I apologize Tom for taking your statements the wrong way. But the general sense I got from your first post was that you didn't want these type of things discussed here, because you feel true believing Christians would not fall to them anyway, and thus there would be no reason to discuss such warnings. I never insinuated that anyone here was following the occult. But I won't try to hide the fact there are false prophets in the world, and in some Christian pulpits deceiving our brethren.

Maybe I'm a bit sensitive on this because that's exactly how I've been treated by many, many other fellow believers on this matter, because they simply believe it won't affect them because they'll be 'raptured' away before it happens. The truth is that working is already here today, and is already affecting many believers in falling away. I've heard the secret rapture idea being used as a crutch too often as a reason for not being concerned about this matter, and many other things our Lord and His Apostles and prophets warned us about for the latter days.

The fact that our Lord Jesus gave that warning to His disciples, and even said the false working would be so great that even the "very elect" might be deceived if it were possible, is a Message that His "very elect" servants will be here on earth to go through it. It was no different in any of the prophet's days, like Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, etc.

Further, I've haven't found anywhere in Scripture that says Jesus will return in secret to rapture out some believers while leaving the rest on earth. My Bible says the great gathering to Christ won't happen until the very last trumpet sounding, which is the 7th trumpet of Revelation, which also is the "last trump" Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15:52, and is the same trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The seven trumpets of Revelation sound in order, because that was how they were used to signal events in prep for battle. Moreover, Rev.1:7 says every eye shall see Him at His coming, even those who pierced Him (meaning His enemies). There will be nothing secret about our Lord Jesus Christ's second coming.

dp

Hello Tom,

This subject has a very strong Biblical warning for the latter days, through Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 where he said two things must occur first before our Lord's second coming. One is that there must be a great falling away (apostasy) from Christ, and the second is the "son of perdition" must be revealed. The Message of "another Jesus" of 2 Corinthians 11 is also linked with that, even as our Lord Jesus' warning about the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24 where He was teaching about a pseudo Christ coming first and that event might deceive the very elect, if it were possible.

Matt 24:21-26
21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22   And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23   Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there;" believe it not.
24   For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25   Behold, I have told you before.
26   Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

The direct translation of the phrase "false Christs" in verse 24 is 'a pseudo Christ'. It is the Greek word pseudochristos, made up of two Greek words, pseudo and Christ. It is singular in the Greek, not plural. That only occurs in two places in God's Word, here and in Mark 13:22 with this same warning by our Lord Jesus. When our Lord Jesus said if they shall say, "Behold, He is in the desert", He was speaking of a specific false one that many will accept as The Christ, but that one will be false, a pseuodchristos. Jesus said for us to not fall to that false one, wrongly thinking it will be Him. The KJV translators even capitalized the "He" there because of the singular tense of that false one, and not in the sense of 'many Christ' wannabes. Jesus gave that in connection with the "abomination of desolation" standing where it ought not, in the Temple. Antiochus Epiphanes around 120 B.C. was the first blueprint of that as a type. And the Romans caused many of the Jews to fall to Baccus worship before general Titus destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and Jerusalem itself, except for the wall that still stands today.

A group of orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are preparing to build a third Temple in our times today, and already have the materials ready to do it. Some Christian organizations have even sent funds to help them build it, and one company run by a Christian leader, named 'Jesus, Inc.' in Tennessee back in 1997 was sending red heifer cows to Jerusalem for their Levitical type sacrifices. Some Christian Churches see no problem in helping with that, because their false leadership is telling them it's alright. But to aid in that is to deny The One Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time, Jesus Christ. Those orthodox Jews intend to bring back the Old Covenant ways and Levitical priesthood; they still do not recognize the New Covenant through our Lord Jesus. They still await Messiah, because they refuse the True Messiah Jesus Christ, so God is going to give them one, a false messiah (pseudochristos). The Roman general Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in 69 A.D. did not fit that role of a pseudochristos. None have done what Antiochus did in the Temple since then, and our Lord gave that prophecy after Antiochus had been long gone, thus meaning that prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" is still yet to be fulfilled. And that will be 'the Antichrist' fulfilling that. There is a group of orthodox Jews called the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful who are the strongest movers in that direction to build another Temple in Jerusalem. They have a website up at...
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

What does all that have to do with occult leadership in today's world? Well, who do they worship instead The Father through Christ Jesus? This is what the inter-faith religious movement is really about today, and it is slowly taking over some of our Christian Churches, because the plan is a one-world religion to include all faiths. That's what the World Council of Churches is all about. The world is being prepared to accept that false one in place of Jesus. Many will believe it is Jesus, when our Lord Jesus specifically said to believe it not there in Matthew 24 and in Mark 13, even giving the warning twice. The warning He gave in verse 24 above is very specific also, because that pseudochristos will work great signs and wonders so powerful that it might even deceive His "very elect", if it were possible. That tells us that false one is not going to be some ordinary limited mortal that can only claim to be Christ and do nothing else but talk sweet and look holy. Those great signs and wonders are a link to the one in Revelation 13:11 forward He also warned us about. As a matter of fact, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is covering the 7 seals of Revelation 6.

So how is it that many believers on The Savior will be dupped into that? It's because many do not understand how Christ's enemies work. In my previous post about false things going on in the lodges of secret fraternities, it's the high leadership in those orders that are connected in that. Most of the lower members don't really have a clue what they're into. How's that? Because they are sold the idea that those orders are benefactors to mankind, the concept of world brotherhood, peace, liberty, equality, etc. The symbols, rituals, etc., most of the lower members don't know their true history. The major concept behind all the secret fraternities is that of world peace, one world government, and peace and prosperity for all. The kind of thing you speak of about 'cults', are mostly independent groups that are way out on a limb, like the group in California that committed suicide back around the year 2000 because they thought the end had come, or like the Jim Jones cults and such. The real dangerous working are those higher ups in the secret societies who don't outwardly exhibit those 'cult' qualities you speak of, but most defnitely work for the devil. And that's part of our Lord's Message in the vision He gave in Ezekiel 8, for those leaders of Israel were doing their own thing behind closed doors, not in full view of the people.

You've got excellent examples in your Bible in Old Testament history of what authentic false occult worship is that is the seat of the beast. All the old systems of Baal worship are interconnected back to Babylon in some way, and before Christ came those systems of idol worship were also established in Europe. The majority in Europe converted to Christ Jesus, but some of the pagan converts were allowed to mix in some of their idol worship into Christianity (research Constantine and the early Church fathers). Even the apostle Paul fought that working early on among Gentile converts to Christ. And then some groups in Europe never did convert to Christ. Those families who didn't convert have been with us in the West all along. And as Christian families have been handing down Christian principles from generation to generation, the same thing has been going on with those families still in the Baal traditions of their forefathers.

So the reality of today is, many Christians are being taught it's OK to join in worship with other religions, and to even accept other faiths as other paths to God. Clearly someone strong in Christ is not going to fall for that. But all Christians, myself included, want peace on earth and for all of God's children to be cared for as fellow human beings. We want all wars to end, and each to have the right to prosperity and happiness. But the question I ask, is on who's terms do we want that? I only want it on Jesus' terms, and we are told in God's Word that is not going to happen without our Lord reiging in Person on earth as KING. That is the main ploy the secret societies are using with their lower membership, because they think they themselves are empowered to create that kind of condition here on earth in the now, without Christ being here in Person. And that's why there are even Christians involved in those secret societies, and why some Church traditions falsely teach that Jesus is already reiging on earth, or that He will never physically reign here on earth in Person! I was told by a Mason that at one time a petitioning member of a lodge in the West used to have be a Christian to join. What better way to single out those one intends to corrupt?

On the idea of the Global Church working, here's an interesting link, and it's by one of our fellow-believers on Christ Jesus:
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/globalchurch.htm

Furthermore, if you or Roger want me to leave this Forum because I warn about these things, I have no problem with leaving. But I will not bow down to only talking sweetness preaching, soothing words that are only designed to make one feel good but at same time hide much God's Truth for our times.

dp

Bronzesnake,

I highly, very highly recommend you contact your Pastor or someone within The Church that's familiar with the 'new age' movement your friend is into, and may be willing to help, or guide you to a knowledgable Christian source on the matter. Those who were once into that mess and have come to Christ can be a much stronger witness than a believer that's never been associated with it. The non-believer doesn't want to be told they are wrong about their unbelief, they have to be shown 'how' those falsely influencing them are wrong. There is nothing new under the sun per God's Word. What has been will be again, as written in Eccl.1. So God's Word covers that involvement your friend is in and how to counter it, which is God's counsel for you, a believer. The last thing you want to do is get into heated anger-throwing arguments with him. Actions really do speak louded than words, especially in front of a non-believer when the accuser (devil) of our brethren is waiting to use it against us. Per the example of Ezekiel 37 about the dry bones, each time you witness to him, afterwards it's important to pray for his understanding. If you get to the point where you have finally exhausted all that, and there is no change, then it's time to leave it in Christ's hands. All we can do is plant seeds for our Lord, He is The One Who causes one to hear Him and His Truth.

In Christ Jesus,
dp

Every believer on The Savior Jesus Christ should at least once read through God's vision given to Ezekiel in Ezekiel 8 about the abominations of false worship the leaders of the "house of Israel" were doing, in secret, behind closed doors.

Ezek 8:6-10
6   He said furthermore unto me, "Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from My sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations."
7   And He brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8   Then said He unto me, "Son of man, dig now in the wall:" and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9   And He said unto me, "Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here."
10   So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11   And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
(KJV)

Those "ancients of the house of Israel" represented the relgious leadership over Israel in that day. Note what they had fallen into. Is that kind of thing still going on among some reglious leaders today, even among Christianity? Yes, most definitely. Those now belong to secret fraternities like the Masons and Rosicrucians.

Members of secret orders like the Masonic Lodge and more mystical fraternities like the Rosicrucians will say that kind of thing in Ezekiel 8 God warned us about is not going on in their secret initiations behind closed doors, but the ancient pagan symbols they use in their ceremonies of initiation, and their references to teachings of the ancients reveal otherwise. We know of the good charitable work done by Masons, but that is an excellent front to hide the secret workings of such mystical orders. There are many secret and quasi-secret mystical fraternities in the world today, and orders like the Masons and Rosicrucians are simply jumping off platforms to join other ones. The Rosicrucian Order (AMORC) serves as a jumping off point to the Traditional Martinist Order, a mystical order founded by the French mystic Claude de St.Martin. The Martinists, or TMO, delve in mystical ceremonial worship and the Jewish Kabbalah system of occult mysticism.

Those mystical groups are the ones behind today's inter-faith movement, as they seek to join all the world's religions into one. This is why some Churches are now inviting practicioners from other religions into their Church, even allowing a show of those other religions right in front of the congregation! That working is what those religious leaders in Ezekiel's time were trying to do in God's Temple, joining all the pagan idolatry systems of their day in one place, in God's sanctuary.

Because of the liberal theologies taught by some Ministers in today's Churches, we should not be blind to this type of working today. No doubt many Christians are leaving those kind of Churches with leadership like that. Don't leave, boot 'em out using the authority our Lord Jesus gave us over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10). But before one can do that, they must do their 'homework' on this, per God's Word. One thing is sure, those kind of Churches with leaders that are suspect in this abomination are not going to teach you about this from God's Word.

In Christ Jesus,
dp

Sorry to take up so much space in my last post everyone, I have a habit of line upon line study, and that's how I like to cover God's Word when speaking about It with others also.

at_the_Cross,

In reference to Satan with that word 'beast':  it is also a title applied to him, not only his beast system he is over. We learn that with the clause "another beast" in Rev.13:11 forward when specifically talking about his title of the "dragon".

He is the beast that was, because the ten horned beast system of Rev.12:3-4 that only had "seven crowns" instead of ten, was his system of old when he first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him.

I realize some might be having a problem understanding about Satan's rebellion of old, and how far back it was, and what type of rebellion it was. Recall in Genesis 2 and most of Genesis 3 that God's Garden of Eden was then upon this earth. Adam and Eve dwelt in It, disobeyed God there and were cast out from It. After the fall of Adam, God removed His Abode off this earth (latter verses of Gen.3). But He will return It back to this earth, which is what that great River subject is about in Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 (note especially Gen.2:10; that's the same River flowing out of Eden of Rev.22! Ezekiel 47 is also a must read on that). God gave us a few hints like that which also relate to a time in Eden when even Satan was perfect in his ways before he rebelled (Ezekiel 28:12-18; Ezek.31). Our LORD wants us to understand that part too, because He has promised to return to this earth and live in the midst of us, literally (Rev.22; last verse of Ezek.48).

He (Satan) yet is, because he won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

Even he is the eighth, because Satan will be allowed just one more try to tempt the nations, which is... after... the "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus on earth is over (per Rev.20 when he is released out of the 'pit'). That's the very last time for the 'beast' type system working by Satan. After that, it's off to the "lake of fire" with him. This is why Gog and Magog are mentioned there again in Rev.20 after Christ's thousand years reign. It's because those nation type labels are symbols for the 'beast' working over nations. The Ezekiel 38-39 Gog and Magog example is for our time though, just prior to Christ's second coming to start His thousand years reign on earth with His elect (known in Scripture as the future "day of the LORD").

The label of "beast" in Revelation relates to a dangerous animal, like a rabid venomous animal...

2 Pet 2:12
12   But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(KJV)

Jude 1:10-11
10   But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11   Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
(KJV)

It is a marker for corruption on such a level that they will have to be destroyed, like a wild crazy animal that cannot be healed. Such are the "workers of iniquity" and fallen angels who purposefully worship Lucifer and work against God and His Christ.

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
Dave

at_the_Cross, brethren and sisters,

Well, line upon line must be the basis of our study in God's Word. Our study may lead to many other Scriptures, but we are to first keep a line upon line flow within the Chapter we're studying first. Hopefully this will make it more clear what I'm talking about. at_the_Cross, I do understand what you mean on this in relation to Daniel 7 and 8 about the little horn subdueing three kings, and of casting stars down in Daniel 8:9-10. The only problem with that is the timing is different in most of these first five Rev.12 verses.

Rev 12:1
1   And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(KJV)

The definition of that first sign (wonder)...

Gen 37:9-10
9   And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."
10   And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
(KJV)

Joseph dreamed about "eleven stars" because he himself represented the 12th star in that. Joseph's father (Jacob) and mother understood the "sun" and "moon" symbols meant them per verse 10 above. And God changed Jacob's name to 'Israel'. So this Rev.12:1 verse is clearly about the Seed of the Woman first mentioned in Gen.3:15, i.e. the start of the family lineage our Lord Jesus would be born through. So there is no way these symbols represent anything else, like the EU or what not. That won't fit this example from our Lord Jesus. (The 12 stars of the EU will fit Satan's attempt at building his own version of God's Israel though. I'll easily agree with that working).

Rev 12:2
2   And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(KJV)

She who? The woman of the previous verse, that's who; and who was that? Israel, which is what the 'sun', the 'moon', and 12 stars represent. How far back does the bloodline lineage Christ came through travel? All the way back to Adam and Eve (Luke 3). This child represents the beginning of Christ's lineage in Genesis. We are back to Genesis with Cain and Abel at this above verse.

Rev 12:3
3   And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(KJV)

Another sign in heaven is given. This time it's that old serpent, the devil, and Satan. That's who John intends here with this "great red dragon" symbol. Why? Because John said so later on in this same Rev.12 Chapter...

Rev 12:9
9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

That great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns are symbols of a kingdom, a dominion. It is not the same one John speaks of later in Rev.13:1, but it is like it. Why? Because Rev.12:4 goes with Rev.12:3 and cannot be separated because of the flow of the subject. So what happened with that seven crowned, seven head, ten horned system in relation to verse 4...

Rev 12:4
4   And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

Who's tail? The tail of the "great red dragon" John just mentioned back in the 3rd verse. Who is that dragon per John? Satan, that old serpent himself; his tail drew one third of the "stars of heaven". Did that say he drew one third of the 12 stars on the woman's crown? No. These "stars of heaven" are a different sign. They represent heavenly powers, angels even. Rev.1:20 tells us the 7 stars are the 'angels' of the seven Churches. Thus 'stars' can represent angels also, yet these "stars of heaven" represent Satan's angels, for that is also part of the subject here which John is going to pick up starting at Rev.12:7. So when did Satan draw a third part of the 'stars of heaven', meaning his angels?

Job 1:6-7
6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7   And the LORD said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
(KJV)

If you recall what happened in Genesis 6, the "sons of God" (angels) who left their own habitation and took wives of the daughters of men, and the result was a hybrid giant offspring on the earth. Jude 1 tells us they went after strange flesh, and kept not their first estate. Here in Job 1 Satan appears before God among them. Satan's station was upon the earth per that verse. So the question is, when was Satan first cast down to the earth back then, and was he cast down then with the angels he drew with his tail into rebellion with him? When did that rebellion first happen? Put it this way, Ezekiel 28:12-18 are verses definitely speaking about Satan. That's who the "anointed cherub that covereth" mentioned there is. He originally served God upon His Holy Mountain we are told, and he was originally perfect in his ways, before he fell into iniquity. God even originally made him the full pattern of beauty. When was that time when Satan fell into iniquity against God, when he even said against God, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"? (Isa.14:14).

That timing when Satan first fell is also the timing that seven headed, ten horned, and seven crown system occurred in. We are not told specifically in God's Word when that was, because we are not told how far back in time it was when Satan originally rebelled against God. But we know it happened, and it was a very long time ago, because Satan as "that old serpent" was already prepared to attack the Seed of the Woman back in Genesis 3. The foudation of God's Plan of Salvation had to have already been established in Heaven by that time. Genesis 3:15 is even the first hint of The Savior coming to die on the cross.

The Rev.12:4 example of the system with ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, is a symbol for Satan's kingdom he tried to establish back in the days of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him against God. That's why it is given along with the subject of Satan getting ready to attack the Seed of the Woman that refers us back to Genesis 3-4. It goes with that early timing and subject of Satan's first attacking the Seed of the Woman. It's in prep for understanding the remaining Rev.12:6 through Rev.12:17 verses about an end time attacking, and ultimately the new system with ten crowns this time starting in Rev.13.

Now the latter part of Rev.12:4, who is that 'woman' again? It's Israel. What child was that dragon (Satan) waiting to devour as soon as she gave birth? Well, what happened to righteous Abel? His brother Cain murdered him, as Satan tried many times in OT history to break up the family our Lord Jesus would be born through, even down to the time of attacking the Baby Jesus through king Herod. This is the emnity between Satan and the Seed of the woman per Gen.3:15. That "child" thus is a symbol for the family lineage of Christ, even our Lord Jesus Himself we find out in the next verse.
 
Rev 12:5
5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
(KJV)

Who is this "she" again? The "woman" back at the very start of this, i.e. Israel, the seedline of Christ. This "man child" who is to rule all nations with a "rod of iron" is Who? That is our Lord Jesus. When will He do that de facto in Person? In the future, the "thousand years" timing of Rev.20. Big jump forward in time with this 5th verse.
 
Rev 12:6
6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

Here's a reference to the tribulation timing, i.e. 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years. Now the timeline is jumping way forward, to the end of days just prior to Christ's return. Again, this 'woman' represents God's Israel (including His spiritual Israel through Christ also, i.e. the Church. See Rev.12:17 about those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ).


dp

Yes Allinall, that 1 Cor.5 example is one of excommunication from the Church. Some scholars feel there was at that time more to it than a simple excommunication from the Church at Corinth, because to be assigned to Satan's kingdom of this world certainly leads to death through calamities of the flesh. In that sense, it was a death penalty, but not per OT methods. At this point in time of 1 Cor.5 we know the brother had not been received back into the Church...

1 Cor 5:4-5
4   In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5   To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)

The phrase "the day of the Lord Jesus" means the Biblical 'day of The LORD'. And the Biblical 'day of The LORD' does not mean Sunday, it means the future "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus on earth with His elect priests and kings. In 2 Thess.2:2, Phil.1:10 and Phil.2:16 the phrase is 'day of Christ', but the Greek word 'kurios' in 2 Thess.2:2 meaning 'lord' was translated to 'Christ'.

So if that believer had not repented and made a change, then he would not be received back into the earthly Church at Corinth, and his spirit defaulted to shame at the day of The LORD. If his sin had been murder, authorities outside the Church at Corinth most likely would have dealt with it, as most likely would be the case today also. So what I said about rebellion in the above post still holds true that God's laws, which many of them are still instituted in the justice systems today, still do have an effect upon the rebellious, whether that be a believer or nonbeliever. It's very important for Ministers today to teach this so all believers will understand about discipline in the Church, and outside the Church.

When I use the idea of a 'professed believer' it's not meant in the negative sense, I mean it in the sense that one who has professed outwardly his belief on The Savior.

Not all of the family relational view you mention will fit all Biblical examples, because we already know we all are God's children, even Satan himself being one of God's creations who was perfect in the beginning (Ezek.28), yet he and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish, as not all will have Salvation. Though God does not wish it, we know many will perish in the lake of fire.

Check out Ezekiel 44 and see what you think. It teaches about status during Christ's future thousand years reign, and fits well the family relational idea you speak of. The priests that misled God's people will be in a state of shame and will bear their iniquity.

In Christ Jesus,
dp

at_the_Cross,

If you'll look closely at all the Daniel examples of the ten horned beast, even back to Daniel 2:39-44, we find it is a symbol for the very last world kingdom upon earth before God's Kingdom is setup. Even in Daniel 7:24-27 we find the ten horn kingdom being destroyed at last and given to the saints of The Most High. That timing is linked with Christ's second coming and has not happened yet (Rev.11:15). That is why some who treat that fourth kingdom as old pagan Rome believe it must be revived again for the end of days (our time).

However we relate that fourth kingdom to old Rome or another kingdom, the fourth kingdom of ten horns is a symbol that continues all the way to the end, mainly because of God's Kingdom being established at its destruction. So whatever world kingdom is formed up on earth prior to Christ's return, we know that symbol of the last false kingdom must be included in it. In that sense, the ten horns become a type of 'blueprint'.

Note the first five verses of Rev.12. The woman clothed in the sun relates to God's Israel, because those symbols are hard linked to the dream Joseph had about his mother, father, and eleven brethren per Genesis 37. It is then about the first establishing of the "Seed" of the woman through whom Christ would be born through, with Satan trying to stop it, even back to the time in the Garden with Eve. Notice those ten horns, seven heads, and seven crown symbols are tied with Satan's first rebellion with his angels (stars). We know per Rev.20:2 and 12:9 the name "dragon" is another one of Satan's many titles. So that ten horn example is also... tied to his rebellion of old, when he drew one third of the angels into rebellion with him against God (per Rev.12:3-4). That particular ten horn example already took place when Satan first rebelled, and we are to notice that as a 'blueprint' for the future ten horn example that follows in Rev.13:1 which is to have "ten crowns". If that Rev.12:3 ten horn example had not been given along with that event of the drawing of a third part of the stars (angels), then it would fit the little horn subduing three kings as you say.

God's Word jumps to past and future timelines very quickly in some Scripture, and those Rev.12:1-5 verses are one of them. Note then, at Rev.12:6, the timing changes to the future, as the 1260 days timing given is in relation to the beast system of Rev.13 forward (Rev.13:5 as 42 months). Rev.12:17 is also a marker for future timing of that 1260 days of great tribulation upon the woman. So there's quite a bit of timeline jumping in that Revelation 12 Chapter.


Rev.17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


A birdseye view in God's Word is needed for some of this. Recall per Rev.13 mentions two different 'beasts', the first being a world kingdom or system over the whole earth, and the second beast, the "another beast" starting at Rev.13:11 being the 'dragon' himself. So that 'beast' name is a metaphor for Satan ultimately wanting to be The KING, and claiming dominion over the whole earth (note how he tempted our Lord with this in Luke 4:5-7). In OT times, with the past pagan kingdoms like old Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Tyre, etc., all of them are symbolic blueprints of attempts at a false one-world kingdom over all the earth. God uses the word Babylon again in Revelation for the last one, because it means 'confusion' and relates to the attempted early world takeover at the tower of Babel (and even back to Satan's original rebellion with certain Hebrew word passages). In Isaiah 14, God uses the king of Assyria and Lucifer as a symbol link for that 'beast' working. Again that type of symbolic link is drawn between Satan and the king of Tyrus, the king of Assyria, and Pharaoh in Ezekiel 28 through 31. That means God wants us to note this blueprint He gave, and understand how all those past 'beast' kingdoms relate to the final one up to His return, and even to the one Satan will tempt the nations with after Christ's future thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9).

Per Rev.17:11, this is how Satan can be...

"the beast that was" - his rebellion of old, a system that had "seven crowns" which he ruled over and drew one third of the stars with.

"and is not" - he has not ruled de facto 'in person' on earth since that first time he rebelled of old when God ended it and cast him down. The old pagan beast system flesh kings on earth in OT times ruled in his stead for him.

"even he is the eighth" - the kingdom he will tempt the nations with after Christ's thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9). This is still way... future to us.

"and is of the seven" - he was behind all those past world kingdoms of history, the flesh kings only serving as 'types' of his rebellion on earth (see analogies of Ezekiel 28 and 31).

"and goeth into perdition" - one of his titles is "Apollyon" (Rev.9:11) which means 'the destroyer', and is from the Greek 'apollumi' which also gives 'apoleia', which means 'perdition'. He has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", God causing a fire within himself to consume him (Ezek.28:18).

Within all this, it is possible to see the 'beast' kingdom working in 'blueprint' form also within that old League of Nations bent, and with many other one-world kingdom type ideas (like Communism, Socialism, Globalism, one-world relgion, etc.). Some have mentioned that the Trilateralists already have a plan to divide the earth up into ten specific regions of power, and the Americas even into a ten system divided region. We'll have to wait and see as more of God's prophecies come forth to be sure of the small details though. I personally believe that the Antichrist will be Satan de facto in person on earth, ruling over the ten kings of Rev.13. I get the sense from Scripture that God is reserving that final false king role of the latters days for Satan himself, and is linked to his very first attempt at ruling in God's stead. There are many Scripture pointers to that, if you understood what I covered within this. Here's one of them...

Rev 17:8
8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)


Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
dp

Per Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 another one of Christ Jesus' Titles is "Immanuel", which means 'with us is God' or 'God with us'. Even the Title 'Jesus' refers to Jehovah (Jesus is the Greek version name for the Hebrew name Joshua. And the name Joshua in Hebrew means 'Jehovah is salvation'). Those who refuse to believe don't know it, but even by saying our Lord's Name 'Jesus', or 'Iesous', or 'Yashua', one is saying 'Jehovah is Salvation'!

Those behind the idea of denying that Jesus Christ is God are the same sort that denied Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ at His first coming and after He rose from the dead (see Matthew 28:11-15).

The workers of iniquity behind the secret socieites also deny that Jesus is God, because they can't establish their one-world religion to include all faiths if the one Faith (Christianity) is presented as being above all others. And they use many deceptions in trying to humanize our Lord Jesus away from being God with us, Emmanuel. They will lie and say 'you' can become your very own 'Christ', or you can become 'a Christ', etc. That's the same old lie Satan told Eve in the Garden about becoming your own god. They will lie and say Jesus had a flesh wife and flesh children (Da Vinci Code junk). They will lie and say there are many paths to God, not just through Christ Jesus.

Jude 1:10-16
10   But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11   Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12   These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13   Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15   To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16   These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
(KJV)

One Bible question I get a lot is how to figure the "three days and three nights" our Lord Jesus was in the tomb, and the timing of His crucifixion and His Resurrection. The important thing to remember is to use the Hebrew day reckoning of time. Per the Hebrew reckoning, the new day began at sunset, not midnight.

These Scripture examples give the basis to figure the timing:

John 19:31
31   The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
(KJV)

Matt 28:1
1   In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
(KJV)

Matt 12:40
40   For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(KJV)

The John 19 verse links with Leviticus 23 on when the Passover sacrifice was to be held, which was at evening (Lev.23:5 and Exo.12:6). Our Lord Jesus was crucified at the exact timing required to fit the Passover sacrificial lamb per OT reckoning. (And thus Paul says about our Lord Jesus, "...even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" in 1 Corinthians 5:7).

The "high sabbath" John 19:31 mentions did not mean the regular weekly sabbath (Saturday). Per Leviticus 23 the Passover was to always be a high sabbath, whichever day it fell on. Our Lord was crucified at the time of evening, and then at sunset per the Hebrew reckoning would begin the next day, the high sabbath. That's why they hurried to bury the bodies.

Understanding that, then it's a simple matter of counting the "three days and three nights" our Lord's Body would be in the tomb, per the Hebrew reckoning...

Our Lord Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, and at Wednesday evening sunset His Body was taken off the cross and placed in the tomb. Count starts at Wednesday sunset.

1st night - Wednesday evening after sunset began Thursday. From Thursday at sunset to Thursday morn was the first night.
1st day - From Thursday morn to Thursday evening. At Thursday evening at sunset began Friday.
2nd night - Friday at sunset to Friday morn was 2nd night in the tomb.
2nd day - From Friday morn to Friday evening was 2nd day. At Friday evening at sunset began Saturday.
3rd night - Saturday at sunset to Saturday morn was 3rd night.
3rd day - From Saturday morn to Saturday evening was 3rd day in the tomb. Saturday evening at sunset began Sunday.

Per Matthew 28, the regular weekly sabbath (Saturday) was at end when Mary Magdalene and and our Lord's mother went to the tomb, on the first day of the week (Sunday). Dawn was starting, so it was sometime Sunday morning. When they came to His tomb Jesus had already risen. So our Lord had risen sometime during the time from Saturday sunset to Sunday morning. Since He promised He would rise after "three days and three nights" in the tomb, He rose on Sunday, sometime after sunset Saturday per Hebrew reckoning, not to include a whole another night.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

Yes, that would be correct, and I do also have a 1st edition copy of the original 1611 KJV with the margin notes and Letters to King James and to the Reader.

So tell me then, what do you think is the "It" part Paul's talking about that is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption? If the body of corruption is the flesh body, and the body of incorruption is the "spiritual body", then what is the "It" he refers to being sown in either body?

In Christ Jesus,
dp

Excellent description Dreamweaver, though I am partial to the 1611 KJV reading.

Those four words (per the KJV) of "corruptible", "incorruption", "mortal", and "immortality" of 1 Cor.15:53-54 are about two distinct qualities. Corruptible and incorruption are about the form and outward image of appearance, but the words mortal and immortality are about the condition of the soul.

1 Cor 15:48-50
48   As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49   And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

In these verses above Paul is only speaking about the outward appearance, i.e. the difference between the 'image' appearance of a flesh body compared to the outward appearance of a spiritual body. Because of verse 50, we know the spiritual body will not be exactly the same type of body as the flesh bodies we have now. But I agree, it will appear material, and will have substance, as our Lord sat down and ate fish and honeycomb after God had raised Him, and Thomas felt His Resurrected Body (recall the 'three men' who appeared to Abraham in Gen.18. One was our Lord and the other two were angels).

Strong's gives the Greek definitions of "mortal" in verse 53 to mean 'liable to die', and "immortality" to mean deathlessness, or not ever subject to death.

Those distinctions should make us study deeper on what Paul was talking about, because after the "last trump" change, who will still be in that 'liable to die' state? Rev.20 tells us the "second death" is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's thousand years reign on earth. Some believe that the "dead" of Rev.20:5 are still in their graves after Christ has returned, and will be resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation" only to be cast into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's future reign.

Paul said it was his hope there will be both a resurrection of the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15). Paul's hope was of the type of wanting as many to be saved unto Christ as possible, and not simply raised for a quick judgment to the lake of fire. Because of verses like Rev.3:9 where Jesus is saying to His servants of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those of the 'synagogue of Satan' come and worship Him at the feet of His elect, that is a pointer that the resurrection of the unjust will occur on that "last trump" event also, and they will be aware through that thousand years, and not literally asleep in their graves. That follows the John 5:25-29 and Matthew 25:30-31 verses.

This means that the spiritual body, which is a heavenly image in outward appearance is what all will have in that time after the "last trump" at Christ's return. But the state of one's soul determines whether one has immortality in Christ Jesus or not. Because the "second death" is not destruction of a flesh body, it means a type of death that is to a spiritual body and soul, for the dead cannot die a flesh again after Christ returns. Flesh death will be over at that point in time.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

Bob, not to sound like I'm beating up on you dear brother, but I'm going to have to agree with one of the items FoC listed about that Greek word for "fornication" from our Lord Jesus in Matthew 19:9.

Because God is also making a comparison to spiritual adultery (false worship) in Malachi 2:11 and Jeremiah 3 with the idea of spiritual divorce between Him and His people, that points to that word "fornication" (Greek 'porneia') meaning sexual relations outside the marriage, and is thus a reason for legimate divorce. Also, God commanded Hosea to take a harlot for a wife (Hosea 1). The reason? It was to be a sign to Israel of how they had played the harlot (spiritually) against God in falling away to idol worship. So Hosea probably wouldn't have married a harlot otherwise.

Those in OT times who put their wife away did it for not simply liking their wife, or because they wanted to take another (that's part of what Malachi 2 is about, for the even the priests were doing that, even marrying strange wives - see Ezra 9).

That doesn't make God's institution of marriage any less sacred, because He has made a marriage contract (covenant) with us that He will not go back on. But we can break that contract with Him by going into spiritual harlotry. That's what old Israel did, and thus 'they' were the ones who caused the spiritual divorce from God. This spiritual part of the Message is still in effect today, all the way up to Christ's return, and is why He gave parables involving spiritual virgins, travailing with child, being espoused to one Husband, etc. That would mean the deeper reason why God hates divorce is because of how Satan led one-third of God's children into rebellion with him, and is still trying lead as many as will to commit spiritual harlotry against God before he goes into the lake of fire.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

There's still another level to that kind of problem. It has much to do with some of the newer Bible translations, such as the NIV. For example, the NIV is from a different set of manuscripts than the KJV. The Greek text is associated with Westcott and Hort's 19th century 'new age' influences. Because of those influences in the NIV, and with more Ministers accepting it and the idea of ecumenicalism (joining of all religions), that's why those are getting away from a 'literal' interpretation of Genesis, our Lord's conception through virgin Mary, and what Genesis 6 says about the fallen angels mating with flesh woman on earth.

Not only that, in the 1st century A.D. a group of heretics called the Gnostics took Greek and pagan philosophy and mixed it with Christian doctrine, and they also used the name Christian to apply to themselves. They did not believe Jesus really died on the cross, but that He lived to be an old man. Our Lord's Apostles and disciples contended with that false Gnostic system early in Christian history. Those false Gnostic ideas are still present in the world today, and the concept of the "New Age Church" is no doubt part of that movement. Those are preparing many for the Babylon Harlot one-world church of Revelation 17, which cannot include the apostates who fall away from Christ without first compromising accuracy in God's Word. That explains why more Ministers are refusing to teach Genesis as literal history. It's because many of them are becoming athestic themselves.

The next problem is how God's Word has different levels of understanding. I present a simple analogy on that using knowledge of automobiles. The first level of knowledge would be someone who only knows how to put gas in a car, air up the tires, wax it, etc. The next level might be the mechanic, who has a working knowledge of its parts and principles and can repair it. The deepest level would be the engineer who can design it. All three of those levels agree with each other. They are simply different levels of the same truth, the car in this case. This kind of comparison is given in Hebrews 5 when speaking about the 'milk' understanding vs. the "strong meat" understanding in God's Word.

The other problem is how too many fellow-believers simply rely on man to interpret God's Word for them without verifying in It for themselves. Some people don't want to think for theirselves but instead want to trust in some man who tells them what to believe (i.e., the opposite of those at Berea - Acts 17:10-12). Many believers today are in the state like Isaiah 30:10 where God mocked them saying, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:". Thus I can't help thinking if that father had been on the "strong meat" of The Word, he wouldn't have chosen to listen to that kind of Minister, and thus his son would not have become apostate.

dp

Tom, I'm not going to debate the usage of that "once saved..." slogan either. Nor am I a Judaizer trying to get others to go back in bondage to the law. I'm not even Jewish. And I agree with that working of God's Grace through His Son Jesus Christ you mentioned. If you read more closely what I posted above, you should discover what I said agreed with what Paul taught on how the law still has effect on the rebellious, even a believer who becomes rebellious, especially by the 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 example.

So let's not fool ourselves away from what God's Word says, because it is possible for a believer also to appear in shame and nakedness to Christ at His coming, yet that does not necessarily mean losing their Salvation...

Rev 3:11
11   Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15
15   Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

What did our Lord Jesus mean with "lest he walk naked, and they see his shame"? Our good works in Christ follow us to Heaven per Rev.14:13. Our righteous garments in Heaven are linked to our good works in Christ. Our Lord is giving a warning in that verse to keep on watch for His return, and not let His coming take us by surprise, like it will with many. Jesus is saying that to believers (see Rev.3:4 and 3:18). The meaning is to not 'fall away' from Him. The analogy of nakedness and shame refers to the relationship some believers will have with Him when He returns, because they fell away or asleep when they should have been watching and ready for His return. That is connected to the great falling away Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, when a false one will sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Paul said there that two things must occur before Christ's return, and that's one of them.

In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins were turned away by Christ at His coming. The fact that they were 'virgins' means they were believers on Him as The Savior. Likewise in Matthew 25, about the unprofitable servant, that's a parable pointing to a professed believer on Christ. We have the same lesson in the parable of the steward in Luke 12:36-48, which when he thought the Lord delayed His coming, that servant began to beat his own servants, became a drunkard, etc. Jesus said that servant will be appointed his portion with the 'unbelievers'. Our Lord Jesus also gave the following example...

Matt 7:21-23
21   Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22   Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23   And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

Which group of people is that above? Nonbelievers? No. Ezekiel 44 gives a deeper lesson on this, but it's a Scripture study many hardly ever get to. Those who remain faithful in Christ all the way to the end will rule with Him, being His priests and kings (Rev.1:5-6; 5:9-10). In Ezekiel 44, those priests are the Zadok (meaning 'the just'). Only those will be allowed near our Lord Jesus in that future Millennium time. The rest of the priests there are those who fell away when Israel went astray, and they shall bear their iniquity (i.e., related to the naked and ashamed analogy of Rev.16:15, 3:4, 3:18. Those Ezekiel 40 through 48 Chapters are still yet future to us.)

So what is the main comparison with that? It's about Family relationship. In the earthly family relationship, when a member breaks the house rules they can suffer a punsihment, but that doesn't mean they are totally cut off from the family, unless they want to be. With God's Family, He doesn't want anyone to perish, but He will chastize us if He loves us, to bring us back into His Family. And He will allow those who want to be cut off from Him to perish. So there is always a difference between a believer who falls away from Him but still loves Him, vs. someone who flat refuses Him.

In Christ Jesus,
dp