Nice story atheist. What a challenge to take an "older" child on alone, but from another country !  It sounds like you did a great job with him.  

Petro-

I will once again ask that if you wish to dialogue on this issue, then I will continue, but if you are unable to refrain from making your sarcastic and pointedly diminishing remarks in another person's view to somehow uplift your own, then I will not participate with you.  Again, it not only diminishes the discussion, but truly says something about your own character as a christian and a person.Somehow you think that by name calling and remarks you can gain credibility.  While you may think this is acceptable, I do not. I can also use your very same argument toward your view.

Others were not indicated outright as apostles, such as Timothy, but was clearly a minister of the gospel and leader, as Paul states Phoebe was as well.

Phoebe was given the title prostatis, which is the only person described as this within the NT. You are diminishing the significance of this word.  This is no far cry from what I stated before, and my post does not indicate any variance from my others. You are reading into something that just isnt there. You may want to reread my post.  Actually, Servant/leader comes closer than helper because it describes a leader who champions for the cause of others. This is the connotation of this word, prostatis. Paul was giving her great honor.

Phoebe was a minister of the Gospel  who served the church in a public way. In the same manner as Paul in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"


Phoebe was also called a prostatis, translated in the NRSV as benefactor.  The word comes from the verb proistemi:to stand in front; Someone who stands in front of a group of people may be facing them, and therefore speaking to them;giving leadership and instruction. You can see where the translation benefactor comes from.  But prostatis goes further for it could also be translated champion,leader, or ruler.  It is the same verb which describes the activities of elders who rule well in 1 Timothy 5:17, elders who labor in preaching and teaching.

Petro-

I have not wandered anywhere. The word diakonos is used 21 times in Paul's letters. It is translated as deacon 3 times, minister 3 times, servant 14 times and as promote once.

Paul referred to 14 individuals with the term diakonos or one of its cognate words. Achaicus, Apollos, Archippus, Epaphras, Fortunatus, Mark, Onesimus, Onesphorus, Philemon, Timothy, Titus, And Tychicus. The 13th person is Stephana/Stephanas in which whose name could be man or woman.

No sincere, I havent shunned away from Scripture. If you read over my prior posts, I have used Scriptural support for my position.

Petro-

Paul called Phoebe a diakonos. You agree this renders to minister or deacon.  There was no feminine form of diakonos in the NT or any church literature until about 300 yrs later. Both men and women were called deacons.

While servant is not an incorrect translation of the word diakonos, it might be better to translate it as "deacon" or "minister," as it is done in the other NT passages.

We have come to define deacon as something different than full-time minister. A deacon is a layperson serving on a board with others, helping the pastor run the business of the church. However, no such distinction applied in the NT.

Paul regularly used this term to refer to persons he clearly understood to be ministers of the Gospel: Christ, Apollos, Epaphras, Timothy, Tychicus, as well as himself.

Paul goes on to refer to Phoebe as a prostatis. This Greek word appears only this one time in the NT. Most translators render this word as "helper", however, that does not give it the full meaning it held in the Greek language.  In fact, we have no equivalent word in our language that is strong enough to give it true meaning. In other ancient literature, this word was used for Emperors, kings, governors, nobles, patriarchs, captains, and other authoritive officials.  Only one person was so described in the NT and that was Phoebe.

You are correct that Phoebe was a deacon. There was no distinction  between minister and deacon existing in the New Testament.

I am not sure how Proverbs 31 supports women not to be in ministry.....

 I am not sure what point you are attempting to make here petro in accordance to 1Cor14:38

I am not sure also in regard to women working at home being easier has to do with anything either. Serving the Lord as called isnt about what is easier or harder, but obedience. You also allude to the issue that there shouldnt be any "fuss" since women, in your opinion can share testimony and have influence....(sharing testimony would be in contradiction of 1Cor 14 by the way. If you are taking that as a mandate, then silence is silence).  The "fuss" is about being used as called by the Lord, and that people are not given mandate of authority simply because of gender. It is always a matter of character and of the heart.

Actually Phoebe was considered a minister of the Gospel as well as other women who worked with Paul.

Paul's command was "to those who speak in tongues"--"be silent".
"To the prophets"--"be silent"

"To the women"--"be silent"

It would be dishonest to single out the command to the women and make it an absolute without making the others absolute as well.  It seems that some want to pluck out the third and not see the other two.

In the same passage he writes that we are to be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. The ministry of gifts were not to be silenced but orderly.

The same is true for women. Paul was not seeking to refrain women from public ministry, but place order within the public worship.

The command wasnt pointed just to the women, but to the entire order of conduct and is seen in light of what Paul was saying to this church. The principles continue to be held in worship--there needs to be order within the body to bring glory and edification.  It isnt about roles but conduct....

Babies are in the spiritual state of innocence because they don't know right from wrong.

We become sinners through breaking the Law (1 John 3:4).

Paul said, "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law" (Rom 7:7).

Romans 3:20: "For through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Romans 5:13: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no Law."

"To one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

In 1 Cor 14:26 the word adelphos was used in its plural form-- a gender inclusive nature when used in this fashion. Women did pray and prophesy in public worship. It is also clear that women are given spiritual gifts (including speaking in tongues and prophesy) and were encouraged to use them to build up the body of believers.

In 1Cor 14:27 it better translates "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two...."

In corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public.  Again, Paul is admonishing disruptions within the church, not laying out universal mandates of roles between men and women.

You continue to make accusations and suggestions without any basis about me personally, and women in generality when it doesnt line up to the Bible as Petro believes it to be.

You seem to throw terms and categories out to encapsulate those who are in disagreement, attempting to place them in a derogatory position to elevate your stance. This certainly is not only a poor means to discussion, but says something about the very character of your person.  

If you do not agree with me that is perfectly alright with me, I have invested much time prayer and study into this issue. I have carefully studied divergent views and held them to the light of the Word.

The gifts of ministry including pastorship, leadership, administration are for all members of the body to build up the body of believers. To serve and respond to God's calling.

That is interesting ..there are lots of sermons by lots of preachers that say lots of things.

However, that doesnt make them all right, does it?

Do babies sin? How do we become sinners?

In 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul gives his main idea as since God is a God of order, all should participate in Christian worship in an orderly and edifying way. Paul then proceeds to illustrate this principle by giving examples of what orderly worship should look like.  The examples were those who speak in tongues, those who prophesy, and women of the church.

Paul used these particular examples of those who needed to be corrected and brought back to order, edifying participation.

Paul wasnt prohibiting participation, he wanted all to participate, but in an orderly way. The command to the three different groups are the same. Paul used the exact same word in the Greek to each group. This was a deliberate continuity of thought between verses 28, 30, and 34.

Women were causing division and disruption in church and Paul was correcting this. He had already said he wanted all (men and women) to be ready to contribute with "a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation."  Paul also commanded the people to "speak".  There is no indication that these commands were limited to men. Paul was addressing anyone who spoke to God on behalf of the people by means of tongues or prophecy, in which both men and women participated.

Paul was actually encouraging women to learn. This was a radical break from the culture because women had no formal religious training. Paul was affirming that women should learn by asking their husbands at home, and not creating disruption during worship service. Paul was commanding the husbands to take responsibility to teach their wives. Paul wanted new believers to learn to use their spiritual gifts to build one another up, strengthening the church.
Paul was making chaos taboo.

2Tim 2:2 Paul  told Timothy, "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable persons who will also be qualified to teach others.  The Greek word  anthropos or persons.

I have already discussed 1 Timothy in this thread. You can scan back and read up.

1 Cor 14 The command for women to be silent does not stand alone. Paul had already given this command twice in the same passage. He had told two other groups to be silent who were disrupting service. These commands were given so that the Corinthian worship would reflect the character of godly worship and edify all that was present.

Pauls "be silent" wasnt an absolute injunction

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8–9)

Grace is all that God is free to do for mankind on the basis of the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Faith is a nonmeritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority, veracity, and ability of God to provide salvation. Grace is the gift of salvation; faith is the means. The object of faith, our Lord Jesus Christ, has all the merit. As Jesus Christ hung between heaven and earth, God the Father imputed our sins to Him and judged them.
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross. (1 Pet. 2:24a)
Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin and spiritual death. He became our substitute.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf [as our substitute], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)
Because of the work of Jesus Christ, salvation is available to everyone.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved," (Acts 16:31a)

Can a baby believe? I dont know, can it?
If two people attend church and one is saved and the other isnt, it isnt about who is better. It is about one who hears the Gospel and repents, believing in Jesus. God gives us salvation as a gift. We dont earn it, or deserve it. But we are saved by faith through grace. God calls all of us, but not all will come to know Him as Lord and Savior.

YOU SAID

"To believe is a work. Faith is a work."

However we are justified by faith we are not saved and then attain faith. We believe and are saved. We are not saved and then believe.