Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[2nd Timothy]

That's not remotely what I said.  Stop building straw men.  I know it's easier than engaging in what I actually said, but it does nothing but make you look an idiot.

Its not?

Reba said: An unborn child is human. it is not a plant nor a puppy it is a live human.
 
Ebia said: Say's who?  That's your opinion; it's also my opinion, but it isn't self evident that a 4 cell embryo is fully human.

I'm still waiting for an explaination to how a 4 celled embryo inside a woman could be a puppy or a plant.  The problem here is, you cannot admit its human because that would force you face the moral implications of abortion.  So you tell me...who is really building straw men here?  

Webster's is not a good dictionary.  Try the (pocket) oxford:

Why?  Because it leaves out the part about death?  Come on Ebia.  

Regardless, no-one is saying that the foetus doens't die.  The claim is that a foetus is not fully human.  You're spending your time addressing a line of argument that no-one is making.

Again, this is rediculous.   The fetus in a mothers womb is nothing but human (unless you have evidence of the puppy plant theory to show).  By your own admission here, the fetus suffers death.   Seems to me you are the one avoiding the argument made here.

2nd Timothy: It is clear to me that this addresses an unborn child as equal to that of a living man.  
 
 
Ebia: That's one reasonable inference to draw from that passage, but it is not the only one.  Consequently the passage is evidence for your position, but not proof.

2nd Timothy :Quote:
*you shall give Life for Life*  should the miscarried child die!  
 

Ebia: That is a connection that you've made, that is not necessarly intended by God.  
 
You really are in self denial arent you?   The command says, Life for Life!  And it is regarding the life of the unborn, and the life of a man.   Life is Life.  There is no way for you to wiggle out of this verse.

The above passage refers to violence against the mother that results in the loss of the child.  Why does scripture not speak out directly against abortion (which has been going on since biblical times)?

I find it interesting you can admit the unborn is a child here.
Its clear that God gave us enough scripture to draw moral conclusions from what was already given Ebia.  We already know the taking of a human life is a crime.  We know that an unborn child inside the womb of its mother can be nothing but human.   And if thats not enough for you.....

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God is the owner of this abode we live in, thus we also do not own the life of an embyro that would be conceived.   I have little doubt, that if one governed themselves by the sexual moral guides layed out for us in scripture, abortion would not even be an issue today.   I'm sure you have some twisted logic to rebut this, but this is not difficult for the rest of us.  Instead of coming up with rebutal, perhaps you should give this some more thought and prayer.   Its not hard to build a scriptural case against abortion.   However, I would challenge you to try and build one for it using only scripture.  The reason I say this is because when judgment day comes, the only evidence that will be allowed is going to come from that book.  Not logic or scientific evidence.  We are all going to give an account of our actions, and it had better be backed by Gods word.


Grace and Peace!

[BUTCHA]

Quote:    eba

"Is it?  Sure, it will develop into a human under the right conditions, but an egg and sperm will develop into a human under the right conditions, but I don't see you arguing for giving them full human rights."
 of course id give them full human rights.
eba if you, or someone you know is pained by this subject as i am , and i feel as though you are . i'm going to pray that any hurt you have. do to any bad desitions , someone close to you, may have made .our god is forgiveing ,and the sin is judged not the sinner , that is if the sinner in his heart truely wants to be forgiving . may  anyone, whom has falling to this acceptabe practice , in the world we live in today . not be blinded and repent. amen

[JudgeNot]

Ebia says:

What I'm pointing out is that neither the bible nor logic PROVES that abortion is murder.

Okay, ebia, I try to understand where you are coming from, but sometimes you make posts that just tick me off.

Logic?? Logic aside (I can’t see anything logical about abortion and human logic has never proven anything in human history – logic is pure theory - did you not learn that in school?), you show us where the Bible proves that it isn’t murder!

The Bible says
(Psalm 139:13,15). "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God"
(Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
(Psalm 127:3-5) "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

And what is happening now – in today’s (ebias?) backwards world?
(Matthew 15:9) "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

"I can't find it in the Bible and Men say it is okay to kill babies still in the womb so that immediately makes it just A-Okay with me."  WHAT!!??!!  If you believe that then you are an idiot and I'll be the first to call you one.

To me this is a useless argument and a waste of good oxygen (well – electricity).  I don’t understand how a practicing Christian (or Jew) can be “pro-choice” (Dear God – save us from those two words!) and still claim to even believe in our precious Lord.

I've got to stay away from this thread - I have high blood pressure to begin with.  

Riddance.

[ebia]

Quote:    eba

"Is it?  Sure, it will develop into a human under the right conditions, but an egg and sperm will develop into a human under the right conditions, but I don't see you arguing for giving them full human rights."

of course id give them full human rights.

In that case I presume you are campaigning for an end to all operations that remove ovarian cysts (and therefore destroy eggs) and operations that remove (and therefore sperm) as hard as you are campaigning against abortions.

[ebia]

That's not remotely what I said.  Stop building straw men.  I know it's easier than engaging in what I actually said, but it does nothing but make you look an idiot.

Its not?

Reba said: An unborn child is human. it is not a plant nor a puppy it is a live human.
 
Ebia said: Say's who?  That's your opinion; it's also my opinion, but it isn't self evident that a 4 cell embryo is fully human.

I'm still waiting for an explaination to how a 4 celled embryo inside a woman could be a puppy or a plant.

You haven't eliminated all the possiblities.  Just because a 4 celled embryo cannot become a puppy or a plant does not prove that it is human and more than it proves it is an small planet.

The problem here is, you cannot admit its human because that would force you face the moral implications of abortion.  So you tell me...who is really building straw men here?  

I can only presume from this that you don't even undertand the term "straw men"

Webster's is not a good dictionary.  Try the (pocket) oxford:

Why?  Because it leaves out the part about death?  Come on Ebia.  

No, because websters is such a bad dictionary that no-one outside the US even thinks its worth the paper the on-line version is written on.

Regardless, no-one is saying that the foetus doens't die.  The claim is that a foetus is not fully human.  You're spending your time addressing a line of argument that no-one is making.

Again, this is rediculous.   The fetus in a mothers womb is nothing but human (unless you have evidence of the puppy plant theory to show).  

human, puppy and plant are not the only possiblities.   Another is an embryo, which has the potential to become human but is not yet human.  

By your own admission here, the fetus suffers death.   Seems to me you are the one avoiding the argument made here.

I've not avoided that at all.  That it dies is clear, that it is human is not.

You really are in self denial arent you?   The command says, Life for Life!  And it is regarding the life of the unborn, and the life of a man.   Life is Life.  There is no way for you to wiggle out of this verse.

If it really is as simple as full human life for full human life then that would apply whether or not further harm was done - which goes against Ex 21:22.

The above passage refers to violence against the mother that results in the loss of the child.  Why does scripture not speak out directly against abortion (which has been going on since biblical times)?

I find it interesting you can admit the unborn is a child here.

Two reasons:
1.  there isn't a good word to use in its stead.
2.  As I've repeatedly said, in my view it is a child, but I don't think the case is conclusive.

Its clear that God gave us enough scripture to draw moral conclusions from what was already given Ebia.
 We already know the taking of a human life is a crime.  We know that an unborn child inside the womb of its mother can be nothing but human.  

No we don't.   We know that it can become nothing but human (or dead).  That does not prove that it is human.

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God is the owner of this abode we live in, thus we also do not own the life of an embyro that would be conceived.

We don't own anything.  Everything we have (ourselves, the unborn, our house) we only hold as stewards.

 I have little doubt, that if one governed themselves by the sexual moral guides layed out for us in scripture, abortion would not even be an issue today.  

Rubbish.  It would be a heck of a lot less common, but it would still happen as it always did in families who simply couldn't afford another child.

I'm sure you have some twisted logic to rebut this, but this is not difficult for the rest of us.  Instead of coming up with rebutal, perhaps you should give this some more thought and prayer.   Its not hard to build a scriptural case against abortion.  

Maybe you should give it a try then.  You haven't so far.

However, I would challenge you to try and build one for it using only scripture.

I can't build much of a case for many things from scripture, including which route I should walk home, simply because it doesn't attempt to answer that question.

The reason I say this is because when judgment day comes, the only evidence that will be allowed is going to come from that book.

Then we are all toast, because there is so much that that book doesn't answer.   Unlike you, I don't expect to answer to a book, I expect to answer to God, and I expect to get my guidance from God, some of which guidance comes via the bible, and some elsewhere.

Not logic or scientific evidence.  We are all going to give an account of our actions, and it had better be backed by Gods word.

Stop trying to follow a book, and start trying to follow the God who communicates through it.

[ebia]

Ebia says:

What I'm pointing out is that neither the bible nor logic PROVES that abortion is murder.

Okay, ebia, I try to understand where you are coming from, but sometimes you make posts that just tick me off.

Logic?? Logic aside (I can’t see anything logical about abortion and human logic has never proven anything in human history – logic is pure theory - did you not learn that in school?),

Without logic you can't piece together what the bible says about anything, or even read the bible in the first place.

you show us where the Bible proves that it isn’t murder!

It doesn't.  It doesn't answer answer the question conclusively either way - any more than it answers many other questions.

The Bible says
(Psalm 139:13,15). "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God"
(Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

The bible makes clear we are His from BEFORE we were concieved, yet we are clearly not human then.  You are adding meaning to these verses that is not necessarly intended.

(Psalm 127:3-5) "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

This talks of children, not of the unborn.  Again you are reading meaning into the poetry that you want to be there.

"I can't find it in the Bible and Men say it is okay to kill babies still in the womb so that immediately makes it just A-Okay with me."  WHAT!!??!!  If you believe that then you are an idiot and I'll be the first to call you one.

I've never said that - another straw man.

To me this is a useless argument and a waste of good oxygen (well – electricity).  I don’t understand how a practicing Christian (or Jew) can be “pro-choice” (Dear God – save us from those two words!) and still claim to even believe in our precious Lord.

You should have stopped after the second word of the second sentence.  You don't understand because you don't listen.  (or you're stupid, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.)

[ebia]

No we don't.  We know that it can become nothing but human (or dead).  That does not prove that it is human.

Made a mistake here - of course becoming a human or becoming dead are not the only possible outcomes for a four cell embryo.

[2nd Timothy]

Quote:
I'm sure you have some twisted logic to rebut this, but this is not difficult for the rest of us.  Instead of coming up with rebutal, perhaps you should give this some more thought and prayer.  Its not hard to build a scriptural case against abortion.  

Maybe you should give it a try then.  You haven't so far.

Quote:
However, I would challenge you to try and build one for it using only scripture.  
 
I can't build much of a case for many things from scripture, including which route I should walk home, simply because it doesn't attempt to answer that question.

Quote:
The reason I say this is because when judgment day comes, the only evidence that will be allowed is going to come from that book.  
 
Then we are all toast, because there is so much that that book doesn't answer.  Unlike you, I don't expect to answer to a book, I expect to answer to God, and I expect to get my guidance from God, some of which guidance comes via the bible, and some elsewhere.

Quote:
Not logic or scientific evidence.  We are all going to give an account of our actions, and it had better be backed by Gods word.
 
Stop trying to follow a book, and start trying to follow the God who communicates through it.

These reponses tell me all I need to know.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I wont waste any more time on this, as you are unable to see it anyway.

Grace and Peace!

[ebia]

Quote:
I'm sure you have some twisted logic to rebut this, but this is not difficult for the rest of us.  Instead of coming up with rebutal, perhaps you should give this some more thought and prayer.  Its not hard to build a scriptural case against abortion.  

Maybe you should give it a try then.  You haven't so far.

Quote:
However, I would challenge you to try and build one for it using only scripture.  
 
I can't build much of a case for many things from scripture, including which route I should walk home, simply because it doesn't attempt to answer that question.

Quote:
The reason I say this is because when judgment day comes, the only evidence that will be allowed is going to come from that book.  
 
Then we are all toast, because there is so much that that book doesn't answer.  Unlike you, I don't expect to answer to a book, I expect to answer to God, and I expect to get my guidance from God, some of which guidance comes via the bible, and some elsewhere.

Quote:
Not logic or scientific evidence.  We are all going to give an account of our actions, and it had better be backed by Gods word.
 
Stop trying to follow a book, and start trying to follow the God who communicates through it.

These reponses tell me all I need to know.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I wont waste any more time on this, as you are unable to see it anyway.

Grace and Peace!

There's a primary school kid's response that seems somehow appropriate here, but I'll refrain from using it.

[nChrist]

2nd Timothy Said:

These reponses tell me all I need to know.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I wont waste any more time on this, as you are unable to see it anyway.

Grace and Peace!

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

Most Christians here have reached the same conclusion. You are quite correct that it is a waste of time. Biblical morals are completely foreign to some folks.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[BUTCHA]

eba you said
"In that case I presume you are campaigning for an end to all operations that remove ovarian cysts (and therefore destroy eggs) and operations that remove (and therefore sperm) as hard as you are campaigning against abortions. "

you know if a person was haveing health issues of any kind that of coarse the should let a docter operate, but i dont think we are talking about that. we are saying abortion is a form of birth control , not a form of medical procedure to repair a illness in a human .

sorry i will not post in this thread any longer. for i think we have beatten it to death . im affraid eba will be saying we have killed it.
and we are guilty of.....................
The First Known Thread Abortion   and i recspect all threads right to live , even anti catholic ones. only the big guy has the right to kill a thread, the monerator.wich in african pigmie tribes means god kind of scary huh.

[ebia]

eba you said
"In that case I presume you are campaigning for an end to all operations that remove ovarian cysts (and therefore destroy eggs) and operations that remove (and therefore sperm) as hard as you are campaigning against abortions. "

you know if a person was haveing health issues of any kind that of coarse the should let a docter operate, but i dont think we are talking about that. we are saying abortion is a form of birth control , not a form of medical procedure to repair a illness in a human .

So you don't oppose abortion where there is a genuine threat to the health of the mother then?  (That's not the position of many anti-abortion campaigners.)

[Reba]

1 Kings 3:25-27

25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.


26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.


27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.
KJV

[JudgeNot]

(Psalm 127:3-5) "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

 

This talks of children, not of the unborn.  Again you are reading meaning into the poetry that you want to be there.

What ebia calls “poetry” I call scripture. The prophesies in Psalms must be "just poetry” to Ebia, also.  

Jeremiah 31:8 (NKJV)
Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.

The woman was with child.  Not with embryo, not with fetus, but with child.  But Jeremiah is just another piece of poetry to Ebia. Ebia picks and chooses only the scripture he wishes to believe.  I wonder why Ebia evens bothers opening the Bible?  It is meaningless to him.

[ebia]

What ebia calls “poetry” I call scripture. The prophesies in Psalms must be "just poetry” to Ebia, also.  

of course they're not "just poetry", but the language they use is poetical, and if you don't take that into account when reading them you're going to tie yourself in some huge knots.

Jeremiah 31:8 (NKJV)
Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.

And the relevance of this to the subject in hand is?