Paul2, in Post #16:
<< Why isn't the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>
I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head." Revelation 12: 1 NIV
The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
Hmm. I'm not sure I follow you here Dale. The church is going to birth the second coming? I would very much like to hear what other scripture you can offer to show this to be true. Lets examine the verses in this chapter a little bit.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. The woman, brings forth a manchild, which you believe is the second coming. Now, this child according to John, was born
and the last half of verse 5 says that this child was caught up to God and to his throne. So the
second coming is going to be caught up to God and his throne going by your description. This makes no sense to me, but lets continue...
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
This verse now shows the church (as you describe) fleeing into the wilderness, after she gives birth to the second coming which is caught up into heaven? Do you see the problem here? I really don't understand how one can make sense of these things the way you describe them.
The way I read it, the manchild is Christ who will rule with an Iron Rod (see Psalms 2:7-9 for a clear explanation of the ONE who is begotten of God and will rule with an Iron Rod), and the woman is Israel who will be protected by God in the desert for the last half of the tribulation (Jeremiah 30 and 31 eludes to this). For
biblical description of these symbols sun, moon, stars etc... see Gen 37:9 I believe these describe Jacob-father, Sarah-mother, Joseph-son and his eleven brothers who are the forefathers (tribes) of the nation of Israel which God promised the messiah would come....the manchild who will rule with an Iron Rod. Scripture interpriting scripture.
It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!
To understand Revelation correctly, you must first observe the conditions given to John by the Lord. These give the outline of things John is to record throughout the book.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast
seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; and at the end of Revelation John explains...
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them.
So John writes down everything he see's and hears, past, present, and future. He describes things he had already seen in chapter 1, things that are present chapter 2 through chapter 3, and future things chapter 4 and later (3 specific parts of the book). There is clearly shift from present tense to future tense going by the words starting in chapter four...
Rev 4:1
After this (present things) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and
I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (later on....future things).
John saw things that happened "hereafter", litterally in the future. Is it really so hard to imagine that God is able to show John events that will transpire at a much later date? If we accept Gods instruction to his bondservant John, and read the text plainly as John was instructed to record it by the Lord, we will begin to make sense of this important revelation that God has provided us with.
TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>
The only people ever sealed with Gods protection in Revelation are those who are members of the tribes of Israel. Note that John recorded (as intructed) the number he heard.
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the
tribes of the children of Israel.
He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.
Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation. Nothing here about the church being preserved from wrath. That promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Grace and Peace!
