Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?

[Soldier4Christ]

The funny thing you people seem to forget is that there WERE NO TERRORIST THREATS IN IRAQ UNTIL WE INVADED!

Now all the terrorists who were headed to Afgahnistan went to IRAQ and OSAMA BIN LADEN (the REAL threat) is still on the loose. But I guess what you really want is a war with any muslims so you will simply ignore these FACTS and support an unjust war.

And I don't know what sources you are refering to since I think I linked to an independent poll. Bush may have won the election but he's losing the war.  

Crystal my friend.
 There were no terrorist threats in Iraq pre war because the terrorists were running the country. That comment about "But I guess what you really want is a war with any muslims" is way out of line my brother. Even though you get people's backs against the wall with your contrasting positions on many topics, I still respected your opinions and your right to argue them, but that statement is just ugly my brother.

Bronzesnake

Is it? So my comment is ugly but BEP denigrating my military service is okey dokey? How very Christian of you all.
This is why I take issue with fundamentalists. I find them to be exclusionary and hypocritical. You're going to put down another Christian just because my political views are different than yours? Shame on you.

I'm positive that you calling yourself a Marine is a pain and embarrassment to the real Marines.

I do not see where he denigrated your time in service, just your attitude and how other Marines might react to that attitude. I must admit that many of them would feel just that way.

[nChrist]

CrystalClear,

Pastor Roger is quite correct. I said absolutely nothing about your service. In fact, I don't know if you served or not. If so, I have no clue about the character of that service.

I do know absolutely how you are serving on this forum, and that's what I based my comments on. I would go much further than saying that you have an attitude problem. Your running mouth is actually hurting our people in the Armed services and their families. The real Marines that I know would do much more than talk about your attitude if they heard you talking. If what you are saying now is a true characterization of you, you wouldn't make a good pimple on a real Marine.

IF you did serve as a Marine and ran your mouth this same way, you would be booted as unacceptable. We talk and act pretty nice here. I would NOT suggest that you go around real Marines and talk like you do here. I think there would be more than talking involved, and you wouldn't like it. Your words now are serving the enemy and hurting those who are doing the fighting and dying - AND their families. If you checked, there might even be some terrorist organizations who would give you a pay check for what you are doing now. Give them half a chance, and they'll try to recruit you. BUT, you are working for them free right now.

[Soldier4Christ]

Beps,

BUT, you are working for them free right now.

You sure about that?  

Seriously, I know a forum that is full of Marines that would have torn him apart just because he said that he was a "former" Marine. "Once A Marine Always A Marine" . Call them a Veteran, say they are former Military, but never say they are a "former" Marine. His other comments would have really roused a nasty response not fit for the eyes of anyone Christian or not.

Crystalclear,

By the way, where and when did you serve?

[musicllover]

Yes Bush did win as you all like to cleverly point out. I said it before and I'll say it again for those of you unable to read anything other than what you want see:

I do not support Kerry nor Bush because they are both wrong for the job. So don't label me a leftist or an ultra-liberal.

The funny thing you people seem to forget is that there WERE NO TERRORIST THREATS IN IRAQ UNTIL WE INVADED!

Now all the terrorists who were headed to Afgahnistan went to IRAQ and OSAMA BIN LADEN (the REAL threat) is still on the loose. But I guess what you really want is a war with any muslims so you will simply ignore these FACTS and support an unjust war.

And I don't know what sources you are refering to since I think I linked to an independent poll. Bush may have won the election but he's losing the war.  

Crystal,
           you siad...The funny thing you people seem to forget is that there WERE NO TERRORIST THREATS IN IRAQ UNTIL WE INVADED!......

LOL.... does the devil hang out in the bars on Sat night, does he tempt the drug addict,? NO cuase he already has them doing just what he wants, the devil tempts CHristians, so why would  terrorist threaten one of there own? Hussein was footing the bill for some of thier acts, allowoing them to train in Iraq, giving them refuge, hiding them, he himself was a terrorist. The terrorist are attack anyone in Iraq now because they want control of the land/oil. But since the USA is there does that show they would attack the land and the people of the USA as well if they weren't so busy in Iraq?
    I would look at ever picture I could find when my son was there, and in one of those picture it showed the Caat Red doing some clean up early on in the conflict where Husseins henchman had sat fire to thier own oil wells. In one of the towns was a painting on a wall of the Twin towers being hit by an air plane.... small town close to the Iraqi border, painted by Hussen's people he enjoyed what happen to the people in the twin towers, he encouraged it and praised those who done it, and help foot the bill to do it. Some of our troups found old, Iraqi news papers showing pictures of the attack claiming victory for the Iraqi people.
      I don't like war, its terrible that anyone die in such terrilbe ways, I dont glorify it at all. But you say you served your country, would you do it again?  Isnt American worth fighting for? Or was it ok that we were attacked, do you have any gurantee that we would not have been attacked again? They have also found documents showing proof that further attacks were being planned, they have salalite pictures of a major convoy leaving Iraq before the conflict (possilby moving Weapons of mass descruction) they have found several blue prints of schools in the USA......SCHOOLS where our children attend classes everyday. DO we just wait until they kill our children? The world trade center had been attack under clintons administartion and nothing was done, a slap on the wrist, they blew up a ship killing several of our men, nothing was done, I believe it was time we stop letting them blow us up. Muslims believe they kill a christain they will have immediate entrance into their heaven....so any Christian is a target for them. Bin Laden begun this war, true, and we are still searching for him, but again how do we handle the Bin Laden of this world?  What would you have the USA do if you were Commander and chief. Give us a senerio of your idea of a good leader and President.
        musicllover

[musicllover]

Just thought of this....who started this thread anyway? I aksed him/her a quesiton several post back and got no response. Just like my dog, when she eats the wrong food, does her dirty business jumps up to find a new spot and goes again.

I'm too defensive sometimes but I'm a MOM, (mom of a marine)
 

[Shammu]

Just thought of this....who started this thread anyway? I aksed him/her a quesiton several post back and got no response. Just like my dog, when she eats the wrong food, does her dirty business jumps up to find a new spot and goes again.

I'm too defensive sometimes but I'm a MOM, (mom of a marine)
 

A person that has gone away.

[Bronzesnake]

Crystal quote...

 

Is it? So my comment is ugly but BEP denigrating my military service is okey dokey? How very Christian of you all.
This is why I take issue with fundamentalists. I find them to be exclusionary and hypocritical. You're going to put down another Christian just because my political views are different than yours? Shame on you.

 Hey, I'm not a referee Crystal. I simply responded to a comment that you made, and it was wrong, just admit it and carry on my friend.

 It's ironic that you call me what you consider to be derogatory names such as "fundie" then you accuse me of being "exclusionary and hypocritical" - you accuse me of putting you down when I did no such thing...you put me down my friend.

 Let's take a deep breath and carry on debating.

 Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

Crystal quote...

 

Is it? So my comment is ugly but BEP denigrating my military service is okey dokey? How very Christian of you all.
This is why I take issue with fundamentalists. I find them to be exclusionary and hypocritical. You're going to put down another Christian just because my political views are different than yours? Shame on you.

 Hey, I'm not a referee Crystal. I simply responded to a comment that you made, and it was wrong, just admit it and carry on my friend.

 It's ironic that you call me what you consider to be derogatory names such as "fundie" then you accuse me of being "exclusionary and hypocritical" - you accuse me of putting you down when I did no such thing...you put me down my friend.

 Let's take a deep breath and carry on debating.

 Bronzesnake

I prayed on this last night and the answer is clear to me now. To those of you who make personal attacks on me because my point of view is different than yours, I forgive you and pray for you. You may speculate about all you like about my service. I served with honor, my MOS(s) were 0311/0331/8151 (with a top secret clearence at Marine Barracks NSB Bangor) There is more and it's not open for discussion. Once a Marine, always a Marine and there are no ex-Marines only Former Marines. Surely any Marine will tell you this.

As for my comment about wanting to war with muslims. If you are guilty of feeling this way then I make no apology for pointing my finger at you. If you do not feel this way then I have nothing to apologize for since I wasn't speaking to or about you.

Bronzesnake, I appreciate our conversations and debates. Do not take my calling you a "fundie" as derogatory, I use the word only to classify your position. If you were to call me a centrist I would not be offended. If however you or anyone was offended by the word "fundie" (just a shortened form for speed anyway) because you are not a fundamentalist then I apologize to you even though I was obviously not speaking to you.

I am sorry but I will not respond to people who must attack me out of fear for my point of view.

I certainly see no point in discussing the justification of war in general with a person(s) who still believes Vietnam was a just war. I salute your service but as with Iraq I condemn the government who wrongly sent you there. Most of the men in my family have served including my father who was an AirForce pilot in Vietnam. I lost 2 relatives with another wounded in Vietnam and have known and respected many servicemen and women who were there as well.

Peace

[Reba]

I'm glad we all agree that support of our troops is ESSENTIAL! Amen to all of you!  

Bronzesnake, I'm glad that you are willing to argue with me in an adult manner! Thank you!

However, nothing in your last post (while I agree with almost all of what you said) gives us the right to invade a country that did not attack us. Period. Not only does it not give us the right to invade them but it is even worse to invade and try to impose a government of our choosing. Yes, I know there will be *snicker* elections this month but we decided what type of government is best for them...

Gremany nor Italy invaded the USA yet you stated WWI and WWII were valid.

[Reba]

I'm new here so forgive me for bringing back such an old thread. That being said, I just read through all 8 pages and I have to say I am dismayed at what I read here.

First off I will also admit that I am not a Bush supporter but then again I am NOT a Kerry supporter.I voted for Reagan, Clinton and Gore.   I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates.
Now that I have quelled any suspicion of my political agenda I will say that, I am against war in general and while I understand sometimes war is necessary I believe in this day and age it should be used as a last resort. Jesus released us from the covenant of the OT and ushered in the age of grace and peace. Love they enemy, turn the other cheek...

As I said war is sometimes necessary but only if it is a righteous cause. Bush took advantage of our patriotism at a time when we were vulnerable with fear. The administration forced information which was faulty or false in order to pursue some agenda. Before 9/11 this administration claimed that Saddam was no threat to anyone due to the sanctions and the destruction of it's military. This PROVED true as we rolled into Baghdad having faced almost no resistance along the way.

Is the world better off without Saddam in power? Sure, but we could say that about ALL of the leaders of the middle east and about 100 more elsewhere in the world. Some like IRAN and N. KOREA are 1000x more dangerous to the US than Saddam EVER was.
Would a democracy in the middle east be a good thing? Sure but no one with any intimate knowlege of the region thinks this will work out. Why? Because the mind of the middle east is not modern enough to understand the implications and freedoms of a democratic society.

Someone mentioned that this war is a mandate from God... Are you serious? Do you REALLY think God is directing George W. Bush in a holy war against Islam? George, who didn't "find Jesus" until he decided to move into politics where it was benificial?. Come on, Jesus doesn't want us to perpetrate another crusade, he wants us to spread the word and bring the unbelievers to him through love and grace.

I think you should take a good hard look at the POLICIES of the republican party instead of focusing on their position on gay marriage and abortion as this country is in pretty sad shape financially and socially.

Whew!  

I voted for Reagan, Clinton and Gore.

 by the above statment ...You voted for the killing of thousands of babies your words of antiwar ring untrue. The war on the unborn is unjust and you voted for it. The blood of those dead babies is on your hands. Your message is hollow.

[CrystalClear]

I'm glad we all agree that support of our troops is ESSENTIAL! Amen to all of you!  

Bronzesnake, I'm glad that you are willing to argue with me in an adult manner! Thank you!

However, nothing in your last post (while I agree with almost all of what you said) gives us the right to invade a country that did not attack us. Period. Not only does it not give us the right to invade them but it is even worse to invade and try to impose a government of our choosing. Yes, I know there will be *snicker* elections this month but we decided what type of government is best for them...

Gremany nor Italy invaded the USA yet you stated WWI and WWII were valid.

LOL... did you want to debate that position?

[CrystalClear]

I voted for Reagan, Clinton and Gore.

by the above statment ...You voted for the killing of thousands of babies your words of antiwar ring untrue. The war on the unborn is unjust and you voted for it. The blood of those dead babies is on your hands. Your message is hollow.

I'll accept my bloody hands if you accept yours.

Did you want to debate something or just make a personal attack on me?

[Reba]

by your vote your debate is hollow

[thommy]

Hi all!  

I have been a long time casual observer of this forum, and I have, over the months, found its discuaaion interesting, and sometimes a little entertaining.  However, I have decided to finally take the plunge as it were and write my first post, and I apologise in advance for any errors herein.

I decided to write today in responce to what I have seen in this particular thread as being a little frightening.  It seems as though many of you are eager to attack this CrystalClear guy, for doing exactly what is excpected of him in not only in this "debate" section, but as a good citizen of the U.S., and that is to question, and hold accountable our leaders.  While many of you are unabashedly pro operation Iraqi freedom, many recent polls are showing that the nation is almost perfectly split on the issue.  You say that he is somehow helping the terrorist by debating?  come on folks, I'm sure everyone can see the foolishness in that argument, seeing as he is excersising the right, nay the western responsibility, that many theocracies and authoritarian regimes hate most of all.  However, what I found most horrific and troubling, was a recent post that seemed to intimate that the points raised by CrystalClear were somehow invalid, because of the way he has voted.  How embarassing.  By your rationale, the views of roughly half of the american people are to be cast aside, and disregarded.  Who loves authoritarianism now?

[CrystalClear]

Hi all!  

I have been a long time casual observer of this forum, and I have, over the months, found its discuaaion interesting, and sometimes a little entertaining.  However, I have decided to finally take the plunge as it were and write my first post, and I apologise in advance for any errors herein.

I decided to write today in responce to what I have seen in this particular thread as being a little frightening.  It seems as though many of you are eager to attack this CrystalClear guy, for doing exactly what is excpected of him in not only in this "debate" section, but as a good citizen of the U.S., and that is to question, and hold accountable our leaders.  While many of you are unabashedly pro operation Iraqi freedom, many recent polls are showing that the nation is almost perfectly split on the issue.  You say that he is somehow helping the terrorist by debating?  come on folks, I'm sure everyone can see the foolishness in that argument, seeing as he is excersising the right, nay the western responsibility, that many theocracies and authoritarian regimes hate most of all.  However, what I found most horrific and troubling, was a recent post that seemed to intimate that the points raised by CrystalClear were somehow invalid, because of the way he has voted.  How embarassing.  By your rationale, the views of roughly half of the american people are to be cast aside, and disregarded.  Who loves authoritarianism now?

Thank you Thommy for your support. In case you hadn't figured it out, this (and worse) is how Pat Robertson and the like would treat the majority of our population were they to get their wish and gain control of our government.

"The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, 'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

Peace