Born Again! What Happened?

[2nd Timothy]

A few things to ponder on while you study.

I know you are aware of these verses, but just posting for others who might be reading along.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


This is very clear is to how salvation is attained.   Paul really hammers this point away in a number of his letters.   I don't believe God changes the rules after we are saved.   I think the biggest problem most converts have, is focusing more on works than on their relationship with Christ.   Note that verse 10 above says WE are HIS workmanship.  


And then of course we have....

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



So which is it, Law or Grace?

I would say that if we as believers are trying to justify ourselves by the above passage, then we are walking outside of Grace.   We can never be just in Gods eyes by law keeping apart from the Grace of Christ.   Even our best good deeds are evil without Christ.   It is humanly impossible for us to measure up to the Law, which was the whole purpose the word became Flesh and died on our behalf.

So how do we conform to Christ, walk as He did, and live by Grace?  

This is where the rubber meets the road, and the sheep are divided from the goats.   Simply, we live for Christ by making Him Lord over our lives.   Remember, Jesus said many will call Him Lord, and He will say He never knew them.   Yet, Peter denied the Lord and was restored!!!    Many people I think want the benefits of Christ, without really making Him Lord over their lives.   In simple terms, they want Him as Saviour but Not as Lord.   (fire insurance is another way of saying it)  When we focus on our relationship with Him, and put Him in the drivers seat of every aspect of our lives, conforming comes automatically out of our Love and adoration for our Lord and Saviour!   And by this, we are walking in His Grace, His righteousness and the Father sees Jesus in charge instead of us.  


If you're focusing on the Law, you've missed the meaning of Grace.   If you're focused on Christ, the two will meet as God intended, and salvation and works will be evident in your life.

The real key is, making Him Lord over every part of our lives.  I know I personally still struggle giving up certain areas in my own life, but this I think is what the Christian walk is really all about.   Making Him Lord over all in my life.  



I hope this makes sense.   I used to really struggle with Grace and what it meant.   Its something we don't deserve, and can't do for ourselves     Put Him first and the rest will start to fall into place, giving Him all the credit and glory He deserves!   Maybe not all once, but it will!

Grace and Peace!

[nChrist]

Amen 2nd Timothy,

That was a beautiful post and a precious portion of Scripture that you used. I find this somewhat hard to believe, but I studied the first two chapters of 1 John just today. These first two chapters appear to have contradictions, but they aren't contradictions at all, rather the revelation of some difficult but beautiful truths. In fact, this entire book in a wonderful study, especially if you take the time to follow the references and comparisons to other portions of Scripture.

Brother, a study of 1 John is beautiful, and I hope to study the remaining 3 chapters tonight and tomorrow. What is thought to be contradictions in the Holy Bible by many turns out to be a beautiful compliment in the Gospel of the Grace of God. Thanks again Brother for some additional study material that I plan to enjoy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 26:63-64 NASB  But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."  Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

[2nd Timothy]

I've been thinking, praying and sleeping on this just a wee bit     Just wanted to add a few more thoughts.


2Ti 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Again in NASV

2Ti 2:11  It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12  If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13  If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Verse 11 says...If we died with Him!   Died to self, made Him Lord.   The latter part of verse 12 says "if we deny Him, He will deny us"   Is this referring to salvation?   How can it, if the following verse says when we are faithless, HE remains faithful and cannot deny Himself?     Remember, Peter denied Christ 3 times, was restored and became the Rock of the Church!!!    


Could this be related to.....

Mat 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22  "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23  "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


These people who are not known by the Lord, are doing various works in His name, and even call Him Lord, yet Christ never knew them!    Sad to say, these will most likely be Church going individuals as well.    

So getting back to salvation/backsliding....

Scripture tells us that His sheep will hear His voice.

Joh 10:27  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28  and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.


I was thinking about this last night, and back to the time when I was away from God.   Even during that time, living in heaps of sin, I knew Him.  I knew I was away from Him, and I knew I was living in sin.   Do non-sheep know this?   I don't believe so.   I was hearing the voice of my true Master, even though I was reluctant to respond.    Again, I think to ggambles testimony, and he states the same thing about realizing the state of his life.    Funny how we are both back in the loving arms of God!    2Ti 2:13  If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


Gal 2:20  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Is it possible that those who depart from the faith never to return, never really died to self thus returning to their true master, "the world", whereas those who still hear His voice, even as prodigal sons do?  Me thinks yes!

Perhaps seeing OSAS in this light, changes my own perspective about that doctrine.    I was telling Mr BEP's how reading my own posts, its almost as if God is speaking more to me than anyone else sometimes.  


Lord, thank you being faithful even when I am not.  Thank you for being Lord of my life.   Make me what you want me to be, and conform me fully to the image of your precious son.   We give you all the praise and glory, in Jesus name...AMEN!


Blessings!

[nChrist]

Amen 2nd Timothy,

______________________

More About Jesus

John 4:13-14 NASB  Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:21-24 NASB  "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:27-29 NASB  "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:39-51 NASB  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. "I am the bread of life. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Beneath The Cross Of Jesus

Beneath the cross of Jesus I fain would take my stand,
The shadow of a mighty rock within a weary land;
A home within the wilderness, a rest upon the way,
From the burning of the noontide heat, and the burden of the day.

O safe and happy shelter, O refuge tried and sweet,
O trusting place where Heaven’s love and Heaven’s justice meet!
As to the holy patriarch that wondrous dream was given,
So seems my Savior’s cross to me, a ladder up to heaven.

There lies beneath its shadow but on the further side
The darkness of an awful grave that gapes both deep and wide
And there between us stands the cross two arms outstretched to save
A watchman set to guard the way from that eternal grave.

Upon that cross of Jesus mine eyes at times can see
The very dying form of One Who suffered there for me;
And from my stricken heart with tears two wonders I confess;
The wonders of redeeming love and my unworthiness.

I take, O cross, thy shadow for my abiding place;
I ask no other sunshine than the sunshine of His face;
Content to let the world go by to know no gain or loss,
My sinful self my only shame, my glory all the cross.[/b]

[ggamble]

Greetings,  Blackeyedpeas

I've read the last replies from You and 2nd Timothy, and I believe this debate has been awesome, I've learned somethings and hope I passed on a few from my experience in Jesus. And hope I can open up the reasons to why I believe what I believe on this subject,  I've went back in researched other things, and got some revelation as to why I did not pull out this one scripture I'm about to dive into.
I really liked the devotional today in Oswald Chambers, "My Utmost for His Highest" on "The test of loyalty",  December 18.  His devotion which I have been using for about the last 5 months always seem to hit right where God is doing some sanctifying work in me, this week has been no exception. I love that, opening up of them doors of truth.  I believe it hit home on this debate to some good things being done.  We have all seen this line being expressed in this debate.
To be faithful in every circumstance means that we have only one loyalty, and that is our Lord.  This line also; It is only the loyal soul who believes that God engineers circumstances. Just like this debate,  Amen. And the verse Oswald used to steer this devotion which is one of my favorite verses in Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God".
And I believe this debate has been heading that way from the start, Amen. So let me get going on what I have to discuss and lay the ground work of where I put my boundaries and why. Here we go!
2Pe 2:19-22
BEP, I have used your guidelines in researching these scriptures. I have heard this used many times to as being after salvation, which is not all bad, because it makes a man stop in his tracks, but it also does not give the true meaning, hopefully it would stop a non- believer from not following through, to which is the reason for its writing from what I have studied. The kicker is "if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", this is easy to claim that they are saved by how this is written.
{LABNIV} commentary puts this on verses 2:20-22 --- Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because he or she has rejected the only way out of sin, the only way of salvation. Like a person sinking in quicksand who refuses to grab the rope thrown him or her, the one who turns away from Christ casts aside his or her only means of escape.
It takes acts of obedience to empower the Holy Spirit, I've seen people come to Christ, confess Him, Lord and Saviour and not follow through, and I did not see in them the conversion happening, they express the peace they have, and its good to know I'm saved now, but the Holy Spirit coming upon them, I did not seem to see them, get it or see it for real. In a reply from DigitGen he said the Holy Spirit comes right in as soon as they confess Him. It should if their heart was right in the confessing. Then yes, He is there, but it takes acts of obedience to empower His work. It would seem these verses in 2nd Peter would be coming into play then, and I have seen that being done in them that did as I just explained and some are still in that arena. The reason they are is because someone told them that your ok, because OSAS, your in and then justify the sinful nature they still remain in, saying Jesus knew I was going to do this, its forgiven, and never ask for forgiveness just walk still in their self-will flesh, professing His name as the bases of their salvation.
As I said to 2nd Timothy, I cannot excuse sin because of OSAS. I do believe the Lord will come after His sheep, the Hound of Heaven comes, and God can humble a person, remember King Neb, in Daniel, it took some eating grass, and Jonah, it took the whale, for three days and some seaweed, to be obedient.
That's His love for us, so I will not commit to once saved always saved. The reason is in my reply to 2nd Timothy.  But I do know from experience He comes after you,  but you have to repent or your quenching the Spirit. And I have heard that from Hebrews 6, it was explained as He will can harden your heart, and leave you in your mire, if you choose to forsake Him. He will not forsake you because He will go after the one, and leave the 99 to find you. Only His sheep, not a goat.
And 2nd Timothy brought that to the truth with 2 Tim 2:13 and John 10:28,  which put it pretty well to that as a fact.  
But I cannot agree with an unrepent sin, and your still right with Him, because of what that would tell a new believer, or one weak in the walk.  
I just feel better telling someone it comes down to choice, because it takes an act of obedience to empower the Holy Spirit, one has to have their heart right when he confesses Him. You have to walk the walk, in true faith and loyality.
I don't believe if one has unrepented sin that it has been done for them at the moment of their salvation, because what would be the point. And in 1 John it says He is faithful and will forgive us, if we ask.  OSAS leaves to much open area for the enemy to come in and people will not be applying truth to anything, its just dangerous for one to think in that matter and to take that grace for granted. Grace has a lot to do with sanctification. I take the grace given to me and learn from that error, it is to teach you also. We are to become Christ-like.
When one takes the sacrament they should have repented of their sins before hand.
1Co 11:27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. {KJV}
{LABNIV commentary} We should examine ourselves to any unconfessed sin or resentful attitude. We are to be properly based on belief in and love for Christ.
Its just dangerous to leave OSAS on the plate for a believer if the whole Gospel is not explained to them. As I said we have to be good stewards of the gift that has been given us,  in which we have to make good choices, and thats where I call it choice.
Jud 1:1  Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called. {KJV}
One other translation has the word "perserved" as "kept" for Christ Jesus. Here is a quote from a Baptist pastor, that I kept close to my heart when I heard him preach on courage.
"The amount of courage in our lives, is determined on our understanding that we are kept for Christ Jesus." (Dr. Ronald Floyd)
Now that word "understanding" must be seeded into OSAS, and alert us always to what the promise was all about, and what the gift meant, in the fashion of how we should live our lives for Him and not suffer Him more. This statement even goes deeper than that for me, but wow, is it not good, and full of encouragement towards anything we will face.
BEP, brother I know we are closer than we think, but I hope you see my reasons and concerns for the statement OSAS.
Maybe the statement should say "We are His, saved by grace, called to be good stewards with the free gift He has given us, through His Son, our blessed hope, Christ Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, our hope is in our calling."
Then everything is in there dealing with salvation.
Here's another thing I learned in 1996, as was when I learned that from Dr. Floyd. This one was from a missionary named Jim Elliot,
"He is no fool who gives up what cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
It inspired a song from the Lord in me back then, here it is.

                 To Gain What He Cannot Lose

Lord help me, Lord help me stay in Your care
For the world keeps on call 'n, but I've already been there
for the choices of many have broken my heart
But You Lord have been faithful, oh how great Thou art

***************CHORUS******************************
when I was there it was just complete misery
Attacks from the devil, and just depending on me
Oh, how I wonder, why it's so hard for folks to choose
He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose
*******************************************************

Oh, now I know about suffering, I can relate to Jesus
I only have to look around me to those God wants to touch
And I pray for the many who persecute me
Oh, Lord God, turn'em around, their only being deceived
********************************************************
CHORUS
********************************************************
So many exchange their love for another
But their bound by chains, in their desires they smoother
For never will know true love in their heart
That Jesus can give them, if they'de just let Him start
********************************************************
CHORUS   & REPEAT CHORUS
********************************************************
Given to G. Gamble - April 1996 (c) Two-G's Music
Key of E -----Chord rotation -E-A- 4/4 time

I'll close now, this debate has been divine, in the truths, Praise Jesus.
And leave on this quote from the beloved brother Peter Marshall.
"Give us clear vision that we may know where to stand and what to stand for, because unless we stand for something we will fall for anything."     in Jesus name, Amen

May the Lord bless thee, and keep thee
only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[nChrist]

Hello Brother GGamble,

This has simply been a pleasant discussion between Brothers in Christ, so I have enjoyed it. I had first feared that it would be just another argument, but it hasn't been, and I think that GOD has been glorified with this discussion.

I had several very pleasant thoughts when I was reading your post, and they regarded new Christians. I look back and remember many, many who were really saved and some who simply had some sort of experience that did not amount to Salvation. I was thinking about how many desperate people there are and how horrible some of their problems are. Some have tried just about everything and they are so miserable that they are anxious to try anything else that comes along. I don't know that I will use words that explain this right, but I'm going to try. Salvation isn't just something to try or experiment with. It must be real, rather than one of those "try before you buy" type experiences. The pain, misery, and agony of many people needing JESUS is almost beyond belief. Being ready to try anything is not enough for Salvation. It can be tried before men, but nothing less than REAL will be accepted by GOD. If it is REAL, the Holy Spirit of GOD enters the heart of the new believer RIGHT NOW!, and the person is reborn as a child of GOD, not of flesh, RATHER BY SPIRIT, and the person is BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. If it wasn't real, it's simply a person saying that they tried to be a Christian, and we know that a person can't try to be a Christian. Without the Holy Spirit of God, the person had little more than some sort of emotional experience.

Now, I'm thinking about a REAL, new Christian. They are known as a Babe in Christ. What do they do and where do they go from there? Have they felt the TRUE JOY in JESUS or the TRUE STRENGTH in JESUS at that moment? The answer is "NO". A Babe in Christ is TRULY SAVED, but they haven't claimed the contents of the massive "Treasure Chest of Spiritual Riches, Joy, and Strength" that JESUS has opened for them and wants them to take. NOW, there are many other things to either claim with zeal, take with some degree of enthusiasm, take in a lethargic manner, or just look at the treasures and wait. Everything that is taken defines the level of fellowship with Christ and other Christians, and everything requires work with the right attitude. There are a massive number of variables, but the biggest ones are right attitude, interest, effort, prayer, yielding to the will of GOD, and the biggest one:  letting the Holy Spirit of God in your heart rule, direct, teach, and lead. Many precious portions of Scripture instruct this new Christian "THAT THEIR JOY MAY BE MORE FULL." The last few words are very important, and you will see them many times in the Scripture. They deal with all Christians, certainly not just the new Christians or the Babes in Christ. They never quit speaking to the hearts of Christians, regardless of how mature and strong they are in JESUS. The instructions are impossible to master, and there are always "STUMBLES" AND "FALLS" along the way. Many of the failures that Christians suffer in their walk in the spirit are rendered as "STUMBLE" from the ancient texts. "FALL" is many times rendered in the same manner from the same root word. I used the word "failure", but we know that our Lord and Saviour never fails. We "stumble", but JESUS doesn't. Here's the major question that should result from these thoughts: What happens if the REAL new Christian never grows - are they still saved? Are they still saved if they don't bear any fruit? YES, but they didn't have the JOY JESUS wanted them to have.

Now, let's talk about the Christian who wishes to claim and enjoy all of the spiritual riches that JESUS wants to give them. This is the doctrine that confuses a lot of people, and some connect it with Salvation. "Fullness of Joy" in JESUS always involves many good works, lots of effort, and much fruit. "REWARDS" are offered by GOD for these efforts, and the "REWARD" is over and beyond Salvation. The "REWARDS" are very conditional, and they should not be confused with Salvation. A loss of "REWARDS" is not a loss of Salvation. Here's a fairly simple explanation for "REWARDS":  1) good works not done for recognition or REWARD, 2) good works done simply out of a heart of love and appreciation for JESUS, 3) good works done ONLY for the Glory of God - not man or self.  The REWARDS are real and they are eternal, but they should never be confused with Salvation. A Christian who does good works for REWARDS will NEVER get one. A Christian who does good works for recognition of self or anything other than the Glory of God will see those good works burned up and mean nothing. Only the good works done in pure love of JESUS will be counted for eternal REWARDS. NOW, if you go back to the portions of Scripture that stated "that your joy might be more full", you will find the good works that are counted for REWARDS. This is important - good works are never counted for Salvation, nor will they ever be. Many portions of Scripture also pertain to Christian living, Christian testimony before men, and evidence of a Christian life before men. None of these things ARE OR EQUAL Salvation.

Brother, most of this post pertains to what Christians SHOULD do for "fulness of joy", Christian living, and Christian testimony before men. These all most OBVIOUSLY involve good works and many other things associated with the quality of our Walk in the Spirit. However, they are not the things that save us, nor are they the things that keep us saved. Faith in JESUS, HIS Blood, and the Cross is what saves us. Once we are saved, JESUS holds us, keeps us, never forsakes us, and no power can pluck us out of HIS MIGHTY HANDS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 103:1-5 NASB  A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits; Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases; Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion; Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.

Romans 5:20-21 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Allinall]

Hi ggamble!


I myself have struggled with this topic somewhat.   I know I have discussed it a few times with brother BEP and Allinall.   I'm sort of middle of the road when it comes to OSAS/Backsliding.   Perhaps leaning more to OSAS.  The main reason I guess is that salvation is a free gift.   We are adopted into the family of God when we accept Christ.   He does not dis-own us when we sin.   Yes, he does convict us.   And yes we are going to sin.  Granted, we as believers don't practice sin, but we will sin at times.   When we do, the Holy Spirit convicts us to repent.   Like Paul address, we do the things we don't want to do at times, and don't do the things we know we should.   Who will deliver us from this wretched state we are in?  Christ of course!  By His grace and mercy.

Now then, what happens if we disobey the Holy Spirit and do not repent?   Is there a point when we are no longer His Child (be it a wayward child)?    I don't think there is, but please don't take my word for it.    There is ample warning in scripture about falling away, but there is nothing in scripture about His free gift being taken back...at least that I have read.

I read your testimony, and must say that I can relate to it quite a bit.  Mine is posted in the "Your Story About His Glory" thread.    Some would say I was not saved the first time around, others might say I was and backslid, before returning to Christ.    Like you, I certainly believed I was saved the first time around, and felt His presence in my life.  I also  certainly felt lost when I turned my back on God.     The one thing I think is interesting about both our stories is..... we both find ourselves living for Christ at this moment regardless of what happened between first accepting Christ, and going our own way for a time.   So were we really lost during that dark period of time?   Or had we received His free gift, been adopted, gotten off track, and God came to find His Children?    I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure He was there all the time, even though we were focused on ourselves.   "He is faithful, even when we are not."


Thats just sort of where I am at the moment on this subject.   I can perfectly see where you are coming from regarding this however.   My thinking is, we are His and there's nothing we can do to get away from Him  



Grace and Peace!

AMEN!!!  

[Allinall]

A few things to ponder on while you study.

I know you are aware of these verses, but just posting for others who might be reading along.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


This is very clear is to how salvation is attained.   Paul really hammers this point away in a number of his letters.   I don't believe God changes the rules after we are saved.   I think the biggest problem most converts have, is focusing more on works than on their relationship with Christ.   Note that verse 10 above says WE are HIS workmanship.  


And then of course we have....

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



So which is it, Law or Grace?

I would say that if we as believers are trying to justify ourselves by the above passage, then we are walking outside of Grace.   We can never be just in Gods eyes by law keeping apart from the Grace of Christ.   Even our best good deeds are evil without Christ.   It is humanly impossible for us to measure up to the Law, which was the whole purpose the word became Flesh and died on our behalf.

So how do we conform to Christ, walk as He did, and live by Grace?  

This is where the rubber meets the road, and the sheep are divided from the goats.   Simply, we live for Christ by making Him Lord over our lives.   Remember, Jesus said many will call Him Lord, and He will say He never knew them.   Yet, Peter denied the Lord and was restored!!!    Many people I think want the benefits of Christ, without really making Him Lord over their lives.   In simple terms, they want Him as Saviour but Not as Lord.   (fire insurance is another way of saying it)  When we focus on our relationship with Him, and put Him in the drivers seat of every aspect of our lives, conforming comes automatically out of our Love and adoration for our Lord and Saviour!   And by this, we are walking in His Grace, His righteousness and the Father sees Jesus in charge instead of us.  


If you're focusing on the Law, you've missed the meaning of Grace.   If you're focused on Christ, the two will meet as God intended, and salvation and works will be evident in your life.

The real key is, making Him Lord over every part of our lives.  I know I personally still struggle giving up certain areas in my own life, but this I think is what the Christian walk is really all about.   Making Him Lord over all in my life.  



I hope this makes sense.   I used to really struggle with Grace and what it meant.   Its something we don't deserve, and can't do for ourselves     Put Him first and the rest will start to fall into place, giving Him all the credit and glory He deserves!   Maybe not all once, but it will!

Grace and Peace!

AMENAMENAAAAMEEENNN!!!  I think, in my life at least, the thing I've come to realize is that I don't make Jesus Lord of my life.  I remember that my life was bought with a price, and I am not my own.  Great post bro!

[ggamble]

Greetings All,

The proof that your old man is crucufied with Christ is the amazing ease with which the life of God in you enables you to obey the voice of Jesus Christ.

                                  Oswald Chambers

I did not have room in my last reply to state my referring to the phase "caught in darkness" as coming from John's letters. When in fact it came from Pauls, which I used in the next reply. I should have took the time to research the correct direction of the scripture I was referring too. I ask your forgiveness if I miss lead anyone to its origin. Sorry guys.

Oswald says it like I see it, like I walk it, not for it, because of works, certainly not for rewards, I even don't know that much about any reward. I don't keep a score card, I just pray, and listen and keep alert to the windows God opens up.
Some points this debate has also brought out is the importantence of discipleship. Its one thing Christians have really failed to do. Jesus had 12, Paul had Luke, Silas, many it seems in different times.  Peter, I know had John Mark. What proves that Christians have not met the mark to which they have been called, "to make disciples".  
Schools today, what is going on now with taking Chrsit out of Christmas, the United States in general, the world for that matter.
I wonder if the fear of doing works, was what happened, to cause that error. Or just plain old being lazy, and works justified it.  Or, the fear to stand for what is right, in accordance to their belief.

This the season of Our Lord & Saviour, Our Blessed Hope, King of kings, Christ Jesus, its all about Him. And what He was born to give us. Blessed be His glorious name. the glory of His righteousness and wonders of His LOVE!
Oh, Joy to the world, the Lord is coming again.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only, always for Christ Jesus
Merry Christmas to all,,,,,,,,,,,
ggamble

"God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."                John 4:24

[nChrist]

Hello Brother GGamble,

We really do live in hard, confusing, and evil times, and things appear to be getting worse by the day. It's pretty discouraging when a Christian really wants to make a difference and the burdens for what's wrong in our world seems unsurmountable. Well, they are unsurmountable, but we shouldn't let that ruin our attitude. We can and should do what God leads us to do and concentrate on the burdens on our hearts. Maybe those burdens bothering us the most involve family members and close friends who are lost. We can pray that God helps us, guides us, and gives us strength for what HE wants done. In the end, the biggest burdens on our hearts might or might not be resolved, but we can be assured that God's Word will never be wasted, and God will continue to use it. So, there might come a time when we feel there is nothing else we can do for those we love or feel closest to. All we might be able to do is pray and simply give some of those burdens to JESUS. In the meantime, we should still be doing what HE leads us to do.

This is a sad and depressing world, but this isn't our world. Our citizenship is in Heaven, and we are simply here on a temporary visa. If we pray an ask, God will lead us and direct us to do what He wants us to do while we are here in this short life. The rewards that God promises should never be a motivator for what we do or how we do it. Our love and appreciation for JESUS should be the only motivator. There is more, but it doesn't deal with eternal rewards, rather of things we can enjoy right now in this life. I'm talking about being closer to JESUS and enjoying a deeper and more satisfying fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. This feels good, and it makes a Christian happy, even though we are still here in this short life. GOD tells us in the Holy Bible how we can live this life as Victory in JESUS. We won't solve all the problems of this world, but we can yield to GOD and let HIM use us in whatever way He Wills. This will result in us being a happy Christian, even here. The "REWARDS" really don't come to mind very often, and we really don't know what they will be. The rewards shouldn't come to mind anyway since they must not be a motivator for the good works we do.

Brother GGamble, just knowing that we have yielded to what God wants us to do should make us happy. If that means sweeping the floor or emptying the trash for the church, so be it. If God uses us to point someone to Christ, that will simply be Glory for GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:19-20 NASB  And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.  Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

[ggamble]

Greetings, BEP

Amen, on your last reply, I don't think I have an attitude about the errors of discipleship, or that Christians failed to making a stand. But I always hear the complaining about why things are the way they are. And then I resort back to us as the church may have missed the mark. The ground work for these things of today were intact long before I was here. And I have certainly been also one who has complained. And hope I don't miss the calling I'm to do, when called to do it. Then discipleship holds dear to my heart, and on another thread I put some  of that on there.  {Why?/Christians Unite}
The Lord lead me to a web-site that has some pages that put a lot of what has been discussed on this thread into great detail. And I was wondering if I could place the address here for others to check out?
I only had one problem with my looking over the site. And that was them listing charismatic denominations as a cult.
Now cult to me means, they are on the wrong side or demonic and deceived and divided from the body of Christ.
Some I will agree, go outside what is taught in the fashion of keeping good order. But they also were converted, drawn from the Father to His Son to receive grace and believe in faith in what happened at the cross. To label them as a cult, sort of places them in judgement of them.
Was David charismatic, because he danced before the ark, sung praises openly in his worship of the Lord, played stringed instruments? He surely knew about Jesus, {referring to Psalms 110}. The gifts thing, seems to put one as not in lines with the Word of God, to some. But I'll get back to this thread, it just seems that cult is a strong direction and says that they are not of the saved. The signs thing in order to believe, things they experience in their walk with Jesus come after they have went through conversion. Now handling of snakes, well, that I don't know. But I know I have not been called to do that. But many that are considered charismatic, don't handle snakes as proof of their faith.
My denominations founder of "The Foursquare Church" was Aimee Semple McPherson, and our now Corporate President/Cheif Executive Officer is Pastor Jack Hayford founder of "The Church on the Way", if I can put that on here. I know he loves the Lord, and I know who did that for him.
Jesus is Lord, could a cult member say that?
But the study that is on that web about this topic is backed and right in lines with the Word. I learned somethings there myself.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever. {KJV}
in Jesus name, Amen

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee.
Only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[nChrist]

Hello Brother GGamble,

There is a lot of confusion with the term "Charismatic", and it probably means something different to each person you might talk to. To some it might mean a denomination, to others it might mean a style of worship, and it others it might mean something to do with a cult. I really think it would depend on the specific church or organization someone was talking about. If you considered "Charismatic" to be a style, many churches would have the same thoughts about JESUS as we do, but some wouldn't believe in JESUS at all. Most people in this part of the world are talking about Christian churches, but many in the world are not.

Reference links, we allow them if they don't involve advertising, soliciting for funds, or they don't involve other violations of the forum rules. If you aren't sure, give me the link by PM, and I'll let you know.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 4:4 NASB  But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

[ggamble]

 Daily Light on the Daily Path Devotional
                    Wednesday December 28, 2005
        http://bible.christiansunite.com/devotionals.shtml
==================================================================

      Morning

   Thy sins be forgiven thee.

I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.--Who can forgive sins but God only?

I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.--Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered. Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity.-- Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity.

God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.--The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us.--Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.--Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Mr 2:5 Jer 31:34 Mr 2:7 Isa 43:25 Ps 32:1,2 Mic 7:18 Eph 4:32 1Jo 1:7-9 Ps 103:12 Ro 6:14,18

[ggamble]

 Devotional For Today
Wednesday December 28, 2005
Absolute Assurance
Get Faith's Checkbook delivered to your e-mailbox every morning.

He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5)
     
everal times in the Scriptures the Lord hath said this. He has often repeated it to make our assurance doubly sure. Let us never harbor a doubt about it. In itself the promise is specially emphatic. In the Greek it has five negatives, each one definitely shutting out the possibility of the Lord's ever leaving one of His people so that he can justly feel forsaken of his God. This priceless Scripture does not promise us exemption from trouble, but it does secure us against desertion. We may be called to traverse strange ways, but we shall always have our Lord's company, assistance, and provision. We need not covet money, for we shall always have our God, and God is better than gold; His favor is better than fortune.
     
      We ought surely to be content with such things as we have, for he who has God has more than all the world besides. What can we have beyond the Infinite? What more can we desire than almighty Goodness.
     
     Come, my heart; if God says He will never leave thee nor forsake thee, {be thou much in prayer for grace that thou mayest never leave thy Lord, nor even for a moment forsake His ways.}

[ggamble]

December 28th. Oswald Chamber's  "My Utmost for His Highest"
 
CONTINUOUS CONVERSION
 
"Except ye be converted, and become as little children. . . ." Matthew 18:3

These words of Our Lord are true of our initial conversion, but we have to be continuously converted all the days of our lives, continually to turn to God as children. If we trust to our wits instead of to God, we produce consequences for which God will hold us responsible. Immediately our bodies are brought into new conditions by the providence of God, we have to see that our natural life obeys the dictates of the Spirit of God. Because we have done it once is no proof that we shall do it again. The relation of the natural to the spiritual is one of continuous conversion, and it is the one thing we object to. In every setting in which we are put, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered, but we have to "put on the new man." God holds us responsible every time we refuse to convert ourselves, our reason for refusing is wilful obstinacy. Our natural life must not rule, God must rule in us.

The hindrance in our spiritual life is that we will not be continually converted, there are wadges of obstinacy where our pride spits at the throne of God and says - I won't. We deify independence and wilfulness and call them by the wrong name. What God looks on as obstinate weakness, we call strength. There are whole tracts of our lives which have not yet been brought into subjection, and it can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.
 

These last 3 post's were all devotionals for today. Two from Charles Spurgeon, the last from Oswald Chambers. They all deal right with this debate.
At the end of the last post, Spurgeon writes "be thou much in prayer for grace that thou mayest never leave thy Lord, nor even for a moment forsake His ways.
He's point was.
Persistance in prayer is vital for effective intercession. We can develop persistance by continuing steadfastly in prayer and seeking the Lord. {New Living Translation, TouchPoints for Men, TYNDALE}

1 Chronicles 16:11 Search for the Lord and His strength, and keep on searching. (NLT)

May the Lord keep thee, and bless thee
Only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother in Christ
ggamble