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286485 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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61  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Why doesn't God show himself? on: May 26, 2003, 11:59:12 AM

You are not far from coming to know God if you have invested so much energy and time into having it proven to you.

The hard part of it all, is that to know God we have to lay down our own rebellious pride. We, as humans do not so easily do that.  I went to church, I would have even told you I was a Christian, although I hardly was.  I lived for me, and was essentially my own little god. It is times when the weight of the consequences of our own choices brings us to our knees, that we cry out to God.  Sometimes, even after God intervenes on our behalf during those times of crisis, we then take on our own godliness again, not really giving up  our own miserable ways for God's. But for those of us who truly desire to follow Him, He reaches out and brings us to Him, and we belong.  It is only then that our eyes and ears are opened to His truth.  It is about desire.  When your desire is to leave the life you now have, that is when your answers will come.
62  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 26, 2003, 11:07:28 AM
Jason, I am intrigued by your response. That you have "gone through this topic a billion times"  yet you continue to partake in this very subject over and over again that appears to aggitate you if someone holds a different view point than yourself using Scripture as basis for their interpretation also.

If you are knowledgable in regard to the Bible, which I am sure you are, you would then know that the Greek language is not always so easy to translate into another language, as is the case broken and tibby seem to be focusing on.  

The translators can stick to the words that translate directly across to the new language, or may opt to translate the idea into the other language, making the sentance understandable.

The Scriptures we read are not exactly like the original documents. Instead they have been marked into verses, paragraphs, sentances were ended and started--the translators did such things to make the Bible more understandable to the reader they were attempting to reach, while still conveying the essence and meaning of the original documents.

Just as you believe that these verses are "clear" in regard to limiting women from leadership  or maybe even teaching with disregard for other passages that give clear indication that regard women as not only free to assume leadership but called to do so, should at the very least give pause to your stance.  Remember the Pharisees took the letter of the law and disregarded the intention or meaning that it was to convey.  You can do the same with Scipture if you only see the words and do not understand the message that writer was intending for that particular time.
63  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 25, 2003, 01:59:49 PM
There are a few things to keep in mind when looking at this passage.

1Timothy2:11-12 seems to be a general prohibition on teaching and authority exercised by women. It is not directed to only a certain level of persons : "ordained vs non-ordained", "pastors vs missionaries"; nor is it limited to only a certain style of teaching "preaching vs sharing", "seminary teaching vs writing theological books." In other words, if this were a trans-cultural absolute prohibition on women teaching and exercising authority in the church, then it prohibits all such activity. 1-2 Timothy shows the heretical activity combatted with a deviant approach to sexuality in 1Tim 4:3, 5:11-15; a particular focus on deluding women who were generally uneducated as in 2Tim 3:6-7.

In the first epistle to Timothy, Paul alternated his concern for Timothy and his concern for this church. Paul poured out his concern for the church of Ephesus in 1Tim 2:1-1Tim 4:5.
The overall picture shows us God wants to save everyone. The particular examples are what  God wants to do with men and women. Within the last example, women, Paul begins by talking about women in general, then switched to a particular woman, then switched back to women in general.

Paul did not use aner, the Greek word for men throughout the first seven verses of 1Timothy 2. Instead he used anthropos, the Greek word best translated as "person"  or "human". He continued using anthropos: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the (person) Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all (humans).."

As Paul speaks to women regarding their responsibilities in the church, He began by saying "Likewise, I want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to  worship God."  The NIV begins this verse with "I also," however, it would communicate Paul's intent more clearly if also were translated "likewise" or "in some other way". This word in the Greek is like a literary equal sign. Paul deliberately chose this word to highlight the similarities, not the differences of men's and women's roles in the church. Though the text does not specifically exhort women to pray, it implied by the way Paul chose to begin this sentance. Paul wanted everyone to pray-- both men and women in a godly manner.  Chrysostom was an early church commentator and he understood this and even added the words "to pray" to this verse to complete its meaning.

The church of Ephesus is where Priscilla was a founding leader and she spent much time along with her husband, teaching and correcting Apollos, discipling him for leadership.
64  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 24, 2003, 09:11:46 AM
Actually Tibby, I was not really in disagreement with Broken at all.....The Greek word authentein was a term that equated to unsurping of authority.....this word has such a negative connotation in the Greek language that it carries the concept of sovereign domination.  Paul was dealing with a woman who was spreading false doctrine.
65  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 22, 2003, 10:46:29 PM
1 Timothy 2:12; "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man.."(NIV)

The meaning of the Greek word translated "to have authority" or "authentein" occurs only here in the NT and was rarely used in the Greek language.  It is not the usual word for positive, active authority, but rather it is instead a negative term which refers to the unsurping or abuse of authority. Thus, the prohibition is against some abusive activity.
66  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 21, 2003, 07:21:52 PM
Tibby, yes women have and will continue to be leaders within the church. There were two spiritual ministries present in the OT-that of priest and prophet.  

Deborah, both prophet and judge over Israel for 40 yrs--that word used for judge is "shaphat"--to govern. God raised up Deborah to govern.  Miriam in Micah 6:4 was called a leader--by God. Huldah was a female prophet and contemporary with Jeremiah, and Zephaniah.

Junias -a woman apostle.  Phoebe, called a "prostatis" which is one who governs (romans 16:2) These are a few of the women God called to leadership.

God called these women despite the great cultural and traditional conditions of the times.

Your claim against the sbc is your opinion, however you missed the point of my message.

I am very interested in your Sciptural basis for this shared ministry power of husband and wife, but not single women....?

Scripture indicates that leadership of the Church is vested in Elders who walk in the anointing of the five fold ministries: apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists. These are the "people" gifts to the body of Christ for its equipping. Scripture does not indicate a distinction between men and women in leadership  positions within the church. The distinctive qualifications for leadership are character based, rather than gender based.

the woman does always have pain with childbirth, (or afterwards): the Scripture says "I will greatly increase you pains in childbearing"....with pain you will give birth to children. Some women do not have children at all.  Men do not toil the earth  by the sweat of their brow much of the time. However, this was the reality of life in the ancient world before Christ came begin the restoration process of equality.
Just as no person should be ordained or given responsibilites of ministry within the church because of sex, or for the sake of a "point"; no person, called and gifted by God, should be denied any role of ministry or leadership in the church because of one's sex.

Tibby, the NT verses in accordance with wives to submit to their husbands....wives should submit to their husbands, and husbands to their wives. That is what the verses pose.  Whatever submitting a wife is to do, the husband is to reciprocate as a Christian. It is God who is to be leader of each marriage, each home, each heart.  It isnt about a hierarchy, but about mutuality, love and equality in Christ. It is a matter of unity other rather than authority. The self-giving servanthood that Jesus emulated.
67  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 20, 2003, 06:20:56 PM
Historically, women have been called by God to leadership. It is also shown within the pages of Scripture. Tradition and culture have been instead the force behind the suffice that women are somehow not "equipped" for leadership due to their "God ordained role".

I do not agree that it is out of propaganda from such organizations as NOW and other secular movements, but instead, from intelligent biblical scholars and Christians who have in their quest, come to the realization that God has gifted both men as well as women for leadership, ministry, and service to bring the Gospel message to others.  There are many many Christians who do not hold your point of view tibby.  The SBC was divided with some states withdrawing from the convention due to their infamous revision to their Baptist Faith and Message in regard to this very issue.  The Willow Creek Church which creates Christian materials used throughout the world hold to women in all levels as called by God.  

In Genesis, God's creation design was male/female equality. Genesis 1:26-27 show man and woman share the same nature the same image of God. Both are commissioned to rule the earth. They share in essence and equality of role. Just as a piece of paper, by its nature has two sides, so humanity, by its created nature has two sexes. Neither the male nor female alone, but the two of them together as "one flesh" constitute and complete what it means generically to be human. "God created man in his own image" creating "male and female" concurrently. Gender differentiation was inherent in God's design for humanity from the onset. That essential partnership of male and female was shattered by the impulse of the two genders to achieve their destiny separately.

Genesis 3:16 were the consequences of sin, not divine ordinances decreed for all time. These are evils which are contrary to the ideal of human nature and to the intention of a good God. The terms of the "sentance" described conditions as they actually existed in the ancient world for both men and women.
68  Theology / Apologetics / Re:"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing? on: May 20, 2003, 02:19:02 PM
amen asaph. We are now a priesthood of believers in which there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. These 3 traditional pairings are in reflection of the social divisions of hostility of this time within the Roman Empire. Paul was affirming the biblical basis for full participation of women in ministries of the church. The biblical theology of  a "new creation in Christ" in which "neither male nor female" of who are equally committd to the Gospel, the Church and all the ministries, using our Spiritual giftedness to lift up the body of believers in the fullness of Christ, without exclusion.
69  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Are all religions basically the same? on: April 21, 2003, 08:59:18 PM
Good answers and posts from sower, ambassador as well as John.....

Mine will be a bit simplistic but in agreement.  God tells us there can be but only one true God. That is the God of Abraham. This same God took on flesh and became man so that all could live eternal with Him.  We dont have to work our way to heaven, "our God" reached down with outstretched arms to gather us to Him. All we must do is accept and believe Him.
God gave us His Word which reveals His love and very nature to us.  It tells of His plan for mankind from beginning to end.  It is all truth and all in harmony despite being written over 1600 yrs by over 40 authors in 3 languages.  That is because God breathed the very words for us. Through the Holy Spirit God lives within each of those who believe on Him, and through this Spirit our ears, eyes and hearts become open to God's message of truth.  We are freed and empowered by God and live for God. It is quite a journey.
70  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 12, 2003, 05:41:19 PM
I take great comfort that my salvation is assured and to know that I am an heir to the kingdom, sealed by the Holy Spirit.  "Signed, sealed, delivered....I'm His!"
71  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 12, 2003, 07:24:54 AM
Amen Pilgrim
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