What you're talking about Tundra is the misguided concept of "once saved always saved". Who does it serve to tell believers on Christ Jesus that once they believe and are baptized, then they don't have to keep a check on theirselves to see if they're sinning or not, i.e., not to even be concerned about sinning? Who would want us to fall into that thinking? The devil.

Our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy 'shall' be forgiven men, except for the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31). Being in God's Grace is the same thing as being part of a Family. In the earthly family relationship, we won't go out and do things that would disgrace or hurt our family if we truly love them. Likewise, if we love our Heavenly Father we will try not to do things that would disgrace Him, but instead do things that please Him. He gave us His Word to learn how to do things that please Him, and stay away from those things that don't. Because there is a limit to how much rebellion our earthly father would take, the unpardonable sin also reveals there's a limit to rebellion against our Heavenly Father. And just as we at times fall short and mess up a little with our earthly family, then repent and ask forgiveness of them, we also are to repent and ask forgiveness of our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ, our Heavenly Family.

Paul compared some serious sins that some do which can prevent them from entering the Kingdom of Heaven (see latter part of Romans 1 and Galatians 5, which are foundational Books on Christianity). He compared those things with acts which keep us from being 'under the law'...

Gal 5:22-26
22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23   Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24   And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25   If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26   Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(KJV)

Contrary to the opinion of many, per Scripture God's Law is not dead, meaning IF... we do not walk by The Spirit and don't follow those fruits of the Spirit, then we automatically put ourselves back in bondage 'under the law', and most often, there is a price to pay for breaking it. Exactly what does that mean? Many of the laws in the western Christian nations came right out of God's Law. It still is against the law to steal, to murder, to rape, to delve in sorcery (i.e., drug abuse), etc. We only have to look at how the law in court history has been administered to see how the law is still in effect today, but only... for those who do not follow the fruits of the Spirit, which there is no law against.

In Romans and Galatians, Paul explained how some of those among them who came to Christ and believed once followed some of those old pagan ways, because of ignorance, and thus were under the law, but now, being in Christ they were to walk by The Spirit, and by that they would no longer be under the law. Paul said in Romans 7:7 that he "had not known sin but by the law", and in Romans 3:20 that "by the law is the knowledge of sin." Through God's Grace we are saved, and not by the law nor of our own works. It is a Gift, an unmerited Gift we cannot earn. But that does not mean we can now run wild and do anything we want, just because we are saved by His Grace through Christ's Blood shed on the cross. To do that is to not walk by The Spirit, and thus go back into bondage. And that is meant literally, for even a Christian who commits a murder might have their 'spirit' saved in the Day of The Lord Jesus, but what will happen to them on this earth? Even a Christian who does that and is convicted will go to prison, and possibly even have their flesh assigned to destruction (death penalty - see the 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 New Testament example).

God's Ways are order, discipline and peace; not chaos, rebellion and revolution which will get a believer in trouble. Thus a person can either come to The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and have 'true' liberty by walking in The Spirit, which still does require self-discipline, or they can run amuck into rebellion and let the law discipline them. Either way, we cannot escape the need for discipline. Because our Lord Jesus will return this next time to rule the nations with "a rod of iron" (Rev.2:26-27; Rev.19:15), it shows there will be discipline during His future "thousand years" reign on earth also (Rev.20). It has been this way from the beginning, otherwise even His remnant would be as Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 1:9; Romans 11:5). "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:

dp



 

Why am I not surprised Roger? And the "Newspeak" media is doing everything it can to portray those boy's acts of hatred against Christ as simply a prank gone too far. It's the same type of double-speak with the media outlets that refuse to portray the 9-ll acts as 'terrorism' linked to religious hatred against Jews and Christians.

I guarantee, if it was religious buildings being burned linked to any other religion than Christianity, there would be a burst of outcries from the Leftist liars.

dp

Yes, I understand what you said about the Kalifate. But I don't believe it's the leaders of Islam that are really 'pulling the strings', though they have been allied with Russia for quite a while, even back to Biblical times. I strongly believe the chief prince of Meshech in Ezekiel 38 refers to leadership in Russia, and is from an old connection to Esau, thus  meaning Esau (also called Edom or Idumea) represents Russia in the latter days. Esau married into the families of Ishmael and took Canaanite wives, and also after God had judged the old nation of Edom south of Jerusalem it became absorbed by Judah, many of Idumea becoming Jews by religious pratice only. (The Herods were of Idumean origin per the Jewish historian Josephus).

If we look at Israel's enemies today, and the supporters allied with Israel's enemies, like Russia, then the Ezekiel 38 Scripture points out a link to the northern lands like Russia and its satellites in Asia Minor being allied with Persia (Iran, Syria, etc.), Libya, and Ethiopia in trying to destroy Israel once and for all.

Today, both Russia and Red China operate their own State sanctioned Christian Church system. If you want to be a Christian in those lands under Communist rule, then you must be a member of their state Christian Church. They are and have been making concessions to the West's call to ease up on Christianity in their lands. That shows their intent to use religions to later destroy them and thus all concept of religion (which has always been a Marxist goal). Also, most are not seeing the secret society link in that, since we don't hear about that side much in public. Nevertheless, the secret societies are the driving force and link behind the scenes in all nations. And that side, per Weishaupt's secret papers that were discovered in Bavaria (see John Robison's work "Proofs Of A Conspiracy"), has always had the goal of destroying all of today's religions and putting the worship of Lucifer in place. Thus Islam is a smaller movement and is being used; it's not the driving force behind the scenes.

That eventually gets down to the topic of God's Birthright to Israel. The enemy believes the Birthright always is to go to the firstborn. Cain, Ishmael, and Esau, were all firstborns, but did not inherit The Promises, which that Birthright included God's Blessing of great national wealth and resources. That's why they want Israel destroyed. That also ultimately leads to the matter of Satan coveting the throne of David on earth, which is reserved for our Lord Jesus Christ.

If we keep in mind that the Soviet leadership still in power in Russia today (Putin is KGB), still has not left their long-range plan for one world Socialism on their terms, and how some of our leaders in the West are also working towards that goal, and relate all that to the ten horned beast system our Lord Jesus warned us about in Revelation 13 and 17, then we should be able to sift through their propaganda news. But the fact that the globalists started working out in the open in the mid 80's, and have even held public debates on the issue of a one world government over all nations, it means they're pretty sure it's beyond stopping now. That's also a sign of how close we are to Christ's second coming.

The idea of radical Islam taking over the world is not a real threat in their eyes. They're simply using that as a lever against the West to weaken us politically towards world socialism. At the same time, it will serve as one of their tools to control all religious intolerance in the future. It's to help to bring in their joining of relgions into a one world relgion ("MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT..." of Rev.17). That has a lot to do with the growing status quo today in the West of not speaking out against Islam while taking care of the extremists among them. Hal Lindsay found that out when he got booted for speaking out against Islam. This beast system is going to require all to become religious 'moderates', which is what the inter-faith working is for (remember the speeches and prayers from various religions together in one place right after the 9-11 event?).

Another revealing part of Quigley's book, is how Hitler was allowed to come to power and create havoc. Some of the insiders in Britain were trying to use Hitler's regime as a buffer state against Soviet Russia. So they supported his early rise to power. One of the results of WWII and Fascism towards the idea of one world socialism was the destruction of the idea of 'nationalism'. Memories of WWII and Hitler have been used countless times to remind peoples what happens when they want to keep a strong independent nation attitude (which they call 'nationalism' or 'isolationism'). It so happens that our U.S. Constitution requires us to have a strong nationalistic attitude, because it's one of the ideas in the Constitution which prevents our enemies from taking over, foreign or domestic. National pride is part of our American history. And it goes totally against the principles of globalism or internationalism, i.e. "one world government". That's why many of our leaders have thrown much of our U.S. Constitution away, and why the enemy says it is a "living document", to be changed as needed. It's also why they must daily attack America's early history which is very nationalistic, especially as it is linked to a Christian foundation. So just as the ideas of 'nationalism' from Hitler's rise to power was used to turn many towards globalist one world thinking, the same kind of strategy is being used now on the religion side of the coin with radical Islam. Those insiders don't want to destroy the world, but they will allow however much blood to be shed as needed to get their one world socialist viewpoint across.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

Roger,

I almost went Navy, but the recruiter was out on lunch break.

This is a very serious subject for today, I agree. And many fellow-believers are totally unprepared in it because of the political correctness issues going on, both in the public and in many of our mainstream organizational Churches. It appears that no matter what organization or group one forms up, Christ's enemies will always seek to creep into it to take it over for their own use. The fact that Judas was chosen as an Apostle by our Lord, and Jesus said he was a devil may be a Message to be aware of that creeping in. If He allowed that, then we shouldn't be naive in thinking He will simply cleanse our house for us without doing our part.

I've been mocked by some of our own brethren for speaking out on this issue, and I can't help thinking their Biblical understanding is so lacking that they've become scared. It's kind of obvious today we can't really trust all the news stories that are released either. One of the things Quigley revealed in his book Tragedy and Hope was how the Round Table group leaders in America sought to corner the newspaper media long ago by buying up 25 of the most influential ones. He names those in his book, The New York Times is one of them, which shouldn't be surprising for one who has kept on watch. The stategy behind that was if they got control of the majors, then all the other little ones would follow what the majors put out. That brings to mind books like George Orwell's "1984" of how key names and places were changed in news articles and re-released again, the 'Newspeak' thing. Much of the major news sources are used for influencing popular opinion, which Quigley also remarked on that strategy and how it has been used to sway the public. (He really did say a lot in his book that must have scared the 'insiders').

With all the twists, curves, and turns in today's news, it's impossible to sort all that without an understanding first in God's Word with His help. God's Word is the Great Neutralizer against all that today. The LORD is opening up understanding in His Word today like never before. Prior to the late 1970's and early 1980's, the majority never heard watchwords like "New World Order" and the idea of "one world government". The ten horned beast system idea of Revelation 13:1 didn't come forth until we started hearing and seeing the outward working towards a one world government.

Continued...
 

Continued from above...

Quigley revealed the hard part that's difficult to believe about some of our American leaders, and why those leaders do things not in our best interest while appearing to serve our nation the rest of the time. The Rhodes Scholarship program, he reveals, is really a school for future western leaders on the program of world Socialism towards a one world government. It's not just a program for smart people like most of us think (Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar by the way, and he went to Oxford for that schooling). Quigley also stated, in a matter of factly way, that the Establishment also sees no problem in working with the Communists, and often has done so. He does not talk about British Cosmopolitanism or Fabian Socialism, which one must learn from other sources for this tie in. The Fabian Socialists of Britain are for a one world Socialist state, just like the Communists. The difference is, the Fabian Socialists don't want to use force, but instead by bringing it through peacetime legislation, little by little (i.e. changing the laws). Whereas, the Communist system believes in using force.

How does all this affect us Christians? Well, it already has affected us, and many can't see it but seem to be groping in the dark for answers. God told us about this in His Word. It is written and will be understood if we listen to Him and ponder it.

One of the things Quigley reveals in his history about western leaders on the Socialist one world boat, is how those can include some very high upward leaders who profess Christ Jesus as their Savior. He shows that those leaders from America and Great Britain actually believe in a type of Kingdom of Heaven in the here and now sense, and that's it's their responsibility to help bring it to the whole world today. In reality though, those are really helping to fulfill Bible prophecy about the final one world 'beast' system that will be over all nations and peoples on earth, whether they know it or not. It appears they actually believe they can establish God's Kingdom in the here and now. This is why it is very difficult to argue with them, because they see themselves as the benefactors of mankind, and think they can bring peace on earth eventually. And many working for their system will have the same kind of world peace ideas, seeing themselves as unselfish helpers of mankind, when all along they are only being used to bring in the future rule of the Antichrist.

Why is God going to allow that one world system to happen with the Antichrist ruling over the whole world for the latter days? Ezekiel 38 and 39, the Book of Daniel, and our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation give many of the answers to that. One of the main reasons God gives in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is about the battle of Hamongog, which is to be upon Russia and its allies when they come upon Israel to surround it. God is going to fight that battle, not us. In Daniel and Revelation He said the power of His people will be overcome by that system, but only for a short time. The reason is, if He allows us to defeat His enemies, then they won't get the full effect of knowing He is The GOD, and there is none other. This is why we are being allowed to be weakened today by Christ's enemies. The weapons we are to fight with is the whole Armour of God (Ephesians 6). It's written in Luke 21 that some believers on The Savior are to be delivered up in the latter days, to give a Testimony for Christ. And the adversaries who hear that from The Holy Spirit will not be able to gainsay nor resist what is said at that time.

The Bible blueprint for this future one world kingdom is the type of kingdom Daniel was under in old Babylon. God promised Israel they would go into captivity for 70 years, and not to raise up literal arms against it, and that they would dwell in Babylon and build houses and plant vineyards, and bear children, i.e. live in peace (see Jeremiah). After that 70 years captivity, many of Judah didn't want to return to Jerusalem because they had gotten so well established in Babylon. God is able to take care of His people. In the latter years of Daniel's captivity, that's when the false prophets had the king of Babylon setup the false golden image for everyone to bow down to at the sound of the psalter. In Rev.13 another false 'image' is to be setup for the latter days for all to bow down to. That's from the old Babylon captivity blueprint, which is an 'ensample' to us (1 Cor.10:11). Have Faith, for Emmanuel Christ is with us.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

Pastor Roger and others here have put up some excellent posts on today's world events, and those are Biblical signs of where we are at prophecy-wise. But I feel some of the younger generation have a more difficult time understanding a lot of that because of the socialist ideas that have crept into our education system today. I served my country during the Vietnam War, so I'm a bit older, and remember growing up during the Cold War era when the battle lines against world Communism were clearly drawn. While in the USAF I even recall classroom instruction teaching about the principles and beliefs of the Communist system and how to recognize it. I've found too many young people today that lack understanding on that system, and how it is still operating today, and how God's Word reveals that Russia will be a major threat in the latter days before Christ's return. (See the latter day alignment of nations given in Ezekiel 38. The Hebrew for "chief" there, about the chief prince of Meshech, is the word 'Rosh', which scholars have revealed is from the word 'Rus', means the area of Russia.)

We are definitely not hearing the word Communism used in today's media like it was when I grew up. I've noticed a lot of young people today believe the false notion that we defeated Communism under the Reagan administration, when the Berlin Wall was allowed to come down, and the Soviets declared Perestroika. Sadly, too many of my generation believe that also. True, the Soviets have never defeated us on the battlefield, and they know they can never beat us on the battlefield. That's why they have resorted to a system to takeover the West from corrupting it 'within'. And it's not difficult to fathom that some our so-called leaders are helping them. That may be the really hard part to understand, why some of our own American leaders would turn against God, our nation, our military that's done such a good job, and sell us out.

First, here's some reference works for documentation on these things, just to show that I'm not popping all this out of nowhere:

1) "Proofs Of A Conspiracy", by John Robison (1798?). Robison was an English Mason, and wrote about events leading up to the French Revolution, and its connection with the Jacobin clubs of France in taking over the French lodges. He quoted from the secret papers found on the body of an agent of Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati, which outlined many ideas of a plan for world takeover. The Bavarian Illuminati was banned in Europe after those papers were discovered, but Weishaupt said it would go ten times greater into secrecy if its aims were ever found out. The ideals and principles in those papers reveal the plan that world Socialism and revolution to overthrow all governments and particularly Christianity, existed long before Marx or Lenin started Communism.

2) "The Naked Communist", by Cleon Skousen. Skousen was a 16 year FBI agent back in the 50's and 60's. He later was a professor at Brigham Young University (I am not a Mormon by the way; I'm a Protestant Christian). He wrote this in 1958. In it he outlined 45 points from the Soviet long-range plan to takeover the West. Some of those points can be clearly seen working today. This is by far the easiest book to read on the Communist ideology. Skousen gave a good warning for Christians with this work.

3) "New Lies For Old" by Anatoliy Golitsyn. He is an ex-KGB Colonel who defected to the United States in the 1960's with his family. He went to the U.S. State Department with a warning about the Soviet long-range strategy against the West. They didn't listen, so he got permission to write on it to the American public. His works have been ostracized by some so-called expert advisors on Soviet affairs from the Ivy League schools. Nevertheless, Golitysn predicted the Soviets would allow the Berlin Wall to come down if their 2nd phase disinformation strategy worked against the West. It happened a year later after he wrote this book, along with many other things he warns about. He reveals the Soviets changed their strategy after the Stalinist regime towards a more peaceful subversive strategy against the West. The long-range plan was devised in 1958, and has 3 phases. The last phase included the possibility in bringing the Berlin Wall down to seek a Socialist merger between East and West. He also reveals how religious summits have been held in Russia with Western religious leaders in getting them on the 'peace' plan, for the main purpose of pacifying the West towards disarmament. (Tell me that hasn't worked today!). Another matter he covers is how the Soviets planned as part of their long-range strategy to use Islamic terrorism against the West!

4) "Tragedy And Hope", by Carroll Quigley. Quigley was professor of history at Georgetown University (Bill Clinton studied under him there, and endorsed him). Quigley wrote this work in the early 1960's. He had to sue his publisher in 1966 to find out why they stopped printing his book. He found out the publishers had destroyed the printing plates, and said his book must have said something the Insiders didn't want known. 1300 pages and a hard read, but it's packed. Quigley claims he has been allied with what some have called the eastern seaboard 'Establishment' for most of his life, and that for two years he was allowed to see their secret records. His main argument was that the secret history has been a significant factor, enough to be known, and he didn't see why they wanted to keep it hidden. It really shows how vain Quigley is, because in it he reveals the connection of the British Round Table groups with the American Council On Foreign Relation (CFR), and the connection with the Rhodes Scholarship Trust founded in memory of Cecil B. Rhodes, the British merchant who owned gold and diamond assets in Africa.

Continued in Part 2...

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

at_the_Cross,

I hear what you're saying. The Rev.13:2 verse is a direct relation to the kings and kingdoms Message from Daniel 7. It gives the 'type' of that first beast in verse 1 as a world type system over many countries and peoples, just like the old empires of Persia, Greece, which is explained further into Daniel 8.

But there are two 'beasts' mentioned in Rev.13. The first is a nation enveloping system, and the other, the "another beast" starting at verse 11, is a particular king or world leader, the Antichrist. Revelation 17, which you referred to, gives the explanation of those Rev.13 symbols...

Rev 17:7-16
7   And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Because there two 'beasts' mentioned back in Rev.13, one must differentiate between the two within this. The "another beast" who appears like a lamb, but spake as a dragon, is the "another beast" and is an entity. And that entity ascends out of the bottomless pit. Who then is that? None other than Satan. Who is already been judged and sentenced to perish? None other than Satan. He is the beast that was, because the ten horned beast system of Rev.12:3-4 that only had "seven crowns" instead of ten, was his system of old when he first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. He yet is, because he won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The seven heads relate to verse 10 about seven kings. That's speaking against about a world system, the first beast of Rev.13:1-2, like old Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. Because the latter day king is to only have power for a short space, that refers to the latter day Antichrist's reign, just prior to Christ's second coming. That's the 7th.

11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

After the thousand years of Rev.20, Satan is to be released again to go tempt the nations. That's the eighth fulfillment, and then goes into the lake of fire. That timing is related to Isaiah 24:21-23.

12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14   These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This means the ten kings, or ten horns, receive power with the "another beast" when he comes. The "one hour" is that "short space", or tribulation timing.

15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The waters, or sea of Rev.13:1 means peoples and nations, i.e., the whole world. It's about a one world system over the whole earth.

16   And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(KJV)

The "whore" is a symbol for false religion under the Antichrist.

Rev 18:7
7   How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."
(KJV)

She claims not to be a widow, because she is already married. But she will marry the wrong one, even the Antichrist who will be allowed to put himself in the place of God for a short time. That is the great falling away Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2, as many will not wait for Christ's true time of return later.

dp

That would appear to cover infants and little children that didn't have the chance to know the difference between good and evil, but what about the adults that died in their sins of the nations in OT times that didn't hear? Per Paul's Epistles, The Gospel was not yet preached to them in OT times, but was only given as oracles to Israel.

1 Pet 3:18-20
18   For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19   By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20   Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)

Verse 18 is very specific with, "...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" which continues the subject with, "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;".

That is not meant in the fleshy sense. Christ literally went to those souls who had died in their sins and were in Satan's prison, preached The Gospel to them and led many of them out. The OT prophets spoke of that event (see Isaiah 24:21-22; Isaiah 42:6-7; Zechariah 9:11).

1 Pet 4:6   For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
(KJV)

The apostle Paul said it was his hope there will be both a resurrection of the 'just' and the 'unjust' (Acts 24:15). His hope in that was that more would be saved later, after flesh death. In 1 Cor.5, that believer who was having intercourse with his own mother was put to death, in hopes that his 'spirit' might be saved in the Day of The Lord Jesus (i.e., Christ's future thousand years reign).

1 Cor 5:4-5
4   In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5   To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)

Many love to steer around those Scripture examples because it goes against the particular liberal creeds of men's traditions taught them. No matter what those creeds teach, per God's Word there will be some saved during Christ's future thousand years on earth. Simply because a "first resurrection" is mentioned in Rev.20 that automatically points to at least one more resurrection into Christ Jesus later. That 1 Corinthians 5:5 verse points directly to that (and the number 5 is a Biblical number symbol for God's Grace).

Paul's deeper teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection is too often missed because of man's creeds. Within that Paul explained we all shall put on a Heavenly image body, but not all will have the soul condition of "immortality" unto Christ. The Greek word for "mortal" in 1 Cor.15:53-54 means 'liable to die', and that's talking about the soul state some will still be in after the 'change' at Christ's second coming on the "last trump".

dp

Rev 20:5
5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Who are those dead?

Matt 8:11-12
11   And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12   But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Matt 22:12-13
12   And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13   Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Matt 25:30
30   And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Who then are these in the 'outer darkness'? Are Christ's elect priests and kings only to rule over other believers? Remember what Jesus said to the Church of Philadelphia...

Rev 3:9
9   Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

Those of the synagogue of Satan refer to Christ's enemies on earth. They still are in power in the world today, and they certainly have not bowed the knee to our Lord Jesus, yet, and won't until Jesus returns. Because Jesus says He will make those come to worship Him at the feet of His elect (those He said this to), that's set for the Millennium timing. Those are the type Rev.20:5 is speaking about, for they are spiritually dead and not literally asleep.

This is what happens at Christ's second coming...

Matt 25:31-33
31   When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32   And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33   And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(KJV)

The outer darkness examples our Lord Jesus gave in The Gospel are about that place of separation on the left, and that's where those dead will be during His thousand years reign with His elect. Those are the ones the rod of iron is meant for; it's not for those of His servants on the right hand. It means those dead who lived not again is meant in the spiritually dead sense, not the physical flesh dead sense.

This is the type Jesus was speaking about with that dead analgoy...

Matt 23:26-28
26   Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28   Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
(KJV)

That's the type Jesus was talking about when He declared He would make those of the synagogue of Satan come to worship at the feet of His elect per Rev.3:9. Those dead are going to be aware during the Millennium, and they're going to be under Christ's "rod of iron". There will be discipline. That place of separation Jesus called the outer darkness represents, during His reign on earth, the same type of separation He described in Luke 16 about the beggar Lazarus and the rich man, with a fixed border between the two. That Luke 16 description was not meant as metaphor.

dp

If that Isaiah prophecy is a "ensample" for the latter days, then God is not going to allow Islam to dominate the world. That should have been seen with how easy it was to overthrow Saddam's reign, and the weight of power the West has played in forwarding the Palestinian state idea. The globalists want to meld all peoples with their religions into one pot.

dp

Interesting...

The militants of Islam are really nervous about the events going on in Iraq today. It appears that one is comparing the state of democracy happening in Iraq today with what happened to historical Turkey. The militant leaders of Iran and Syria are really gettin' edgey about the possibility of a free democratic state existing near them to turn their own slave subjects away from radical Islam. The militants seem to think they can escape the plan of a ten-horned one-world government which God is allowing in the latter days. They haven't figured out that many of us in the West don't want to be under that ten-horned beast kingdom either, yet it's part of God's Plan for the latter days. "...Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev.13:4).


Isa 21:13   The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.
14   The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.
15   For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.
16   For thus hath the Lord said unto me, 'Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail:
17   And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it.'
(KJV)

That prophesy in Isaiah 21 was about the historical fall of Kedar (Jer.49). But within that Chapter we are told about the fall of Babylon, and the travail with child analogies, and the coming Day of The LORD (i.e., Christ's future thousand years reign on earth with His elect - Rev.20). That Isaiah 21 prophecy serves as an 'ensample' for what's happening with the radicals of Ishmael today.

dp

What a mess those Pastors are in. All those claimed leaders in the Churches are going to do is to reveal their true heart and belief to others in the Church, which is a good thing, because then it'll be easy to recognize those of them who have fallen away from Christ. Many of them don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin anymore, and some of them don't even believe in The GOD of The Bible but in a god of 'forces', yet they are still leading Churches.

There is no such thing as a "separation of Church and state" clause in our U.S. Constitution. The evolutionists can not legally push out the public school teaching of ideas that reveal evolution has several doubtful problems, that is if Constitutional law is followed in the courts, which often is where the problem is. The fact is that the majority who want to prevent the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools are evolutionists that also happen to be atheists. There are many scientists that believe in God, but still recognize evolution to a certain degree, and that most likely because if they don't somewhat agree, they'll be castigated by their scientific collegues.

Worldnetdaily had an article this week of how 500 scientists signed a letter acknowledging their disbelief in the theory of evolution. So, what the atheists are really scared of right now, is how that many scientists are now moving away from evolution because of later discoveries like DNA research, etc., that destroys the idea of random design.

dp

If hearing The Gospel of Jesus Christ is required for Salvation, which I believe It is (Rom.10:13-14), then those who died in Old Testament times, and as infants before having their chance to hear, still must be accounted for. And they will be, as God said He is no respecter of persons, and desires that none should perish (2 Pet.3:9; Matt.18:14).

We as Christians need to be able to answer this question, because it's one that non-believing atheists ask a lot. And if we say everyone that was ever born in the flesh has heard The Gospel and had a chance to believe or not believe, then we go against God's written Word about the time before our Lord Jesus came to die on the cross, a time when The Gospel was not yet open to the 'nations' (also see Rom.16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27; Ephesians 1:9-10 and Ephesians 3). Many of old Israel knew through God's prophets, (Heb.11; Gal.3), but the majority of the Gentiles didn't know yet, and many of them died before Christ's first coming. A lot of the non-believers know that, and that's why they ask this type of question. And there is simple but hard Scripture proof in answer to it, though too many Churches don't care to go that deep in The Word.

In Christ Jesus,
dp

Dear Supercryptid,

Our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin shall be forgiven men, except the unforgiveable sin against The Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31).

As said in some of the above posts, it's important to keep that verse in context of the Messages within the Book of Hebrews. (I'm going to use Paul as the writer of Hebrews in this, though I realize many scholars disagree on that point, and others here may also).

Note Messages like at the end of Hebrews 5 about the "strong meat" vs. the milk. He (I think Paul) was rebuking the Hebrews about not coming to the level of understanding in God's Word they should have been at, since God first gave Israel the "oracles" involving His Plan of Salvation through The Savior Jesus Christ. Those Jews should have understood those Messages about the change to a better Covenant through Christ Jesus, and ready to see its fulfilling right before their eyes, because The Gospel was first written of in the Old Testament they had possession of.

So after the rebuke about the 'milk' understanding vs. the "strong meat" learning, he continues in Hebrews 6...

Heb 6:1-9
1   Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2   Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3   And this will we do, if God permit.
4   For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

At that time in history, the orthodox Jews were vehemently against Christianity and The Gospel. Instead the corrupt Pharisee system ruled over them in the seat of Moses, as the priesthood had become corrupt through the Babylon captivity of the "house of Judah" (hinted at within Ezra and Nehemiah, and histories by the Jewish historian Josephus). That system still sought to be justified by following The Law, religious dogma, animal sacrifices and ceremonial ritual, as it still desires today under the name of Judaism. So that is what those Jews Paul was speaking to came out of, believing on The Savior Jesus Christ. And to fall away from Christ after having come out of that, having been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, then to go back into that old Phariseeism of unbelief would be like crucifying Christ all over again.

Heb.6:7   For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8   But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9   But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(KJV)

The thorns and briers are symbols for the fruit of the workers of iniquity, those who follow darkness. Those symbols were given by our Lord Jesus in His parable of the sower (Matt.13). Those symbols are linked to the parable of the "bramble" in Judges 9, when the 'trees' (people) finally asked the bramble (symbol of Satan) to be king over them, and the bramble said only if they would trust in his shadow. A bramble thorn bush doesn't cast much of a shadow of protection, so it was all a lie, showing their mistrust and misplaced faith (see also Luke 6:44 about the trees and fruit). So the comparison of good fruit and thorns made in those verses are about God's blessings depending on who and what is followed. The thorns will be burned, thus showing in this what those Jews would be going back into if they fell away from Christ to go back into their old ways of unbelief.

Heb 10:26-30
26   For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27   But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That warning Paul gave in the above Hebrews 6 example goes with this one. Note the idea of Christ's adversaries being devoured in God's judgment is mentioned here again. This goes with that idea of falling away from Christ and wanting to come back being like crucifying Christ all over again. So these examples help us to understand better a type of wilfull sin he was talking to them about, which is about unbelief, denying The Savior and the heavenly gift, etc., in order to turn back to the ways of this world among the children of darkness (thorns and briers to be burned in the fire).

Heb.10:28    He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29   Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30   For we know Him That hath said, "Vengeance belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people."
(KJV)

Those who worked iniquity and wickedness in Old Testament times refused the Old Covenant, and they died without mercy for that. That again shows us the level and type of sin he is talking about. So the question is, have you "trodden under foot the Son of God"? I don't think so, because your words don't show that. Have you counted the blood of the Covenant "an unholy thing"? Again, I don't see that in anything you expressed. Have you done spite unto the Spirit of grace? I would say no, you haven't done that either. And that's the level of willful sin being spoken about there, not little habits we fall into that we have a hard time breaking because of our flesh weakness, while repenting and trying to get back on track in following The LORD.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave