hard as I can, I haven't been able to turn clear references in The Word about an earthly throne and kingdom into allegorical or spiritualized references, nor have I been able to make the tribulation period past tense and condensed to only 2 years (69-71 AD). I also can't figure out how a "millennium", or 1,000 year period can be stretched out to 2000 plus........, nor can I equate the observable condition of the world today as being synonymous with a time of peace, prosperity, health and general well-being. Haven't been able to find any swords beaten into plowshares, or any lions and lambs playing footsie.

[Reba]

Isa 9;7 does not say His kingdom is earthly

Psa 132:11 does not say anything about an earthly kingdom

Shall i go on? The verses posted do not say The kingdom of God ( use the phrase you choose) is earthly, or will be earthly. Then add that Christ Himself said it was not of this world, and tells us it is rightiousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost....i guess we could repete these verses back and forth fora while   .

I have been told here at CU that Jesus is co-regent with David.... Now that floored me.

Thanks for the quick personal history it really helps.  

[Shylynne]

The Tale of Two Jerusalems / a current read,  thought I would share the link
http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/debate3.html

[Evangelist]

Isa 9;7 does not say His kingdom is earthly
Psa 132:11 does not say anything about an earthly kingdom

Isa 9....just where do you think David's throne is? Originally, it was in Jerusalem. When he died it was still there. I'm sure it has long since disappeared, but it's pretty plain that David sat on a physical throne ruling a physical nation from a physical place on this physical earth.

Psa 132....same thing applies....."of the fruit (physical) of thy body (physical)....set upon thy throne (physical).

Yes, we could go on forever, and forever you will continue to spiritualize the physical, so no need.

[Reba]

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


My last shot ....


lets take this verse literally...it says "even for ever" then David is still king on the throne correct?  

Been a pleasent disagreemeant  Evangelist thanks for the conversation  

[Evangelist]

lets take this verse literally...it says "even for ever" then David is still king on the throne correct? 

The subject of the conversation is not David, but his successor...the one promised by God to be raised up of David's flesh (line) to ascend the throne. It is HIS government that will increase, and bring peace, and establish with judgment and justice "even forever".

Please note that at the time Jesus returns to the earth and establishes His Millennial Kingdom (Rev 20), it goes for 1,000 years, and is followed by the GWTJ, followed by eternity on the new earth and heavens in the New Jerusalem.....ergo, when Jesus begins His reign, it goes on "even for ever".

Yes, it has been pleasant. Thank you too!

[Reba]

You made my point well Evanglest.

[Evangelist]

You made my point well Evanglest.

Ahhhhh....I don't think so. Unless I have completely misunderstood, your "point" is that there is no earthly throne for Jesus, He does not rule on this earth. In line with preterist thinking, the tribulation has already occurred, the millennium is now, and when Jesus returns it will be hasta la vista via the GWTJ.

That is NOT what I said.  

[Reba]

The point is  Isa is about Jesus HE is my King. He is your king also correct. You will say say HE is not your king HE sets at the right hand of the Father...


Sheeesh a few posts back i said no more i hate when i fib  


Shall we find a different topic to disagree about  Evanglist?  


Your ever seen the cartoon  CATDOG ?  

[Evangelist]

The point is  Isa is about Jesus HE is my King. He is your king also correct. You will say say HE is not your king HE sets at the right hand of the Father...

Ahhhhh....hmmmmm.....you lost me. I will say HE is NOT my king? I don't think so.

You are correct....the Isaiah passage is about Jesus, and how He is going to sit upon the throne of David. Right now He is sitting at the right hand of the Father....not upon the throne of David....that comes later.

Sheeesh a few posts back i said no more i hate when i fib

 

Me too.  

Shall we find a different topic to disagree about  Evanglist?

 

Ok. How about when the book of Revelation was written?

 

Your ever seen the cartoon  CATDOG ?

 

No, don't think so. Is that anything like a HeShe?  

[sincereheart]

Your ever seen the cartoon  CATDOG ?
 
No, don't think so. Is that anything like a HeShe?

A cat on one end, and a dog on the other—what do you call it? CatDog, of course!

Cat and Dog have been sharing quarters (hind quarters, that is) since they were born, which hasn't been easy since they're as different as well, cats and dogs. Dog loves rock n' roll, Cat doesn't. Dog lives to chase garbage trucks, Cat REALLLLLY doesn't. But believe it or not, they're the best of friends and they really stick together—they don't have any choice!