Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?

[Bronzesnake]

Crystal quote...

As for my comment about wanting to war with muslims. If you are guilty of feeling this way then I make no apology for pointing my finger at you. If you do not feel this way then I have nothing to apologize for since I wasn't speaking to or about you.

Bronzesnake, I appreciate our conversations and debates. Do not take my calling you a "fundie" as derogatory, I use the word only to classify your position. If you were to call me a centrist I would not be offended. If however you or anyone was offended by the word "fundie" (just a shortened form for speed anyway) because you are not a fundamentalist then I apologize to you even though I was obviously not speaking to you.

 That's fair enough my friend, but do you honestly believe the U.S. government is simply starting war with "Muslims"?

 I'm not offended by being called a fundie, however, I wasn't sure if you weren't being slightly offensive or not. I accept your explanation and good intentions.

 Thanks for your service my friend...even if we don't see eye to eye on Iraq.

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

Hi all!  

I have been a long time casual observer of this forum, and I have, over the months, found its discuaaion interesting, and sometimes a little entertaining.  However, I have decided to finally take the plunge as it were and write my first post, and I apologise in advance for any errors herein.

I decided to write today in responce to what I have seen in this particular thread as being a little frightening.  It seems as though many of you are eager to attack this CrystalClear guy, for doing exactly what is excpected of him in not only in this "debate" section, but as a good citizen of the U.S., and that is to question, and hold accountable our leaders.  While many of you are unabashedly pro operation Iraqi freedom, many recent polls are showing that the nation is almost perfectly split on the issue.  You say that he is somehow helping the terrorist by debating?  come on folks, I'm sure everyone can see the foolishness in that argument, seeing as he is excersising the right, nay the western responsibility, that many theocracies and authoritarian regimes hate most of all.  However, what I found most horrific and troubling, was a recent post that seemed to intimate that the points raised by CrystalClear were somehow invalid, because of the way he has voted.  How embarassing.  By your rationale, the views of roughly half of the american people are to be cast aside, and disregarded.  Who loves authoritarianism now?

Any person who votes to support the killing of babies is a murder of the most innocent. Because half the American people think abortion is a right does not make it rational. Odd how taking a stand against abortion is concidered embarassing, horrific, troubling.

[thommy]

Hi Reba,

I'm sure if you read my post again, you'll see that I didn't even mention abortion.  I have no problem with your obviously strong stance on the matter, and I don't think your opinions regarding it make you neccesarily horrific.  What I said was horrific, was your eagerness to dismiss wholesale, the entirety of someone's point, simply because of how they voted.  Come to think of it, If you could only vote for presidents who have taken your stance on abortion, I'm not sure who you'd vote for, seeing as neither Regan, G.H.W. Bush or his kid, all republicans, have deemed it fit to overturn R. V. Wade.

[Reba]

I have "written in" Allen Keyes except for this last election i did vote for GW.

Any vote for a party or person who supports abortion is support for the murder of the unborn. My reference to abortion is in my post is because of the  poster choice to vote for a democrat.

Below is a piece of the democrat 2004 platform....

We will defend the dignity of all Americans against those who would undermine it. Because we
believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman's right to choose,
consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against
Republican efforts to undermine that right. At the same time, we strongly support family planning
and adoption incentives. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal
responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been
defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We
repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a "Federal
Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart.

[thommy]

I'm not sure how the whole gay marriage thing fits into this particular debate.  Nice quote though.  G.W. has been quite a divisive force in our society, thanks for bringing that to my attention.  Just don't say that the views of an individual on mess-o-potamia are invalid, simply by virtue of their vote.  We do not live in a single issue world.

[CrystalClear]

That's fair enough my friend, but do you honestly believe the U.S. government is simply starting war with "Muslims"?

No, I think GWB and his cronies have an agenda that we aren't privy to. I do believe that some Fundamentalist Christians are supporting the war (and this president) because they believe Islam to be an "abomination" are are overjoyed that we are at war with a country full of them. I also believe there are some here.

I'm not offended by being called a fundie, however, I wasn't sure if you weren't being slightly offensive or not. I accept your explanation and good intentions.

 Thanks for your service my friend...even if we don't see eye to eye on Iraq.

Bronzesnake

Again I am grateful for your mature conversation!

Peace

[CrystalClear]

I have "written in" Allen Keyes except for this last election i did vote for GW.

Any vote for a party or person who supports abortion is support for the murder of the unborn. My reference to abortion is in my post is because of the  poster choice to vote for a democrat.

Below is a piece of the democrat 2004 platform....

We will defend the dignity of all Americans against those who would undermine it. Because we
believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman's right to choose,
consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against
Republican efforts to undermine that right. At the same time, we strongly support family planning
and adoption incentives. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal
responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been
defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We
repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a "Federal
Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart.

Reba, you have a great deal of anger in you and you should pray for guidence in this area. As for who I vote for, I'll tell you that ONE issue is not sufficient do base a political philosophy on. I vote based on a variety of issues so I choose the candidate who most closely represents what I would like to see help our country at that point in time. I have voted both Republican and Democrat. I am registered as an Independant but did not support either candidate this time around. If you base your vote entirely on the candidates position on abortion then you probably haven't voted in quite some time.

Like I said before, you support GWB so if you accept the blood on your hands of tens of thousands of Iraqi's and close to 2000 American Servicemen then I will do the same.

It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:

Psalm 137:
7)Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9)Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Exodus 12:
29)And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle

[nChrist]

             

[musicllover]

I have "written in" Allen Keyes except for this last election i did vote for GW.

Any vote for a party or person who supports abortion is support for the murder of the unborn. My reference to abortion is in my post is because of the  poster choice to vote for a democrat.

Below is a piece of the democrat 2004 platform....

We will defend the dignity of all Americans against those who would undermine it. Because we
believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman's right to choose,
consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against
Republican efforts to undermine that right. At the same time, we strongly support family planning
and adoption incentives. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal
responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been
defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We
repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a "Federal
Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart.

Reba, you have a great deal of anger in you and you should pray for guidence in this area. As for who I vote for, I'll tell you that ONE issue is not sufficient do base a political philosophy on. I vote based on a variety of issues so I choose the candidate who most closely represents what I would like to see help our country at that point in time. I have voted both Republican and Democrat. I am registered as an Independant but did not support either candidate this time around. If you base your vote entirely on the candidates position on abortion then you probably haven't voted in quite some time.

Like I said before, you support GWB so if you accept the blood on your hands of tens of thousands of Iraqi's and close to 2000 American Servicemen then I will do the same.

It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:

Psalm 137:
7)Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9)Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Exodus 12:
29)And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle

Crystal.......I quote
"It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:"
I've added the red hightlight,
I'm completely shocked you said this? Since when is the killing of any innocent baby NOT a sin? But lets Set aside the abortion issue for a second, this debate is against the war that you say you are against.  Now I'm confused as to what you believe. So you believe killing a baby isn't a sin? But you don't like the war in Iraq?


The scripture you referr to in Psalm, is referring to the Babylon empire, enemies of God, the scriptures from Exodus was when the Pharoah wouldn't let the Isarealites go making him and enemy of God. With this in mind when did God every kill the child of a believer? You won't answer me cause you've dodged my question up till now, but please give me one instance when God took the life of a child of a believer?

I remind you that we are the created, God is the creater with just a simply thought we could all be dead, so does that make God a murder? Did the flood make God a murder too? You can't say war is wrong but its ok to kill baby's, the 2 don't mix.

musicllover

[thommy]

musiclover,

I suppose that is the real crux of the debate here.  Both sides seem to want to justify the kiiling of one and not the other.  Perhaps we need to break into two new camps: 1. pro-choice/ pro-war, so you can say killing people is great OR 2. Pro-Life/Anti-war. so you can say killing anyone is wrong.  Then no one could find any hypocrisy!  You might have a tough time finding support, as most democrats are ant-war pro-choice and most republicans are decidedly pro-life and pro-war.  You see, both sides have their inhearant problematic reasoning.  Thats what makes these sort of debates so entertaining.  Keep it comming!  

[Shammu]

Posted by: CrystalClear
Reba, you have a great deal of anger in you and you should pray for guidence in this area.

I think you are reading too much, between the lines. I haven't seen Reba angry, or mad, at any poster, except stupid ones.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Psalm 4:4 In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Selah

[CrystalClear]

Crystal.......I quote
"It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:"

I've added the red hightlight,
I'm completely shocked you said this? Since when is the killing of any innocent baby NOT a sin? But lets Set aside the abortion issue for a second, this debate is against the war that you say you are against.  Now I'm confused as to what you believe. So you believe killing a baby isn't a sin? But you don't like the war in Iraq?

I've added the red highlight. we'll keep that sentence in mind for later (soon actually).

The scripture you referr to in Psalm, is referring to the Babylon empire, enemies of God, the scriptures from Exodus was when the Pharoah wouldn't let the Isarealites go making him and enemy of God. With this in mind when did God every kill the child of a believer? You won't answer me cause you've dodged my question up till now, but please give me one instance when God took the life of a child of a believer?

Ok, here we are with some interesting stuff. I quoted those passages to make a point to Reba that God has ordered the wholesale killing of innocent lives (children, babies, animals) according to his purpose. Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say.
I am against abortion as a means of birth control but I am for women’s rights to choose what happens to their own bodies. I allow them to make the choice and let God be the judge according to his plan. I also believe abortion to be an option when the mother’s life is in danger, again by her choice. God takes from us the lives of the newly born by the thousands every day, all according to his plan and it is not for me to judge that plan. But abortion aside.

Give you and example of when God took the life of a believer’s child? Ever hear of the evening news? Happens every day. But even more interesting is the fact that you seem to believe it's not sin to take the life of a child as long as it's the child of one of Gods enemies... curious. Remember that red highlight up there?  

I remind you that we are the created, God is the creater with just a simply thought we could all be dead, so does that make God a murder? Did the flood make God a murder too? You can't say war is wrong but its ok to kill baby's, the 2 don't mix.

I didn't WAR was wrong my dear, I said THIS WAR was wrong.

I'm confused as to where you stand because you seem to be against abortion, but for war whether it's just and righteous or not and for the killing of babies of the enemies of God?

Oh, and I'm not sure what questions of your I've dodged...

[CrystalClear]

Posted by: CrystalClear
Reba, you have a great deal of anger in you and you should pray for guidence in this area.

I think you are reading too much, between the lines. I haven't seen Reba angry, or mad, at any poster, except stupid ones.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Psalm 4:4 In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Selah

Well, perhaps I am reading anger where there is none.
And I appreciate your compliment.  

[Kris777]

Someone said something about abortion, and I thought that I should post this.

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 18
l. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3. And said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

So then killing of a child or someone that is saved, wouldn't that be offending them?  And in assumeing this wouldn't you then think that the above verses say what Jesus thinks of that?

[musicllover]

Crystal.......I quote
"It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:"

I've added the red hightlight,
I'm completely shocked you said this? Since when is the killing of any innocent baby NOT a sin? But lets Set aside the abortion issue for a second, this debate is against the war that you say you are against.  Now I'm confused as to what you believe. So you believe killing a baby isn't a sin? But you don't like the war in Iraq?

I've added the red highlight. we'll keep that sentence in mind for later (soon actually).

The scripture you referr to in Psalm, is referring to the Babylon empire, enemies of God, the scriptures from Exodus was when the Pharoah wouldn't let the Isarealites go making him and enemy of God. With this in mind when did God every kill the child of a believer? You won't answer me cause you've dodged my question up till now, but please give me one instance when God took the life of a child of a believer?

Ok, here we are with some interesting stuff. I quoted those passages to make a point to Reba that God has ordered the wholesale killing of innocent lives (children, babies, animals) according to his purpose. Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say.
I am against abortion as a means of birth control but I am for women’s rights to choose what happens to their own bodies. I allow them to make the choice and let God be the judge according to his plan. I also believe abortion to be an option when the mother’s life is in danger, again by her choice. God takes from us the lives of the newly born by the thousands every day, all according to his plan and it is not for me to judge that plan. But abortion aside.

Give you and example of when God took the life of a believer’s child? Ever hear of the evening news? Happens every day. But even more interesting is the fact that you seem to believe it's not sin to take the life of a child as long as it's the child of one of Gods enemies... curious. Remember that red highlight up there?  

I remind you that we are the created, God is the creater with just a simply thought we could all be dead, so does that make God a murder? Did the flood make God a murder too? You can't say war is wrong but its ok to kill baby's, the 2 don't mix.

I didn't WAR was wrong my dear, I said THIS WAR was wrong.

I'm confused as to where you stand because you seem to be against abortion, but for war whether it's just and righteous or not and for the killing of babies of the enemies of God?

Oh, and I'm not sure what questions of your I've dodged...

Crystal,
You brought up the scriptures and posted them I simply was using your idea, (crazy as it is) that because God took the life (you call this murder) of all first borns this some how justifies abortion,.... you still didn't answer my question.
 Did God ever take the life of any first born of a believer? NO......why don't we ask ourselves what caused God to take those lives? Even some of the Isarealites didn't follow the direction so their first borns were dead too. Unbelief, rebellion, doubt, ingnorance caused the death of the first borns not God. God left a way out as he always does, and the unbelievers failed. A murder doesn't give anyone a choice, no one gives the innoncent baby a choice of life or death, and neither do the mothers who abort them or any who believe abortion is a choice.  War, well you signed up you do your job, end of story.

the evening NEWS !!!!>>>>LOL>>>>> YOU got to be kidding, talk about a far reach here, The evening news....you believe  the death of babies are caused by God? Kinda like the headlines of the trash at the check out lines. You don't really believe that do you? You do believe that God is soveign right? He no doubt he allows many thinks we don't understand, abortion for one, but he doesn't kill anything, don't you get it, GOD is GOD, he allows a life to be lost or saved out of our own ingorance, and bad behavior, like drinking and driving a family is hit and some one dies, maybe a baby is dead.......who caused that? You would say God? What about crib deaths.....unexplained, but there is new evidence suggesting that crib death is linked to cigeratte smoking in the home. The scriptures tell US, YOU, ME, those next door, up or down the street WE CAN NOT kill.  Because God is sovereign, God doesn't murder anyone.

 I don't like war but I  agree with the reasons we went to war. (your assumption that I do is dead wrong DEAREST, I didn't sleep for day on end because my son was there) The scriptues tells us there will be times of war.......this is one of them. Islam is an enemy of all CHristians, its their own disbelief in Jesus Christ that has caused this war. Some say oil is the reason, possilby for man, maybe not for God. WE know form Scriptures that God can and has use war to take care of nasty situations like Iraq, this isnt' a war for oil I believe its a war of Alah verse God. Do I like the idea that baby are being killed, hardly. But as the original post suggests Our President didn't kill any babies. HE didn't have our troups dress up like civillians and mix among those babies. Your real beef (besides the war itself) is with Hussein. I'ed like to hear what he has to say as well. There will be deaths of many people in the years to come, you can't deny any of that.......man started this way,,,,, and God is going to end it HIS way and if that means war then so be it. If that means babies lives are lost then so be it, but NOT by abortion, that is cold blooded murder, not an accident caused by war.


Previous questions that you didn't answer. You claim your a marine, what if your were in the marines, would you like to be referred to as a baby killer? .........guess so since you thing abortion is ok.
IF your were President what would you do ? How would you have handled the years of not allowing our inspectors in, or the killing of his own people denying people water, denying food, supporting terrorismm, weapons of mass destruction  etc etc
 
You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....I believe that would be contary to his word so NO, God will never advocate murder.  Abortion is just another act of ignoracne and disobediance and people will be judged accordingly, also for not standing against it...same as performing them yourself.  Through out your post you imply God is a murder, I know its hard to understand but
My point is God didn't take the life of a believers baby becuase of their acts of obediance. Is Iraq following God? Does this justify war?  Yes, is there any point in time when murder is justified NO. But war isn't murder, it is killing, but its not murder.
war and abortion aren't the same thing. As I said in my previous posts put abortion aside here let us concintrate on what the thread intended, except for the maker of this thread has stuck his tail between his legs and run.
WHat do you think we should have done about Hussein?

musicllover