Allinall,

When you said   "ALL scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."  

You are quoting Paul who was talking to Timothy who had known the scriptures from his youth--Paul says this in the paragraph right before.

2 Timothy 15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."


While I do believe Paul's words are inspired and God breathed, a person has to be an idiot to think Paul was referring to his own words when he wrote that to Timothy.

It was years and years after Paul's death that Paul's words became "the scriptures"  While Paul was preaching people were searching the Old Testiment and Paul in his letter was referring to the Old Testiment when he wrote "All Scriptures"

Of course, in our wisdom and knowledge we like to add all sorts of meanings to words where the original writer had no idea we would add those meanings to his words.

Peace

Hi Ollie,

I agree with you on the wide range of folks responsible for abortion.  

I want to admit that I'm not on the churchianically correct position on abortion because of two reasons that I haven't been able to get passed.  My first reason is that I think in our nation today if abortions were suddenly illegal it would be like the DEA fighting the war on drugs only much worse because pregnant women would be involved.  I think it would be much harder for pro-life people to help in situations--over all I am just scared about our ability to legislate and in-ability to enforce what we legislate as a group of voters.  My second reason is that I'm not convinced of when life really starts, but I'm sure by six months it's a life and if a person wanted to have an abortion, six months is TOO LATE!  You snooze, you loose your right to choose!   I would want them to do it quickly--not wait an exta day!  Just do it quickly.  That sounds so much like Christ's words to Judas, doesn't it?  

What I want to do is have a campaign that holds men and boys accountable for the intentions toward females.  In every aspect of females and males relating, I think that men need to be held accountable if their intentions aren't noble.  They need to know that it's wrong and INCORRECT to develop all sorts of strategies to try to figure out how to get their way with a girl or a woman.  They only have certain intentions and they aren't noble and EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW IT'S WRONG and EVIL and even thinking about a woman better be with noble intentions or they're EVIL.  I wish we could have a national campaign about that and then always end the un-noble intentions with an abortion.  Because essentially that's really what happens.  If we wait around for a pregnancy to happen, it's kind of late in the game for pro-lifers.  I think we need to take action right where the seeds of lust are planted that sprout and produce fruit--dead fruit if it ends up in abortion.

Let's hold men and boys accountable for their thoughts and intentions toward women and girls.  I think this would be a smart move.  

I think if it gets to the stage where people are talking about "protection" Even then it's too late.  I think the abortion issue needs to be fought on the ground where the seeds of lust are planted in people's brains.  

I think women and young girls need to be armed with the sword of the spirit in asking "What are this man's intentions toward me??"  Very often I come accross men who try to give me all this time and attention, and I used to think it was so nice to have until I realized most of the intentions of these men are far less than noble.  I think we should be on a mission of convicting men of their intentions.  Save lives, homes, and families and futures that way--hit the ground where the seeds are planted and do not let them grow into death crops.

Another way I think an impact can be made this abortion issue.  Hit it where it starts.  So many people take their stand on the abortion issue based on the idea that we have no power over men's intentions.  Start the war at the intentions.  

I get so tired of hearing that lust is okay.  and that making all sorts of moves toward a woman with only one intention in mind is kosher and then saying the abortion issue is not related to this behavior.  The abortion issue starts at men's intentions toward women.

See, the way I see it, when people say, "Baby Killers are EVIL" boys and men in general don't feel like they have anything to do with that.  They think about women--(and of course the one they brought home last night isn't one of them) and abortion doctors.  

If the focus was on the intention toward a woman IS EVIL if your intentions are not noble, then boys and men would know that this specifically refers to themselves and their behavior.  At least the audience would be larger and thereby more effective.

Peace

                     

We hear a lot about "pro-choice" from political candidates. We, too, want to avoid "legislating values and claiming there are moral absolutes."

Ethics is a personal choice, not a political or religious concern. That's why we've established "Planned Bank Robbery." Now, we personally don't approve of bank robbery, but we don't want to inflict our morals on anyone else either.

It must be a personal decision of each individual.

Education is the key since our studies reveal that 99 percent of senior high teens know that banks are robbed. But it is shocking the number of teens who don't know how banks are robbed. Or even how to load a .357 magnum, drive a get-away car, or demand, "Give me all of your unmarked, non-sequentially-ordered twenty-dollar bills." Young people need to know the wide range of career options available to them.

And we're also concerned that a lot of young people are robbing banks without proper protection. Personal injury and irresponsibility are much greater crimes than actually knocking over the First National. At Planned Bank Robbery we don't approve of unauthorized withdrawals. But we do want to offer--free of charge--bullet-proof vests, ski masks, and if necessary a get-away car. This is the compassionate thing to do!

And young people who need some extra cash from their local 7-11 shouldn't have to get their parent's permission to obtain this protection. If that were the case, hundreds more teens would be needlessly injured by narrow-minded parents who are trying to inflict their morality on their children.

Again, let me emphasize that Planned Bank Robbery does not condone or encourage grand larceny. We only want to stress it is a personal decision. We're "pro-choice."

+ + +

Seriously, the Roman Catholic Church is also pointing out the hypocrisy of pro-abortion candidates who are hiding behind equally silly reasoning.

George Weigel, director of the Catholic Studies program at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C., reminds legislators and candidates that "pro-choice Catholic" is an offensive oxymoron.

Weigel writes, "Abortion, as the bishops have consistently taught, is a matter of the fifth commandment . . . 'Thou shalt not kill.'' Abortion involves taking the life of an indisputably human creature, endowed with an inalienable right to life. That is a serious public matter, not a private choice, because protecting innocent life is one of the first requirements of justice in any decent society.

"Another point of confusion is the common belief that Supreme Court decisions are irreversible. Just as the Court was wrong when it decided in the 1857 Dred Scott case that African-Americans were legal non-persons, so the Roe v. Wade and Casey v. Planned Parenthood decisions were also mistaken. Legislators have an obligation to state publicly that the Court got it wrong." He argues that legislators must work "to reverse the Court's wrongheaded abortion decisions."

Weigel also challenges the claim that the Church's pro-life teaching is "a sectarian position which cannot be imposed on a pluralistic society." He points out that the church has never tried to force everyone in the United States to abstain from meat on Fridays.

However, he writes, " The Church's pro-life teaching is something that can be engaged seriously by anyone. You don't have to believe that there are seven sacraments to deal with this, you don't have to believe in the primacy of the bishop of Rome to engage this position. You don't even have to believe in God to engage this [pro-life] position because it's a position rooted in basic embryology and in basic logic, and anybody can engage that."

It's not anyone's "right" to take life. And it's not even a woman's choice involving her body. It's a separate life with separate circulatory system, often a different blood type, and 50 percent of the time a different gender.

The "pro-choice" candidates need to make a true choice. "Are you for or against abortion?" Quit hiding behind "Planned Bank Robbery" arguments.

(c) 2004 James N. Watkins

Hi All,

You know, there are women who I feel terrible about.  Their husband is like an additional child.  He brings home the paycheck AFTER he stops at the bar.  Any chance to run away and escape responsibility WILL be taken advantage of.  The wife has to hold the man to his responsibilities.  She's got to make every decision in the house--plus, she has an additional child who has full control of all the household's money plus a driver's license.  He does not take a lead in the household.  None.  He thinks he's a good father because the kids love him best because he's their best friend--he never scolds or disciplines.  The disciplinarian is the mom.  It's a terrible terrible situation.  In no way am I ever going to begin to say this is the way things should be.    

The mom has to carry the whole weight.  Then there's also families where the mom is some sort of lazy person that doesn't know how to use a broom.  You go over to their house and there's not a full square inch of carpeting without some sort of grime or crud on it.  It's disgusting.  And the husband is no where to be found until the paycheck is gone.  And there's another baby on the way.  This world isn't a right place.  I do agree with the Word in the way that God ordained families to be.  But in this world, it's not always that way.  People that need help need help in the place that they are at.

Thought I would point that out.  

My point is, I'm not arguing with the scriptures, but I think that women in communities make a big difference in places where people need role models and guidance.  Women lead by the Holy Spirit can make a difference in many people's lives.  

So, I guess I'm saying these things because its not about arguing what the ideal thing is, its about living in the world.  We can sit in our lofty places and say all kinds of words, but what we want to do is LIVE OUT HIS LOVE.  We want to LIVE OUT what we know.  We want to interpret the scriptures with our lives and not just with our minds.

Peace

   Wouldn't that be funny if when we finally get to heaven and find out our names in Christ, one of us is named, "Bible thumbing fanatic who blatantly classifies sheep."

LOL

Alright, I have a sick sense of humor.  

Peace

Hi all,

So many folks complain that when people come to Christ they go on sinning.

I complain that when people come to Christ, they go on Judging.  

Where's the love?  Where's the trust in God?

The SIN that we are supposed to turn from is the sin that says, "I don't need God."  The Pharasees are the ones that don't need God.  If a homosexual decides he needs God, and he comes to Christ--he's repented of the unpardonable sin.  The unpardanable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit says to love God and to need God.  That is the sin that people turn from when they turn from sin--it's the unpardonable sin--the sin that says they don't need God.

When a person accepts Christ as their savior, they've turned from the sin that sends them to hell which is separation from Christ.  Being apart from God is hell.  When a person turns to God and become united with God, they are no longer apart from God.

Of course, there are hundreds of other sins, but coming to Jesus and acknowledging that you are unworthy and needing Him to help You overcome other sins, is actually what saves.

You might take note that the Pharasees weren't homosexuals and they went to hell anyway, because they rejected Christ.

Homosexuals that accept Christ will inheret eternal life.  That title Homosexual no longer applies to them.  We ARE required to turn from sin, I will acknowledge that.  But the sin of condeming the homosexual after they have come to Christ is pretty much equivalent of being the homosexual.  Or actually much worse, because what it says when you condemn a homosexual after they come to Christ, what that says about the condemner is that they DON'T TRUST CHRIST TO SAVE SINNERS.  If you can't TRUST CHRIST TO SAVE SINNERS, then maybe you haven't trusted Christ to save yourself.  No wonder so many don't have any living water.  They're still trying to earn salvation by their own works.  It is when you totally realize you can never do it on your own, that you understand the redemptive power of Christ.  If you don't understand that, then maybe you aren't saved and WORSE off then the homosexual who IS saved.

Once we know that they know that we know that homosexuality is SIN, God has to give him or her the strength to overcome that sin.  It may be a gradual process which may  never happen without the aid and support of other Christians.  

You know, I have so many friends that claim Christianity.  One claims she's a Christian, but she can't stop gambling.  Another claims he's a Christian but he can't stop drinking.  Another claims he's a Chrisitian, but she can't stop smoking.  Another claims she's a Christian, but she can't forgive her husband and is going to be divorced.  Another claims she's a Christian but she can't stop her snobery.  Another claims she's a Christian, but she can't stop her greed.  Another claims he's a Christian, but he has an anger management problem.  Another claims he's a Christian, but she cannot stand her neighbor and wishes her neighbor would move away.  Another claims she's a Christian, but she's got millions and she doesn't want to feed the poor with it.  Another claims she's a Christian, but don't wait around for her to tell you the latest gosssip because she'll tell you.  Another claims she's a Christian, but she hasn't stopped dating non-Christians yet.

I could go on and on and on.

The point is none of us has fully turned from all our sins.  Why do we feel it's right to pick and choose what sins we're going to make a big deal about.  Pick out a category of people and condemn them for this or that reason.

Before Christ came there were hundreds, probably thousands of teachers of the law.  It didn't save any souls to have all those teachers of the law.  Christ came to give us living water.  We have to TRUST that this living water is going to be able to do it's work.

I'm finding out that the worst thing that happens when you befriend someone that claims Christianity and then don't change, is that you have to keep on loving them.  It's hard!!!!!!  It's hard to love sinners.  I for one would like to be released from the burden of loving sinners.  I mean   folks who sin I can't stand.  It's true, we can admit there's folks whose sin we can't stand.  But we have to acknowledge that we are sinful in not loving the sinner.  

It's so much easier to condemn the sinner then to sit around and love them.  But that's what the Pharasees did.  And we that claim to be Christ followers need to behave a wee bit differently than the Pharasees.  Don't we?

Peace

[UDGE]

John 13

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I've see so many hundreds of thousands of times people think Christ's words are "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you JUDGE one another."

Does anyone, at the end of the day sit around thinking, "Lord all day today I have not sinned."

I doubt it.  And yet, if they didn't in fact sin all day, but then thought a thought like then, then their sin would be self-righteousness.  None of us makes it through the day without sinning.

To stand around and sit around and insistently judge each other is not how Christ wants us to show the world that we are his.

Everyone seems to think that if they don't take a judging posture on things, if they don't make judgments about anybody and everybody, then they are not in Christ.  For example, if you hang out with a sinner and you don't sit in judgment on them 24 hours a day, you think that you do not belong to Christ.  

It's enough to know what the laws are so we can measure OURSELVES against them and then pursue our God in trying to please Him in what WE can do internally and externally.  But we do not please God when we sit in judgment and condemnation on others.  If they ask us for guidence, we can show them the scriptures--even if they don't outright ask in a way that says, "Dude, I need guidence."  But I do think it's wrong to sit around in the judgment seat and sit around in the condemner's seat.  We take on Satan's job when we put ourselve in the position where we have to sit around and pick out the sins of others.  

Christ Like Behavior:
Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

People that sit around judging and pointing out sins are like this:

Ezekiel 33:32
Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.

We have to have love and care of sinners because:


Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety­nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

In our patience with sinners we can encourage ourselves with:


Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."[ 8:12 Jer. 31:31­34]

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
John 8

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

And when you feel like the world is so full of sin that you must sit around and feel sorry for yourself, then remember, YOU STILL CAN'T throw stones because Jesus says, "If anyone of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Hello, none of us are without sin.

I'm not saying homosexuality is right.  I'm saying condemning them is just as bad as being a homosexual.

It's not by how we judge each other that makes us Christ's diciples, but how we love each other.

I think that none of us can love without the Holy Spirit.  We can have the law and know the law and teach the law and try to apply it in our lives, but without the Holy Spirit, we're Pharasees.  All of us.  Because in order to have eternal life, we need the LIVING WATER.  The law can never save us.

All the folks that are focusing on the law would probably much better of BEING a homosexual, because then they would know their  true need of a Savior.  Then they would understand compassion and just why Christ had to die for our sin.

It's worse to be a Pharasee then to be gay.

Peace

[were]

We are all born sinners,

1st Corinthians 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you care for my interpretation of this text, ONCE you are washed by the blood of the lamb, sanctified so to speak, Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ--YOU CAN NO LONGER HOLD THESE TITLES.  You ARE Christ's

So, there IS no such thing as a homosexual preist BECAUSE God takes that title away and covers you with His Title.  You are God's.  You belong to God and He has taken away the shame and any names people might call you.

You can therefore say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but those names no longer apply to me!""

So, even if you don't find that scripture where you think it says that folks are born homosexuals, we do know we are born sinners, but when we are washed in the blood of the lamb, we are no longer to be called sinners.

And that's the way I see it.

Peace

   Women are saved because of the cross, not saved in childbirth.  The principle of this matter is that Paul was making a point and getting around to it.  I bet if he would have said, "I'm blue today" referring to his mood, there would be a whole cult of poeple that claimed Paul's skin was blue on a certain day.    They might even attribute holiness to people with trouble getting oxigen to their skin because it makes their skin turn blue.  

I can see it now.  Whole groups of people starting a new religion saying "Only men are saved by the gospel, and women are saved by childbirth.  It says it right there in Paul's own words!!"  

The reason why anyone agrees that we are all saved by the cross is essentially that's the whole Bible saying it.  You can't take a little phrase here and there and say otherwise.  And yet that's what folks are doing with this whole women teaching in church issue.  Ignore the "neither male nor female" and the Holy female prophets of old, and the Leaders like Debra--because of a few lines here and there.

The mere idea that women can't teach in church is so obsurd, that for thousands of years, women have been able to teach Sunday school.  BUT if you insist on using Paul's words exactly the way they're being interpreted by some, teaching sunday school by females is against Paul's commandments.    And mind you some people hold that every word in the bible is a commandment, so they try not to read the whole thing.

Saved by the cross, not by childbearing.

I don't think God acknowledges our man-made divisions.  They are not from Him.

We who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.  We who believe we're right and everyone else is wrong most likely have issues of pride.  Do you think God favors the know-it-alls or the ones who are humble in understanding there's quite a bit they could never possibly know.

Lean on God with all of your heart, don't lean on Your own understanding.

I'm pretty sure those that lean on their own understanding aren't leaning on the right stuff.  They may be the only "unsaved" in all of the denominations, and exactly the ones who keep the denomiations from being One in Christ.  Who is it that does that carving the divisions?  The ones that know ALL their stuff is ALL right and everyone else's stuff is AAAALLLLL wrong.  There's even bloodshed over some of this stuff in other countries.  Bloodshed because some of us are SOOOOOOOO  Right and the Others of us are SOOOOOOOOO wrong.  for that there has been blood shed.  Does anyone really think that if they have to argue and hate their neighbor because they're so right and their neighbor is so wrong, do they look like they're saved?

I would be scared if I had enough pride to believe I knew it all.  I would be scared to think that I had enough understanding to hate my neighbor for being so wrong.  God doesn't call us to hate people because they're so wrong.  He calls us to love our enemies, and it makes sense that he does because among the denominations, some of us think we are enemies.

Peace

 

Is Christ Going to die for your sins, or did He ALREADY die for your sins.  And since He DIED for your sins before you were born, weren't ALL your sins future sins?  

Brother or Sister, all of your sins were future sins at the time that Christ died.  They were all covered then.  The ones that you haven't even thought about doing have already been paid for.

Peace

Whenever there's a spirit of this world that wants to have it's way, it will find scriptures to justify its actions.  The Pharisees were able to justify at least in their own minds, crucifying Christ, and they  used the scriptures to do it.  Using scriptures to get your way is not new under the sun.

     

Don't tell the desire to rule over someone isn't of the spirits of this world and don't tell me there aren't men that use the scriptures to justify their desires toward these actions.

The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.

But God SAYS MEN NEED HELPERS.  Not slaves.  mean are leaders of the homes, but they need Helpers there too.  Helpers that help in the actual leadership, the way God orignially intended in the Garden of Eden BEFORE the curse.

Like I've said before, men filled with the Holy Spirit are able to make the distinction by the discerning of the spirits.  You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.  Unless of course, the temptation to have their own way comes along, then they'll wip out the scriptures to justify having their own, same way anyone does when they want their own way.

 

I'm not knowledgable about ANY of Weslyian or title's they give themselves that come from Men's names.  I don't think that God acknowledges them at all.

But I DO KNOW that women are not saved in childbirth.

   Take that scripture and run with it, the way that folks take other scriptures and run with them.  It's not the truth.

Peace

I think if there were ten times more people with your opinion that we should send gay people to the moon, God Himself, would have to ordain people with the tendency to be Gay, just so someone will have compassion on the gay people and evangelize so that gay people will get to hear God's word.  It is for THE LOVE OF GOD that Christ died.  So, that sinners come to know the Love of God.  So, that they might turn from their sins, not by turning from sin, but by turning TO God.  

Christ's main priority and the reason for His death was to show people God's love.  God did NOT say, "See those gay people down there, I think I better get a bunch of people to call themselves Christians so they can tell those gay people they're sinners."

If a person says there is no sin in them, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.  At least each one of us and every one of us has to acknowledge we are sinful.  And if we stand around saying that gay people are sinful, we might be able to notice there's by some strange coincidence a common aspect in all of us--that WE ALL have a tendency to sin.  

I think that our outward signs on sin do not have an indication of what our inward heart is like.

[I am a Christian because I have seen the love of God LIVED OUT in the lives of people WHO KNOW HIM. The Word has become flesh and I have encountered God in the people who have manifested (in many "unreasonable" ways) His presense--a presence that is more than convincing--it is a presence that is compellling. I am a Christian, not because someone explained the nuts and bolts of Christianity to me, but because there were people who were willing to BE the nuts and bolts. Through their obedience to the truth and not necessarily through their explanation of it, they held it together so that I could experience it and be compelled to obey]

   "judgment and wrath He poored out on Sodom, Mercy and grace he gave us at the cross, I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that our God is an awesome God."

All you Rich Mullins fans out there--the thing Rich  complained about was folks quoting his songs instead of scriptures   . . .but I couldn't help it.  

Hey how about all those pastors that interpret the scriptures to enforce the curse, "your desire will be toward your husband and he will rule over you" instead of understanding that in the beginning it wasn't God's will for anyone to rule over each other, but their desire be toward the Lord?

If "Sin is Sin" like people try to say, then those pastors that preach "The Curse" is God's way and it's natural and right, are just as ungodly as the gay pastors interpreting the scriptures so they can say that their own homosexual lifestyle is natural and right--justify their own sinful desires--desires to RULE OVER someone in the case of all the pastors that preach that "The Curse" is God's way--aren't any better than pastors that preach whatever they want to justify.  The thing is IT FEELS RIGHT in THEIR OWN EYES they find scriptures to justify their actions and guilt other people into doing the same or at least accepting what they do.

A righteous person once wrote:  "I am a Christian because I have seen the love of God LIVED OUT in the lives of people WHO KNOW HIM.  The Word has become flesh and I have encountered God in the people who have manifested (in many "unreasonable" ways) His presense--a presence that is more than convincing--it is a presence that is compellling.  I am a Christian, not because someone explained the nuts and bolts of Christianity to me, but because there were people who were willing to BE the nuts and bolts.  Through their obedience to the truth and not necessarily through their explanation of it, they held it together so that I could experience it and be compelled to obey."

There will always be preachers out there preaching this and that.  But folks learn about God through how we behave.