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1  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: May 03, 2004, 01:58:23 PM

Quote
posted by bronzesanke
...pre-trib made it's appearance in the gospels some two thousand years ago.

That's it for me my friend, go ahead and debate it with yourself. I'll see you in the clouds...pre-trib! Cheesy

Bronzesnake

bz

See what I mean, history does not support your claim..

You are confused my friend..............................you confuse pre trib with pre mill.

The first century church believed in a pre mill rapture (not to be confused with pre trib) Peter and  Paul taught it, using OT prophecies, of which the Lord Himself refered to Himself.

The church's position was always a post trib rapture, and always taught in the context of the Lord Second Coming, Peter at Acts 2:16-21, refers to Joel 2, and clearly is refering to the last days and the signs which will accompany His return, in that day.

Another Major Problem which acompanies the traditional dispensationlists pre trib view is that of multiple salvation plans, in order to accomodate their theory, they have devised different plans of salvation for Israel and he Church.

Pre Tribbers claim that during the great trib the plan of salvation will incorporate the OT Mosaic Covenant in some way, and is seen as having to do with works along with faith.

In spite of the Bibles teaching that Salvation was, is and will be, by the blood of Christ, regardless of whether they lived before or after the cross.

If the animal sacrifices "could never take away sin", ALL OT Saints who died in FAITH of Gods promises, were covered by Jesus Blood which is retroactive for them, ( I have given you the verses, Heb 9:15, Eph1:10, Heb 11:40, Eph 3:14-15) there are natural sons (natural branches which will be grafter in) yet to be saved, which are partakers of the original promises confirmed in to Jacob and ther nation.

Jesus, confirms his coming is after the great tribulaiton (Mat 24:29-30, It cannot be made any clearer than this.

Paul even banked his life on these sayings when he stood before Agrippa;

He saw his mission to the gentiles as the fulfillment of Israel's hope,when he said;

I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, ...........
Acts 26:6-7

In recountiung his conversion on the road to Damascus, Jesus commissions him to preach the Gospel to the gentiles, he continues;

Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:...............
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:............
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Acts 26:19,22-23

When Jesus spoke to His disciples He spoke to them in language they understood, though they could not know of John's visions of Jesus at Revelation (which was written 60 approx. years later) which God gave unto Him (Rev 1:1), they inderstood that His Second Coming would be in the future, at the sounding of the trumpet, at His Second Coming The Day of the Lord, a physical and visible retutnr, and they understood it to be after the Great Tribulation because He said to them:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 Mat 24:29-31

His gathering of His Elect, will be

from one end of heaven to the other.

Problem with the pre trib view is the ones in heaven have already been gathered once, yet this is the only gathering spoken of in the scriptures, and it is pre wrath, post trib, pre mill.

No pre tribber can square this up to their theory.

The prophet Isaiah at chapter 2, speasks clearly of that time.

Only by ignoring and discounting JESUS OWN WORDS and believing this obscure teaching can one conclude there will be a secret rapture of believers.

I think this might very well be the strong delusion visited by God, upon those who do not believe Jesus own Words.

This great deception when exposed, will probably be followed by the great Apostasy because of great offense people will take at not being taken out at the pre trib, since it is clear the deception has taken root, and is now being believed by those who call themselves christians, after this great falling away, the revelation of the man of sin is fulfilled followed by the Lords physical and visible return..

There is hope in Gods Words and that is the the Ellect will not be deceived.

Examine yourselves...whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. 2 Cor 13:5


Hey what else can I say, except confirm what is written for your edification..........


Petro  

2  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: May 03, 2004, 03:12:03 AM
One last thing,  it is amazing to me, how the church today, especially those who hold to a pre trib view, see themselves as blessed moreso, than the natural sons of God, the scriptures are clear we are adopted by God, made possible by the promise, made to Abraham, concerning Jesus. (Gal 3:6-29) Really,  only because we are in Christ Jesus.

And these, in the church who hold to this theory, of the pre tribe,  forget God established His New Covenant with THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW (Jews), then believing Israel (the remnant- His disciples) received ADOPTED SONS (Gentiles).

We now have the same blessings and promises as natural sons of Abraham.

The scriptures even refer to gentiles as; real Jews, in this dispensation even those with a circumcised heart as  the adopted sons of Abraham, we also even receive the OT promises. (Rom 2:28-29, 4:13-16, 9:6-8, Heb 6:12-20), Gentiles are grafted in see ( Rom 11:1-7, 11:16-27)

What's more, in revealing the mystery which had been given him at Eph 2-3,  Paul even said the Old Testament and New Testament saints are in Christ. This union had already taken place prior to Paul's writing to the Ephesian church, notice;


Eph 1
1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4
4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I tell you.............

The more I look at pre tribe rapture theory, the more problems I see with it, which are irreconcilable to the scriptural teachings of these things.

Petro
3  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: May 03, 2004, 02:28:34 AM
The "trumpet" of 1 Cor 15:52, is the same "trumpet" of Joel 2:1, and Zephaniah 1:16..

When Paul wrote this letter to the Corithtians, from Ephesus (c.56 AD), the Letter of Revelation was not yet written (c. 81-96 AD).

So the trumpet, of which Paul wrote to the Corinthians, could only have been understood, in the context of the OT prophetic scriptures. They would know that the trumpet of verse 52 would be refering to the "Day of the Lord" and His Second Coming.

There never was in the history of the church a teaching which supported a coming before the "The Day of the Lord"
it wasn't until some began to add to Gods Word,in the 17th century,  that a pre Second Coming event was introduced, and is now, so popular, that know doubt Holywood, will make a movie soon, of the most recent fictional writings of the rapture.

However, for us, who live in this generation, we can because ,of the complete word of God, look forward and accurately place the timing of the "trumpet" and the "rapture" at the same point in future prophetic timeline, yet to be fulfilled scriptures, and it appears it will occur within our generation.


Watch and Wait should be formost on our minds.

Blessings,

Petro
4  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: May 03, 2004, 02:09:15 AM
Petro.

It's obvious that you love the Lord, and study scriptures thoroughly. In this instance I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree my brother.

 Take care.

Bronzesnake





bz,

Well I have no idea who coined this term (we'll simply have to agree to disagree), Christians who are taught of God, and claim to possess His Spirit, should not disagree, at all.

But unfortunately some do, bvecause of thier willingness to do as you have stated.

I hate to see, you an the others walk away with this being your final statement, rather than facing the error you embrace, while claiming to know and love His word.

But since that is what you desire, why should I keep you...

As I had stated earlier, I reject the "pseudo ephrean" letter as a false document, and this is the reason why, I found no reason to make further comment about it, you apparently place great wait on it, to support your theory, so as you continue to contemplate the coming times and the rapture, I would ask that you consider and ask yourself, the following;

Why was the pre-trib rapture view only discovered, and documented in the history of the church, centuries after its founding by Jesus (include the pseudo ephrean, since not one church father even ever, mentions a pre trib rapture)?

If it is truly part of the "Faith once delivered to the saints, why did the early Church know nothing of it, until it began being taught in the 17th century?

Since noone has answered, my question concerning the difference of the Called, Chosen, Elect Saints of God, consider,the implications of the pre trib theory, where it separates OT Called, Chosen, Elect Saints from, NT Called Chosen, Elect Saints, while the scriptures clearly show them being redeemed from ALL of their trasngressions by the same blood of the $Eternal Gospel, this makes them members of the same body, note;

Heb 9
15  And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Eph 1
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


Heb 11
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Eph 3
14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Pre Tribbers, forget that the church is made up of ALL the believers from all dispensations, begining with Adam, who believed God and  the apostle says concerning those who obey;

Acts 5
32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If you could separate OT believers from the NT believers, then very possibly you might make the case for being able to separate, NT post resurrection believers from the tribulation believers, unfortunately this is an impossibility, since ALL who are declared righteous by God, are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Because (as IO stated earlier) the Gospel of the Kingdom is an Eternal and an Everlasting Gospel of eternal redemption and the promise of eternal inheritance comes only through the blood of Christ via. the New Covenant.

Old Testament saints are brought into the New Covenant, and made complete along with us.  

bronzesnake,  it is in the way one studies the scriptures which determines what one will believe, reading about theories, then looking up select scriptures in an effort to support the theory, is no way to go about it.

Traditional dispensationalists separate Gods people, because they willingly believe what others teach them (they would rather be taught by others, rather than the Comforter), they know not what the word of God teaches plainly.

This is the deception.................in the midst of the church.

I simply do not care to disagree for the sake of disagreeing with others, I desire to know the truth about what the Spirit teaches, so that I will not disagree with HIM.

As I see it, you guys are stuck, unable to answer questions, because you won't face  up to the truth, you even are willing to, disagree for the sake of disagreeing instead of backing up and re examiniing your theories.

Throwing in the towel, is no way to excersice the senses to discern what is true, from what is not, while claiming to only believe what Gods Word teaches.



Blessings anyhow,

Petro
5  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: May 01, 2004, 10:49:46 PM
Petro...

 
Quote
Ohhhh....really, perhaps you can explain the difference??...........paul2 and others haven't, perhaps you can expalin that difference, but please give sound scripture...

What is the difference of the, Called Elect Chosen Saints of God, post resurrection and those which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb of Rev 7:14??

You and they, have never answered this because  YOU KNOW there is no difference, if anyone knows anything, you know there is no difference and this is why you ignore this question.

 It has been fully explained to you Petro, including sound Biblical references, however, you refuse to open your eyes to the truth.

 There's no getting through to you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

bz,

Suurree..............sound biblical references, thats a good one...

Sorry bz, but it is clear to me, you do not know what you are talking about....if you did, you would site the refernece where this was done...

But you can't even do that because it hasn't been explained at all, using the Scriptures.

That ois why, you have two classes of born again Christians in your eschatology, which you cannot reconcile to the Chruch.

Some in and some out.

It is clear the ones saved after your pre trib rapture, are not saved by keeping the Mosaic Law, and offering up sacrifices for their sins, but by the shed blood and faith of Jesus at the cross, of whom  HE (Jesus) intercedes for until Satan is cast out of heaven, here is a sound Biblical scripture which supports this very teaching;

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Jesus intercedes for His people in the heavenlies, while the accuser of the brethern makes the accusations of our brethern the called chosen elect Saints, whom Peter refered to at;

Acts 11
4  But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
..................................................
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

You and others are hard pressed to prove using scripture that the Tribulation Saints will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Since the scriptures are clear, that all who belong to Him, are sealed by the Spirit of Promise.

Acts 2
16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Jews who are saved during the end times, will be saved in like manner as Cornelius and his household, spoken of at Acts 10, and rehearse in chapter 11, by Peter..

How do you explain this??  

Only by ignoring scriptures, can you...



Good luck..

Petro



6  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 30, 2004, 12:00:21 PM
Quote
bronzesanke's reply #26

Petro.

You're right...half way. I should have added those additional verses. I do understand the context of the verses, and your point about "a religious person" is no doubt addressed, but God goes even further than that Petro. God clearly says...

"every soul of man that doeth evil"

When the verses I posted are shorn up with the additional verses, it really goes well to substantiate the fact that saved Christians are not headed for Tribulation or Wrath.

bz,

It is clear to me, you have no idea, that chapter 2 of the book of Romans, is speaking of the unregenrate, outwardly religious, your twisting of the verses of course give you a skewed understanding of the context of what is written, this is the deep seated root of your problem.
And because of it,  this is the reason why,  you embrace the doctrine of no eternal security in those who believe and have been regenrated by the Spirit of God.
Deceiving and being deceived, that the blood of Jesus has not covered all of your sins, past, present and future; ohhhhh.....yes I hear you, when you mouth and give lip service to your believing that Jesus blood covers all your sins, however your own words prove you really believe, otherwise, claiming it is ultimately by your own efforts and observance of commandments that will, in the end deliver you from the wrath to come, which awaits  "every soul of man that doeth evil"

Quote
You claim these verses of warning are exclusively for "religious persons" but what is a "religous person" as described in these verses? These verses describe people who live by the Law Petro. Who are they? They are non-believers Petro, they are not saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ Petro.

You just made my point, you do not understand these scriptures!
Verse 4, makes it clear the religious men of this passage of scripture, are unrepentant, and would rather live by the Mosaic Law, rather than bend the knee to the GRACE of God manifested in sacrificial blood of  Jesus given at HIS Cross for ALL sin once and for all, these are clearly those who are referenced at Acts 15, who claimed Christians must keep the Law and be circumcised.
Kind of like those who, claim today, it is needfull to be baptized (spiritually circumcise oneself) and keep commandments, or one will lose the Free Gift, of which you are a promoter..
The Law, refered to in this passage herein, is the Mosaic Law, not just the 10 commandments, you ,of course you are referring to just the 10 commandments.
And, I understand what you are insinuating herein, bronzesanke; ...... unfortunately your presumptious claim herein, overlooks the fact, that I have from the begining and since I began posting on this forum, have claimed, that Gods grace is such that, our conversion was not, nor is it based on anything we have done, nor can ever do, and observance of the Law, never saved anyone, since, the Law was our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, and once that is accomplished we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal3:24-25)

Understanding this is truly what sets people free.
Keeping Gods commandments are not necessary for Salvation, they are proof that one is saved, this is the only way, one can prove to other men, who enquire of us if we are truly saved. Keeping His commadments and doing good to the glory of God.

Quote
So the dire warnings of Tribulation and Wrath are directed at them.

When you read these verses it becomes clear that there is a distinction made between those who will see Tribulation and Wrath and those who will not. So, in the very least Petro, we have here, a clear statement from God that there will be some who will not see Tribulation and Wrath. Otherwise why was God so specific about what kind of people
Here is another point you make, which clearly shows you do not have a grasp of what is biblically taught by scripture...
Jesus said;
In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

I have not experienced tribulation ion my life time, and I can safely say, you probaly have not either 'till now; but tribulation in this world is not wrath (of God) don't confuse the two, and you do, ......... this is why there is confusion in your camp concerning these things.

The wrath spoken of at verse 5, is clearly explained in the next four verses, note;

 5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

This is not speaking of the wrath God visits upon the ungodly at the Second Coming of Jesus, at all.  

Since, the second portion of verse 5, gives us a clue to the day of this wrath, Paul at the begining of the verse, says;

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath"..,

Just as Christians are encouraged by Jesus words to;

lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Mat 6:20-21)

These of Rom 2:5,  because of; thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath, against the day of warth, because they have rejected the FREE GIFT.. "treasure up" judgementfor themselves, just as if they were building a fortune of gold and silver that will be revealed at the White Throne Judgement, where the
"every soul of man that doeth evil" will be tried; see Rev 20:11-15, in that day;

the judgment of God will be seen to be absolutely without prejudice and injustice of any kind.

The Great Tribulation saints experience on this earth, is not the Wrath of God, your theory that Romans 2, is speaking of the Great Tribulation on the earth, once again exposes your mis understanding of the teaching of scripture, since the Souls of men are not judged at all at this time, it is only by the stretch of your imagination that this appears to be so, to you..

Nothing else you say, concerning Romans 2, beyond this point,  even touches the context of its scriptural teachingl.



Quote
Petro.
Either you're being deceitful, or you have a very poor memory, which would be a warning to those who would follow your theory.

You have discussed this fully with Paul2 and you should know full well that there is a difference between the "Raptured Saints" and the "Tribulation Saints".

Ohhhh....really, perhaps you can explain the difference??...........paul2 and others haven't, perhaps you can expalin that difference, but please give sound scripture...

What is the difference of the, Called Elect Chosen Saints of God, post resurrection and those which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb of Rev 7:14??

You and they, have never answered this because  YOU KNOW there is no difference, if anyone knows anything, you know there is no difference and this is why you ignore this question.

Unfortunately, you must ignore  this great truth, in order to make the pre tib rapture work for you....isn't that so??


Quote
I'm not arguing that you should accept or understand it, however, you are fully aware of the explanation. Paul2 put fourth an exhaustive explanation on the very question you have just asked, and he directed it toward you Petro, when you asked the very same question of him. I will search through the threads and find it if you continue to have "memory problems".

I really have to wonder why you act as though it has never been explained to you Petro. It smacks of dishonesty, or in the very least, antagonism. Either way, it's not honest.

Listen Petro, I'm just trying to help you see the truth of God's Word.

Well, your disertation of Romans 2, is clearly not true, how can anyone believe what you claim to be truth, when you diverge from context and basic simple language  understanding of what is written??

Petro
7  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 29, 2004, 06:08:40 PM
K, the concept in question is the time being shortened so that the elect would survive:

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Thus, not every Christian in the tribulation period will be martyred. Ofcourse many will be:

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


Obiviously martyrdom is a large part of the persecution of the saints.


Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.



This AM while reading during my morning time, I read;

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And I remembered the Jesus when He said;

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (Mat 20:16)

I then remembered eddielee's verse which he had posted, here at Mk 13, paralled to Mat 24:22.

What is amazing is that not all who are called are chosen, yet for the chosen sake the elect, those days will shortened, not for any other reason.

Then we go on to read;



31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The ALL in this verse is still speaking of the chosen elect.

Are not these members of the church, His body??

If it were not so, I would agree with a pre trib rapture, but since it is clear these (TRIBULATION SAINTS) are members of the church and therefore members of the same body of Christ, there can be no RAPTURE nor WEDDING FEAST UNION of the SAINTS to Christ, before the appointed time.

I am afraid, dispensationlists, end and begin dispensations where they decide, not where the Sovereign Creator ordains it.

His wrath does not begin on the earth until the last gentile is saved, and sealed by His Spirit.

Satan will during this time have His way with the nations, and persecute the church, and national Israel

Then God will turn to deal with the nation of Israel, and bring about the promises made to Abraham thru Isaac and confirmed Jacob, and it begins with the wrath of God, (This is when the rapture takes place) being poured out on all of the ungodly men, who hold the truth in unruighteousness.




Blessings,

Petro
8  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 29, 2004, 06:02:24 PM
K, the concept in question is the time being shortened so that the elect would survive:

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Thus, not every Christian in the tribulation period will be martyred. Ofcourse many will be:

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


Obiviously martyrdom is a large part of the persecution of the saints.


Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.



This AmM while reading during my morning time, I read;

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And I remembered the Jesus when He said;

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (Mat 20:16)

I then remembered eddielee's verse which he had posted, here at Mk 13, paralled to Mat 24:22.

What is amazing is that not all who are called are chosen, yet for the chosen sake the elect, those days will shortened, not for any other reason.

Then we go on to read;



31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The ALL in this verse is still speaking of the chosen elect.

Are not these members of the church, His body??

If it were not so, I would agree with a pre trib rapture, but since it is clear these (TRIBULATION SAINTS) are members of the church and therefore members of the same body of Christ, there can be no RAPTURE nor WEDDING FEAST UNION of the SAINTS to Christ, before the appointed time.

I am afraid, dispensationlists, end and begin dispensations where they decide, not where the Sovereign Creator ordains it.

His wrath does not begin on the earth until the last gentile is saved, and sealed by His Spirit.





Blessings,

Petro
9  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 27, 2004, 04:20:52 PM
bronzesanke,

It doesn’t do you any good to cherry pick verses  isolating them to shore up your point.

The verses you have given , don’t mean anything unless they are taken in context.

Clearly verses  8 and 9, speak of a religious person,   Is your use of them in what you are trying to say, sound biblical teaching??  

Not so, friend, very poor exegesis of these.

Being a religious Jew, is no assurance of being saved.......the whole chapter deals with the outward religious man  who claims to be authentic.  Sorry pal, this won’t fly here...........but here is the chapter for you, you may want to familiar yourself with the first  5 chapters Romans. They are excellent.

Rom 2
1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18  And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19  And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20  An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21  Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


As for your pseudo Ephraem sermon, on which you hang your hat;

 (BTW,  the word "pseudo" really does apply very well for the document you quote; [Webster‘s New World Dictionary defines this word as;

4. sham 5.bogus, false 6. untrue 7, feigned 8. spurious 9. deceptive, imitation, pretender.] ......walla.........)  


I won’t accept anything other than scripture, however, it seems to me, your seeking the truth in false sermons  really reveals the extent of your  grasping for straws, this is nothing more than a smoke screen.

I know from previous convesations with you about  Mat 24, that you claim this was written only for the Jews, and  includes only them, however, the pre trib position also agrees that  the elect at (vs’s 22, 24) as the "trib saints" and they together with the Jews, will be raptured at His (Christ's) 2nd coming.

That is where your delima begins, since the author of Pseudo claims, that the elect are the church, and they will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation.

Here is the reality of this,........... in their own words;


http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/ephraem.html

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."




I wouldn’t put a lot stock in this document, which Pre Tribbers try an use as the smoking gun, which proves a pre trib rapture teaching by early church fathers.

Why any Christian would use non canonical writings to try and disprove what is clearly taught in scripture is beyond me.

Later,

Petro
10  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 27, 2004, 12:13:57 PM
spirit2,

Amen,


Here is a couple of questions.........for anybody...that cares to answer them.

Can anyone answer, what the difference between these two days; is??

Pre Tribbers, would have us believe, these are two different days; separated by 7 years.

Does it appear, according to Paul's writing, that this is a credible point??

1 Th 4
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The coming of the Lord occurs on a certain day (vs 4:15), according to Paul it is the day of the Lord (vs 5:2)

They use the rest of 1 Th 5, to shore up the pre trib rapture teaching up, note;

that Paul is speaking to the same audience, using language whioch includes them in the following verses;

3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Is this true or not true??

Notice what Luke says, when quoting Peter on the day of pentecost, about, the day of the Lord at Acts 2: 14-36.

Pre Tribbers have a theory built of all sorts of speculation, while we see, God simply speaking straight forthly, and accomplishing everything that is written which has been foretold by the power of His Word thru His Spirit.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.  Isa 55:11

Gods word is clear how he accomplishes His Will, by His Spirit.

God has said it, and it will be accomplished, there will be no secret, anything, Jesus will continue serving at the altar not made with human hands in the heavenlies Heb 8:1-2, until the fullness of the gentile be come in. Rom 11:25-26.

His coming is not eminent, because this fullness of the gentiles among other prophesies must occur before that Day comes..


Blessings,

Petro
11  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 27, 2004, 11:17:27 AM
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
In your patience possess ye your souls.
 (Lk 21:7-19)


Jesus told His Apostles;  there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Yet the scriptures tell us, they all died for their faith in Jesus and the testimony of His Word.

There seems to be many Christians today that want the best of both worlds, to be saved, and be kept from tribulation, I wouldn't be so quick to teach, the pack and an leave doctrine.

Rather, Watch and Wait.................In your patience possess ye your souls.

There is nothing hidden, Jesus has told us all we need to know, the rest is by FAITH, which shall be turned to sight in that day.

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.  Lk 18:42



Blessings,

Petro
12  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 27, 2004, 04:04:54 AM
Petro, my brother.

I have been reading through some of the Rapture threads to see if maybe I had it wrong. I'm not interested in being "right" even if I'm not, I just want the truth, after-all it's not us who spreads the Word, It's God, so we get no creadit for understanding or not...right?

 I do have a question for you though, that you haven't answered yet...

 how and when does the Wrath of God found in the 7 vials take effect on the earth?

 Thanks my friend...

Bronzesnake



bronzesanke,

Now that I will agree with;

One must believe Jesus, ..........and quit speculating, it seems some would rather speculate..

I will answer your question, I wish you guys would answer questions posed to you at least once is a while, and quit skirting them.

I want to know, from you and the others, what makes the NT Saints, who were saved post resurrection, different,from the great tribulation Saints.  

In your theory which is less than 200 years old, you separate these, ones from the other, the  tribulation Saints, are NOT, [according to the pre tribulation rapture theorists] members of the church.

Yet clearly they will be resurrected and reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Rev 20:4-6)

I have been asking this question from the begining to get some to think,.....things through, especially, what their [pre trib rapture]..... theory teaches...

I happen to believe expositors who teach that the 7 trumpets are in the 7th seal, and the 7 vials, in the 7th trumpet.

The Bowels and Vials are the same judgements.

I am not interested in comparing theories, I am interested in having people consider what the scriptures teach, it seems you guys are interested in  comparing theories, in order to keep from reading and studying scripture.

I want to help you think, things thru..............


But don't look for me to give you the answers, the key to all this is found in Daniel's prohecy.

Dan 12
8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Something significant occurs at 1290 days.....if its the 1260th day, then clearly something could have happened at the begining of the these days.   Huhhh??


You guys are stuck on 1260 days, but there is 75 days unaccounted for, and thats where fireworks are.

I clearly see, the all Saints who belong to Jesus as HIS Church, and it is clear, they will ALL be resurrected at the last day, just as He said, not one Saint will be missing.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The mistake pre tribbers make is they start their dispensation before the appointed time, so that in their minds, everything that occurs during the tribulation before the Lords return is in another time zone [dispensation] this is why they cannot see,  the last day of this age, they just simply assume.... it is off at the end of another dispensation.

I agree that those saved during the millenial reign of Jesus, are not members of the church, since during this period the Mosaic Laws will be re instituted and observed.


I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:25-26

Note:

1 Th 3
9  For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;
10  Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
11  Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
12  And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Now please answer my question........



Thank You,

Blessings..........

Petro
13  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 22, 2004, 12:56:00 AM
Hello Petro.

You must know there are two different trumps. One being blown by God and the other blown by angels. The last trump...look in your bible and find the place where God blows the trump for the last time.

 As far as your question about

Quote
"I don't believe anyone can discuss anything about any Rapture, unless they define who these Called, Chosen, Elect Saints are"


 You seem to believe that you set the standard as to who understands the scriptures. I could answer your question, but I will not submit to your false belief that by doing so you would somehow prove that you are correct and I am incorrect.
The answer to the question is obvious.

Take care my brother, and may God richly heap blessing upon blessing on you...

Bronzesnake.

bronzesanke,

Thats what I thought.....you have no answers.

Blessings,

Petro
14  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 21, 2004, 08:54:32 PM
Quote
posted by bronzesanke at reply #11

The Premillennial Kingdom of God as
Taught by Joseph Mede, The Key of the Revelation, 1627



Geeeshh............this must be news to you...

Your article entiled,

"The Premillenial Kingdom of God ......"  doesn’t even shore up your pre trib theory, it simply  proves my point about pre tribbers, not being familiar with the biblical teaching of the subject.

Pre Millennial is not Pre Trib and never was.

Mid Trib and Pre Wrath are Pre Mill.............so whats your point??

The early church fathers taught a Pre Millennial Rapture, and always in the context of Jesus Second Coming and in the light of Gods Wrath, being poured out at His Coming.

The seventieth week of Dan. 9 was seen as future and close up to the Second Coming by the earliest church fathers who wrote in detail on prophecy. Montgomery (ICC on Daniel, p. 394) notes that this “apocalyptic” reading of the last period of seven years is the one found in the gospels, and it is adopted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

Commodianus refers to a future and final antichrist in these words:

“Isaiah said, ‘this is the man who moves the world and so many kings and under whom the land will become a desert’… Then, doubtless the world will be finished when he appears. He himself will divide the globe into three ruling powers, when however, Nero will be raised up from hell, Elijah will first come to seal the beloved ones; at which things the region of Africa [King of the South?] and the northern nations [King of the North?], the whole earth on all sides will tremble for seven years. But Elijah will occupy half of the time and Nero the other half. Then the whore Babylon, being reduced to ashes, its embers will then advance to Jerusalem; and the Latin conqueror will then say,”

‘I am Christ whom you always pray to.’

“And indeed the original ones who were deceived combine to praise him. He does many wonders since he is the false prophet. Especially that they may believe him his image will speak. The Almighty has given it power to appear such. The Jews, recapitulating Scriptures from him, exclaim at the same time to the Highest that they have been deceived…Moreover, when the tyrant will dash himself against the army of God, his soldiery are overthrown by the celestial terror; the false prophet himself is seized with the wicked one, by the decree of the Lord. They are handed over alive to Gehenna” (The Instructions of Commodianus, chs. 41, 42).

Paul at 1 Cor 15:15-23, knows nothing of a secret pre trib appearing of Jesus to rapture the church, he writes;

15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


In order to understand verse 23 in the lite of verse 20, one must understand the OT teaching of the Feast of Harvests, the firstfruits Ex 23 and Lev 23.

According to verse 20  ......Jesus is become the firstfruits of them that slept,  

Who are these being spoken of "of them that slept"??

Don't get confused and say, that the firstfruits is the church, clearly verse 20, puts this matter to rest, "Jesus has become the firstfruits" , this does not include any other, but Christ himself.

Now look at the order of their resurrection preceding those who are alive at His Second Coming; Paul continues even revealing the mystery, for you;

51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

He even tells you, it will occur at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

It can't be made mo plain than that.

What about the Called, Chosen, Elect Saints ??



Petro  



15  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 21, 2004, 08:21:06 PM
Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture."



bronzesanke,

The Post Tribulation rapture position is not the same  as Pre Wrath rapture position, don't confuse them.

This is the same mistake, pre tirbbers HAVE MADE ON THIS FORUM.

I use the the name "Pre Wrath" to bolster the Pre Millennial teaching subscribed to by the early church fathers, and for a the lack of a better word;  Pre Wrath describes it perfectly since it is Pre Mill.

It is not Mid Trib, since it is after the 1260 days subscribed to by Mid Tribbers, and it is not Post Trib because Post trib clearly is defined as "after the End of the Tribulation".

Your article does nothing to bolster your position, in fact it doesn't even apply, I fail to see, what your point is.

Petro


PS,  I also made it clear, what I am speaking of, is not the modern day version espoused by Rosenthal, a new teaching presented in the last 10 years or so.

And to confuse you further, let me reiterate what I stated earlier; and that is that the Mid Trib position is closer to the Pre Wrath, the the Pre Trib theory.


P.
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