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31  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Authority is Ours!! on: December 09, 2003, 04:40:53 AM
QUOTE 3wells:

Do either of you really think that "having a form of godliness, but denying its power" has anything to do with people denying God's power? Who on earth having "a form of godliness" would say "God has no power"? Think about it!

Who is denying the Power of God?
When I read your posts I feel like I am back in Sunday School.

Grace & Peace

Brother Love Smiley

You are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that you are denying the fact that God has power. What idiot would say otherwise?

The verse we were discussing is this:

"having a form of godliness, but denying its power"

If this verse has refering to God's power alone it would hardly make sense. It speaks about the power of godliness - that is, given to man in response to faith. The Bible prophesies that this power would be denied in the last days.
32  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Spiritual Gifts on: December 09, 2003, 04:29:33 AM
Quote



The manifestation described in Acts 2 does not operate in the same way as described in the doctrine of tongues, written by Paul decades later. Acts 2 was a fulfillment of Joel 2:28 which describes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Fulfillment?Huh

Did the sun turn Black? Did the Moon turn has blood? Did the Tribulation Start?

The Answer is..

Brother Love Smiley

OK Brother Love, point taken. Maybe "fulfillment" was the wrong word, but the reference is there in Acts - I didn't put it there, I promise!  Wink
33  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Spiritual Gifts on: December 09, 2003, 04:09:55 AM
Quote
(1) "Tongues" in Scripture is the word often used as a translation for "languages" (Greek glossai and dialektos are both words for "language"). So when the apostles, who were Galileans and normally spoke Aramaic, began to proclaim "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11), the Holy Spirit listed the variety of languages in verses 9-11, and as you can see there are about 16 different languages which were spoken supernaturally on the day of Pentencost.

What word the author used tells us nothing. What other word would he possibly use?

The manifestation described in Acts 2 does not operate in the same way as described in the doctrine of tongues, written by Paul decades later. Acts 2 was a fulfillment of Joel 2:28 which describes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of tongues in 1 Cor is based on a different prophecy - Isaiah 28:11 - a prophecy concerning "foreign lips and strange tongues". The tongues spoken in Acts were not spoken with "foreign lips" but by Jews.

Consider the striking differences between the two:

Acts: Understood by men. No need of an interpreter
1Cor: Not understood by men. Interpreter needed

Acts: Spoken by Jews. Refers to Joel
1Cor: Spoken by Gentiles. Refers to Isaiah

Acts: Public manifest. No concern for what people think
1Cor: Church gathering. Concern for what people think

Acts: No rules for how this gift operates
1Cor: Provides rules for how the gift should be used

The only way to arrive at the conclusion that the tongues in 1 Cor were foriegn languages is by turning an historical account into doctrine and then make that doctrine override clear doctrine written by Paul years later, at a time when the church was no longer a relatively unorganized group of people standing in the open streets.

Quote
(2) The gift of speaking foreign lanuages supernaturally was not given to absolutely every believer as an evidence of "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" (modern Pentecostal teaching) but was given as a gift to those who were chosen to receive this gift ("Do all speak with tongues?" Rhetorically asked by Paul in 1 Cor. 12:30.  The obvious answer is "No").

Agreed.

Quote
(3) Tongues was "the least" of the spiritual gifts -- First [in importance and order of listing] apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then miracle workers, then healers, helpers, rulers, and finally "diversities of tongues", followed by interpreters (1 Cor. 12:28-31).  Love [agape] was and is God's greatest gift, since it is God Himself (for God is love) [1 Cor. 13:13].

Agreed.

Quote
(4) Paul would rather have spoken 5 intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 unintelligible words in a foreign language [even though supernaturally given] (1 Cor. 14:19).

It is often argued by tongue-opposers that the word "unknown" does not appear in the original text. Just as the word "unknown" does not appear there, neither does "foreign language", so why add something that is not there? At least "unknown" does not contradict scripture. "Foreign language" does:

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit."

This verse also proves that tongues could not have been used to preach the gospel as some seem to believe.

Quote
(5) Tongues [languages, not babbling in glossolalia] as a gift would CEASE, as would prophecies and supernatural knowledge (1 Cor. 13:8-9). When could they cease?  When that which was in part [partially written down revelations which ultimately became the New Testament] became "perfect' [or complete] at the end of the apostolic age.  The apostle John wrote the last book of the New Testament and sealed up supernatural revelations at the end of this book (Rev.22:18-19).  When the New Testament was completed around 90 A.D. Paul's prophecy regarding tongues, prophecies, and supernatural knoweldge became a reality.

That is an extra-biblical theory. There is nothing in the scripture that indicates any "completion" or "perfection" of scripture. In fact, the scriptures have never been imperfect. The only perfection that scripture indicates as something occuring in the future is the perfection of the saints.

Since God encourages us to establish truth on the basis of two or three testimonies then you would expect that anything of importance to be scripturally verifiable. Cessationist theories are not. They don't pass the test.

Quote
(6) The earliest church leaders after the apostles [Apostolic Fathers] confirmed this by making a clear and deliberate distinction between their writings [which resemble Scripture to a remarkable degree] and the writings of the apostles.  The apostles themselves acknowledged each other's writings as "Scripture" [Divine revelation] (see 2 Pet. 3:15-17). [Also, none of them mentions tongue-speaking in the post-apostolic chruches].

A complete Bible precludes further Divine revelations, while the end of the apostolic age precludes tongues.

The bible does not preclude any such thing. Prophecies external to scripture existed both then and now. Check it out. Even the book of revelations, which you use to prove that all gifts of prophecy and revelation would cease (which by the way is not what that verse says), teaches us that this is not so. The book of Revelations proves that prophecy is still in effect after the book was written. Check that out too.

Also, if Revelations 22:18-19 means that God has stopped speaking then what do you make of Proverbs 30:5-6?

Quote
Today's tongues bear no resemblance to those of Scripture,

Wrong.

Quote
Note carefully that today's "glossolalia" [babbling in a human "pre-language akin to a baby's] is admitted to be different from "glossai" -- speaking a foreign language fluently and supernaturally without having learned it.

That's because they are different. The tongues Paul speaks about in 1 Cor are not "speaking a foreign language fluently". Scripture show us this very clearly.

Quote
Linguistic research into modern tongue-speaking has established this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

So "linguistic research" is what helps you to interpret scripture?

Evaluating truth based on human research is almost as deceptive as basing it on "post-apostolic churches".

Why is it that the same people who dogmatically proclaim that scripture is complete are the first to lean on extra-biblical arguments to prove their points?

Quote
True spirituality is not evidenced by "tongue-speaking" but by the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  Tongues are not among the gifts listed in Eph. 4:11 or Rom. 12:4-8  or 1 Pet. 4:10-11, since they were not designed for the edification of the saints but were meant to be a "sign' to unbelieving Jews (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

The word "Jews" does not appear in the text. It is missing for a very good reason. Jews are not the only unbelievers on this planet, and Corinth is a very strange place to have a sign to the Jews, don't you think?

Quote
No spiritual gift was given for self-edification (1 Cor. 14:4-5) which Paul rebukes soundly, but for the edification of the whole Body of Christ. Yet tongue-speakers talk about edifying themselves, as though God really approves of this.

Paul does not "rebuke" self-edification. Why would he rebuke something that scripture encourages:

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit."

What he did do was correct a misuse of the gift because the Corinthians were not being mutually edified. Does this problem exist today? No. Today we have a totally different scenario. I have never attended a service and gone home unedified. I'll leave it to you to guess why.
34  Theology / Apologetics / Re:The Authority is God's! on: December 08, 2003, 03:25:39 PM
3Wells,

There is no alteration of Scripture. It's really a very simple matter of who the Scripture is directed to, for what purpose, and for what time.

There is no denial of the awesome might and power of Almighty God. There is a denial that men have HIS power.

There is no denial that Almighty God has complete Authority over all. There is a denial that man commands this authority.

I can only assume by your last post that you have faith greater than a mustard seed. Just the plain and simple truth, you can't move a paper clip either.

There are many today who still look for the miracles, signs, and wonders as a prerequisite for faith. There are others who claim to perform those miracles, signs, and wonders in the name of Almighty God. They are frauds and deceivers - the truth is not in them. Almighty God performs HIS WILL at HIS pleasure and HIS time, not at the command of men of today.

There was a time some 2,000 years ago that God allowed chosen vessels to perform great works in HIS NAME. Almighty God had a purpose and time for allowing this, and that purpose and time has passed.

Almighty God has the Authority, not man.

In Christ,
Tom  

Thats how I believe, AMEN Brother

Brother Love Smiley

So you also believe this:

"There is no denial of the awesome might and power of Almighty God.
There is a denial that men have HIS power.
...
Almighty God has the Authority, not man."

Despite the fact that the Bible clearly says this:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Rom 13:1)

Even Pontius Pilate received his authority from God - according to Jesus! So who are you to say otherwise?

Do either of you really think that "having a form of godliness, but denying its power" has anything to do with people denying God's power? Who on earth having "a form of godliness" would say "God has no power"? Think about it!

Although it sounds religiously correct to say "God has AWESOME power" I don't think it has anything to do with what that scripture is talking about. Only an athiest would disagree with that statment!
35  Theology / General Theology / Re:Who Is Your Apostle? on: December 08, 2003, 01:18:17 PM
I have removed my previous post, in answer to ollies post #57, since I saw a major problem, that when considered more carefully in the lite of the passage of 1 Cor 15:5-9, my post was merely reduced to an opinion, which is error.

I had always viewed 1 Cor 15:5, as the eleven counting Matthias tom fill out the twelve.

But as I lay in bed last night prior to dozing off, meditating on the events of the day, and going over the scriptures which excited me, I realize, that verse 5, could not have included Matthias, because the matter of replacing Judas had not even been considered as of yet, and clearly Paul at verse 5 is speaking of the chronology of the Lord's appearance to the disciples after his resurrection, ending with verse 8.

I am presently considering the passage carefully, and see that I need to reconcile scripture with scripture concerning this matter.

Perhaps a thread inviting the sharing of scriptures on who the twelth apostle in 1 Cor 15:5 is, would help clarify this matter.

If it not Matthias, it could only be Judas..

Any comments??


Hi Petro,

I have seen this question posed somewhere else, I think with the suggestion that Jesus appeared to Judas some time before Judas took his life... don't know if I'm crazy about that idea.

Another possibility I suppose could be that "The Twelve" was used more in the sense of a title than a count of those present. For example, the members of the Swedish Acadamy (you know, the mob that gives out the Nobel prize), are called "The Eighteen". This title remains the same even when one of the members is missing, kicks the bucket, or whatever...

In the NIV the word "twelve" in this verse is capitalized, although there is no footnote explaining why.

36  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Spiritual Gifts on: December 08, 2003, 07:31:24 AM
Quote
I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

The O-N-L-Y Gift you have is E-T-E-R-N-A-L Life and thats only if your a believer.

Now believe that player.

Brother Love Smiley

You want me to believe something that contradicts scripture?

Noooo thank you!

This I believe:

"He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
(Eph 4:8-14)

"For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom 11:29)

"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." (1 John 5:10)

37  Theology / Apologetics / Re:The Authority is God's! on: December 06, 2003, 01:02:29 PM
3Wells,

There is no alteration of Scripture. It's really a very simple matter of who the Scripture is directed to, for what purpose, and for what time.

There is no denial of the awesome might and power of Almighty God. There is a denial that men have HIS power.

There is no denial that Almighty God has complete Authority over all. There is a denial that man commands this authority.

I can only assume by your last post that you have faith greater than a mustard seed. Just the plain and simple truth, you can't move a paper clip either.

There are many today who still look for the miracles, signs, and wonders as a prerequisite for faith. There are others who claim to perform those miracles, signs, and wonders in the name of Almighty God. They are frauds and deceivers - the truth is not in them. Almighty God performs HIS WILL at HIS pleasure and HIS time, not at the command of men of today.

There was a time some 2,000 years ago that God allowed chosen vessels to perform great works in HIS NAME. Almighty God had a purpose and time for allowing this, and that purpose and time has passed.

Almighty God has the Authority, not man.

In Christ,
Tom  

Tom,

You can assume about me whatever you want and make dogmatic claims about who and for how long the words of the Bible apply. That does not make it true. Let the reader take note of the fact that in neither of these cases do you supply any evidence, in the form of scripture or otherwise. You think Jesus words were only meant for a certain time. Good for you! But once again I choose to believe Him rather than you:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"

For the record: I don't need to move a paperclip to prove that what Jesus said is true. I believe it - without any prerequisites!
38  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Authority is Ours!! on: December 06, 2003, 10:10:28 AM
Blackeyedpeas:

"You can't do it, regardless of how strong your faith is."

Jesus:

"I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

So who is telling the truth? You or Jesus? It's not Jabez you are fighting against. It is the truth.

You guys amaze me! You praise the Word of God, nominate your favorite apostle, and then turn around and contradict both! Amening each other because you subscribe to the same denominational dogma. Having a form of godliness, but denying its power. That is one sure way of determining which "time" we are living in.

What Jesus said is not the truth simply because you or I see mountains being moved or people raised from the dead. Not seeing these things happening does not justify altering scripture to suit your view of reality. It's the truth because the Word tells us so!
39  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Authority is Ours!! on: December 06, 2003, 03:44:06 AM
Blackeyedpeas,

You would expect that the moderator of a forum such as ChristiansUnite to understand that the only thing we can possible unite around is the Word of God. You are entitled to you opinion of course, but somehow I think that denominational propaganda that cannot be scripturally verified is not very fitting for the role you have and does not set a good example for others to follow.

Everything should be established by the testimony of two or three. Cessationism has nothing. It is a human theory and fails the test of scriptural verification. That alone is enough to classify it as a false doctrine.
40  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Spiritual Gifts on: December 05, 2003, 11:16:46 AM
Quote
I dont ignore the Word.

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!
41  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Spiritual Gifts on: December 05, 2003, 10:18:42 AM
It's the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God, that is, "THE BIBLE" that teaches us that we do have spiritual gifts.

What's the point of having a C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Bible if you just ignore what it says?

42  Theology / General Theology / Re:Who Is Your Apostle? on: December 04, 2003, 01:13:20 PM
Quote
There are 2 choices. Peter and the 11 or Paul.

There are not 2 choices. The Jews did not choose Peter, the gentiles did not choose Paul, and we are not encouraged anywhere in scripture to choose, so why add something that is not written?
43  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Tongues on: November 30, 2003, 08:45:01 AM
Tibby,

I'm not defending Petro, and neither do I have any wish to offend you, but I find the things you are saying here somewhat hypocritical. You feel qualified to make comments about what kind of attitude charasmatics have and don't blink before making judgmental statements about them, and yet you get offended when your own denomination comes under fire. Forget Petro. Forget charasmatics. Work on your own attitude instead and maybe then you will be fit to identify the splinters in other denominations eyes.

44  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Tongues on: November 29, 2003, 08:27:19 AM
Not to worry, I won't be holding my breath until that day dawns.

But I did kind of expect someone to make a decent effort. All I have seen so far is people taking the opportunity to air their own opinions, and making judgmental remarks about how other people behave while worshipping God... same old, same old...
45  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Tongues on: November 29, 2003, 03:32:43 AM
I'm still waiting for the scriptures that prove that tongues are not for today...
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