Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[JudgeNot]

Jeremiah 31:8 (NKJV)
Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.

And the relevance of this to the subject in hand is?

Oh, Ebia.  Come on.  Surely you recognize the “relevance”.  I know you say some things just to rub me the wrong way.

You know, I wish you lived in my area.  I’d take you out in my boat fishing one day – maybe out under The Gate to the Farallon Islands.  We could go for Great Whites.  (They’re your kind of fish.   )  Then, when we had a discussion like this I could see the glint in your eye when you make some off-the-wall comment just to tick me off, and I wouldn’t take it nearly so personally.  Who knows – we may even both survive the trip.  (Maybe.)  

That of that piece of scripture, which is obviously Jeremiah repeating what God told him to say, indicates that God recognizes the “fetus” as a child.  A human – made in His image.

As I read another poster say on c-unite; “I typed that real slow so’s you could understand what I’m saying.”

[ebia]

That of that piece of scripture, which is obviously Jeremiah repeating what God told him to say, indicates that God recognizes the “fetus” as a child.  A human – made in His image.

No it doesn't - its just a reflection of the limitations of human  language that uses the word for child in the expression for pregnant.  Infact, judging from the YLT:

Jeremiah 31
8   Lo, I am bringing them in from the north country, And have gathered them from the sides of the earth, Among them [are] blind and lame, Conceiving and travailing one -- together, A great assembly -- they turn back hither.

even that is an artifact of translation that isn't present in the hebrew original.  I'd be interested to know if anyone here can tell us definitively whether the hebrew word for child actually appears in that passage at all.  

[Shylynne]

Abortion is just another way that society can get rid of its unwanted burdens, as is euthanasia (killing of the elderly and terminally ill), doctor-assisted suicide, and infanticide.

God who is the very breath and creator of life, takes it very personally when man does not repect the life He has created...for He says... "as ye have done it unto one of the least of these  ye have done it unto me." (Matt 25:40)

This is the very nature of of our God, and a message we must not fail to proclaim in His name, even if the  world views us as contentious, uncompromising,  and invincibly self-righteous. So be it. Jeremiah  faithfully warned the people of the coming judgment because of their sins.

I find this  verse an especially interesting one.
Lam 4:3  Even jackals nurse their young, but my people are like ostriches that abandon their own. [cev]

The message Jeremiah preached then remains true for today,  GOD’S JUDGMENT IS COMING!"

 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Mat 13:41  

[Shylynne]

Christians Murdering Babies
by Rev. Jim Rudd

Have you ever seen a mother and daughter enter an abortion clinic together? Like all Christian preachers who have spent years preaching in front of abortion clinics, I have seen thousands of mothers and daughters entering abortion clinics together. Have you ever tried to call a maternal grandmother to repentance from murdering her grandchild as she is entering into an abortion clinic, when all along she is there to give her consent? Most Christians, who call themselves "pro-life," never see what goes on outside of abortion clinics. Most Christians do not realize that hundreds of grandparents everyday give their "consent" to murder their grandchildren in obedience to "parental consent" laws that Christians have supported and passed into law.

As Christian preachers who have seen the murder of children under laws supported by Christians, we find ourselves in the heart-rending situation of having to warn the righteous of their iniquity and call them to repentance (Ezekiel 3:18-21). Just like the pro-abortion people who will render an account in the Day of Judgment because they supported and passed laws to murder children, Christians involved in the process of supporting and passing laws to murder children will also render an account for the innocent blood they have shed.

According to recent news reports, after 30 years of Roe v. Wade, eighteen states request "parental consent" to murder children by abortion, fourteen states make an attempt to issue "parental notification", and eighteen states have some kind of "waiting period". All of these laws were supported and passed by Christians. In 30 years how many innocent babies do you think have been murdered by abortion after someone has given their consent, or after someone has been notified, or after someone waited 24 hours -- 20 million innocent babies, 25 million? God only knows.

Murder is a crying sin. The innocent blood cries out to God from the ground. Blood calls for blood, the blood of the murdered for the blood of the murderers. When innocent people are murdered, God not only hears the innocent blood crying out to Him for Justice, He also takes into account all the people responsible for the shedding of that innocent blood so Justice can be administered in the Day of Judgment. Rest assured, every person will face their accuser and every drop of innocent blood will be avenged. (Revelation 6:10; 20:12-15)

God's judgment will include, but not be limited to, every person responsible for the support and passage of laws that specifically allow for the murder of innocent people. To think otherwise is to suggest for example God will not hold Germans accountable who supported and passed Nazi laws that were used to murder innocent people. The Nazi Hunters did not find every German responsible for the Nazi holocaust, but God knows who they are. This also applies to abortion laws that are used to murder innocent children. God knows every person responsible for the support and passage of these murderous laws.

How did we ever get to the place where pro-life Christians are just as responsible and just as guilty of murdering children by abortion as the pro-abortion people? God means what He says when He says "Thou shalt not kill." For Christians to support the passage of laws that specifically allow for the killing of innocent people is in direct and open rebellion against the kingdom of God! For Christians to join in the shedding of innocent blood demonstrates a great "falling away" by Christians who have believed lies perpetrated by people who take on the appearance of religion but are in fact murderous wolves in sheep's clothing.

"Beloved, remember" we are foretold, that these things will happen in the Church. The General Epistle of Jude warns us that "certain men crept in unawares" (v.4), who "have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward" (v.11). We see these people everyday within the pro-life movement -- within the Church! Political special interest groups lying to Christians by calling these murderous laws "pro-life" so they can raise financial support -- bringing Christians into murderous bondage! Political partisans, who care more for their political party than they do for the ways of God! The lesson in the Book of Jude is that we are to be watchful against such evil and perverse men springing up in the Church, and when they do, we must contend earnestly for the faith in opposition to those who would corrupt society with such lies. Now I know that there are many pro-life Christians out there who have never thought about the consequences of supporting the passage of these murderous laws -- because you were mislead into believing that such laws were "pro-life" and you believed the lie. The good news is that God has provided for you a refuge of hope against the Day of Judgment for your personal involvement in murdering children.

In the Old Testament the LORD commanded Moses to appoint cities of refuge where the slayer may flee, "which killeth any person at unawares" or unwittingly. (Numbers 35: 9-15). Today, Jesus Christ is our City of Refuge. The mercies of salvation, through Christ, prefigured by these cities in the Old Testament, are Christ raised up on the cross; exalted at the right hand of the Father, as Lord and Saviour, to give repentance and remission of sins. Thus Jesus is The Only Refuge from destruction for His people who unwittingly "killeth any person".

All Christians involved in supporting or passing these murderous abortion laws -- yet at the time you supported them you honestly believed you were doing something good -- God knows who you are. Cry out for repentance! Turn away from being involved with these murderous laws and flee to Christ. For Jesus has compassion upon ignorant people in His Church, and He knows the hearts of men. Give thanks and praise His Holy name for He knows the hearts of men.

[ebia]

That of that piece of scripture, which is obviously Jeremiah repeating what God told him to say, indicates that God recognizes the “fetus” as a child.  A human – made in His image.

No it doesn't - its just a reflection of the limitations of human  language that uses the word for child in the expression for pregnant.  Infact, judging from the YLT:

Jeremiah 31
8   Lo, I am bringing them in from the north country, And have gathered them from the sides of the earth, Among them [are] blind and lame, Conceiving and travailing one -- together, A great assembly -- they turn back hither.

even that is an artifact of translation that isn't present in the hebrew original.  I'd be interested to know if anyone here can tell us definitively whether the hebrew word for child actually appears in that passage at all.  

I'll take the silence as a "no" then.  Scratch that verse from your 'proof'

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Shylynne,

AMEN!! Thank you for sharing that message with us. There is definitely a message there for all of us. I'm sure that many Christians did think they were doing something to stop abortion when they voted to require parental consent. The problem was they didn't have the choice we wanted on the ballot. There wasn't a box on the ballot for STOP THE KILLING NOW!!!

I think it would be fair to say that legalized abortion was a corruption of our court system, distortion of the Constitution, and complete disregard for the Holy Bible. I don't think they are going to give us a ballot with the choice of STOP THE KILLING NOW!!! If we signed enough petitions to force a ballot with this choice, our so-called Supreme Court would rule it Unconstitutional. It would be much like the removal of our religious freedoms. We really need a Constitutional Convention to properly address Godly issues like this.

I really don't know of any other alternatives. I honestly think that many Christians have put things off because they thought Jesus was coming soon. Those same thoughts were present in the 1950s when they took prayer out of our schools.

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

[Shylynne]

Abortion and the Pulpit

Why Pastors Avoid the Abortion Issue And What to Do About That

By Ernest L. Ohlhoff, NRLC Director of Outreach


"Sure I know abortion is wrong but I can't preach about it because there are at least ten (twenty, thirty...) members in my congregation who have had an abortion. I don't want to alienate them (or make them feel guilty) by making them relive their abortion."

This is by far the most common reason offered by pastors to explain why they will not give a pro-life sermon or homily, much less allow a pro-life committee to be formed in their church. This is a very human, understandable response, rooted in a desire to avoid opening a wound.

Yet, as we shall see, this reluctance to speak out honestly about abortion results in the very consequences silence is supposed to avoid: hurt, alienation, and intense emotional pain.

Many pastors preach regularly about other moral issues - - alcoholism, drug abuse, poverty, discrimination, terrorism, etc. - - but abortion always somehow seems to fall below the radar screen. As a result, (when they think about it at all) many/most church members consider abortion to be wrong but not that wrong. How can it be all that significant when the pastor never preaches against it?

However, the unfortunate consequence is that the number of people in a given church involved in an abortion experience will continue to grow. This aftermath of silence - - even more abortions - - increases the pressure on the pastor to "low profile" the issue publicly and try to deal with it on a one-on- one basis.

So, the bitter irony is that by not speaking about abortion (for fear of hurting women), even more women are victimized. Truth is truth. When the truth is conveyed lovingly and compassionately, the door is open to experience a wonderfully healing balm.

One of the best ways to take away the fear of speaking about abortion is for the pastor to invite another pastor, one well versed in presenting the abortion issue, to give guest homilies or sermons. Such speakers are not hard to find.

I have personally seen pastors (or visiting pastors) deliver well constructed pro-life sermons to a congregation that had never previously heard such as message. On at least five occasions the congregations erupted in spontaneous applause.

Why? People are hungry for moral guidance. Deep down almost everyone who has a functioning conscience knows that abortion is wrong.

Truth is truth. When the truth of abortion's ugly nature is presented compassionately, caringly, and with moral clarity, most people will appreciate the candor and courage of the pastor.

Many women (and men) are in desperate need of spiritual healing. Other women are experiencing difficult pregnancies. Unless they have the courage to seek counseling from their pastor, they may conclude that having an abortion is no big deal because it is never mentioned in church or that the pastor is uncomfortable with the issue.

Our job is to help pastors see that no issue is more relevant to their vocation than saving unborn babies and their mothers.

[edited for length]

[Shylynne]

I honestly think that many Christians have put things off because they thought Jesus was coming soon.

You know I think you`ve made quite a point there, and that reminded me of the parable... then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom...and  then...when the bridegroom tarried...they fell asleep.

The following essay sends a great wake up call to Gods people:

Never Give Up
by Joel Belz

Most folks, deep down, know there’s something terribly wrong with taking the life of a little baby.

As Ken Connor of Family Research Council says, “They want to talk about pro-choice, but it’s not choosing between chocolate and vanilla. We’re talking about the right to choose to kill an unborn child.”

It may seem repetitive, but that’s the reality. Maybe we’ve just gotten tired of saying it. We shouldn’t. For it is still the ugly truth about abortion. And we need to take advantage of the fact that most people know it. We need to strip away the denial that has enveloped us all.

So what has so much silenced so many of us pro-lifers? I think it may be in part that:

We also forget that God’s grace is big enough to cover even this terrible sin. My guess is that—and while it is only a guess, I’m not totally naive—the reality of abortion is much more prevalent in evangelical Christian circles, and perhaps even among pro-lifers, than we have generally acknowledged. Such a fact naturally tends to mute our once noisy protests.

Life is so much easier when we can paint everything in shades of black and white. If we can always be the good guys, and always portray Kate Michelman and Gloria Feldt as unique promoters of evil, what simplicity (and monotony) that brings to our lives.

But if we have sin of our own to confess, the story line gets a bit more complex. Now it’s not just that we’re calling on society to end an evil practice. Now we no longer merely extend to the Kate Michelmans and the Eleanor Smeals of the world some theoretic promise of forgiveness from God. Now we brokenly ask them to join us in begging God to pardon not just their behavior, but our own as well.

I think that puts abortion in a new perspective. It is, of course, a bloody practice. It is, from so many angles, an almost unthinkable act. America’s toleration of abortion must grieve God.

But the bottom line is that unless and until we have dealt with our own sin, and in the process publicly demonstrated how vast God’s forgiveness can be, we are in no position to expect reform in the rest of society. Judgment—and mercy —always begin with the house of God.


© World Magazine, 2003.

[nChrist]

Shylynne Said:

You know I think you`ve made quite a point there, and that reminded me of the parable... then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom...and  then...when the bridegroom tarried...they fell asleep.

Oklahoma Howdy to Shylynne,

First, more thanks for sharing more truth about the ugly and evil subject of abortion. It is true that the women who have abortions suffer in more ways than one in this short life. A loving presentation of the truth might finally give them the will to get on their knees, ask God for forgiveness, let the blood of Jesus wash away this sin that torments them, and let Jesus heal them.

The parable of the ten virgins is also an excellent description of much of the Church which is the BODY of CHRIST. YES!, many have fallen asleep and neglected HIS WILL. It is a beautiful thought to think and hope that our Lord and Saviour will come for us today or tomorrow. However, we all need a wake-up call and continue to do HIS WILL until our moments on this dark and evil world are over. The lamps are also an appropriate description. Our lamps should shine in the darkness until the LORD OF ALL LIGHT replaces it.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.  Revelation 21:23

Thank you Sister.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[DovesWings]

Just a couple things to add:

They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood. Psalm 106

It has been stated If the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But God can.

Abortion is just wrong...

[Reba]

Does anyone here have a report, published artical, anything showing DTS  stand against abortion, over the last 30 or so years?
 

[Shylynne]

Psa 127:3 Children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

 To destroy what has been implanted in the womb is to destroy Gods creation. Anyone who does this must be prepared to justify it before our eternal God.

Rth 4:13  So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

The Word tell us all things great and small are made by Him and for Him. Every blade of grass and every hill, every tree and every cloud, every drop of rain and every ocean, all creatures and all people, and every tiny unborn child are miracles of God's handiwork, signs of His  presence among us.

 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psa 8:2  Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Psa 8:3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

 But if a unborn child cannot be allowed to die by reason of the mother, what about preventing the suffering of a child? And then a blind child is born...and Christ tells us "This happened so that the works of God might be revealed in him."

The grand design of our creator, preparing a unborn baby to show forth His handiwork, and by his life the faith of millions be strengthened.  How many of these  tiny lights were so unashamedly snuffed out by the hands of mankind.

A loving presentation of the truth might finally give them the will to get on their knees, ask God for forgiveness, let the blood of Jesus wash away this sin that torments them, and let Jesus heal them. amen

But God can.  
Yes God can.

[Shylynne]

I dont think this thread needs more graphics, but after having  viewed this film, (it is very difficult to watch) I  decided  that if it helps to save the life of even one baby by someone passing on this link, it is worth having shared.

Testimonial: After showing this film to thousands of women contemplating an abortion, we can testify to its powerful impact on them to choose life for their preborn child. We encourage you to show it to others.

WARNING: THIS WEBSITE GRAPHICALLY SHOWS AN ABORTION 11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION AND THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED BY CHILDREN.

http://silentscream.org/video1.htm

[the John Deere man]

not the greatest bible guy but i do have this to say....

The Scripture says "THOU SHALL NOT KILL"   dose that not mean any thing to you abortion backers out there, for crieng out loud open up and be willing to lean differently??  in other words you are doomed if you are an abortion doc.  

i am also against the death penalty cause of the "shall not kill "part

oh well  

[Angel123]

Abortion is wrong,it is murder.The Lord give it,and take it
away. Not humans.