You're not really going to claim that a faith that is dead can save someone, are you?

No I am, simply going to say that, some receive a little bit of faith, while others a whole lot of faith it is only according to measure of the gift of faith given by God.

And at this level, some can't even accept that God has saved them, without them having to do something for the free gift of eternal life, its almost insulting to the Spirit of Grace as I see it.

But here allow me to give you a verse.

Rom 12
3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;


But God Bless, as you continue to study His word

Petro

[To another faith by the same Spirit;]

Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will.

So we have a choice in whether we repent or not? I can decide? If it involves my will, I can choose it or reject it. If God forces me to do it, it doesn’t involve the will.

Your ability to choses is not what you think it is, you think you chose to believe in Christ, when in fact this is not so.

The only think you can do is agree with God, you are a sinner, headed for an eternity in hell, and only when you come to this conclusion, will God give the gift of faith, to this individual.

This is a mystery

If your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false. If your view entails looking at 2 Peter and saying "It makes no sense". Your view is false.

It is nonsense to say everyone must account for all scripture, obviouly you can't account for all scripture, since the just shall live by faith, from faith unto faith, if one could account for all scripture, there would be no need for faith, since his walk would be by sight.  This is why, you can't see this, you think, only when you see it plainly that only then it must be of god, so you allow yourself to be carried about by every wind of doctrine, including those that get regurgitated.

That's it. i'm done.  God's blessing to you, Petro. I sincerely wish you all God's best.
Jim

Well, I wouldn't want you to leave, with at least giving you a verse.

I suppose I shouldn't have saved it for you till now, but nevertheless here it is;


1 Cor 12
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


I am sure verse 9 above, means nothing to you, but unfortunately, it states, the opposite of what you want scripture to teach you.

But what can I say, it is God the Spirit that gives the gifts according to His will not ours.

God Bless, anyhow...

Petro

["unbelief and hardness of heart"]

posted by sonofaslan as reply #
Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have no choice?

Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
and the second,
That those who had been elected and predestinated, from before the foundations of the world (the sheep), should hear and believe.  No one knows who they are, I dare  to say,  they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can,  in hopes of snaring one of them.
[quoted]
Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

On what basis does Jesus criticize these cities if they had no choice?

Note, what He did in these cities;  "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida,  didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that,  had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,

But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their  "unbelief and hardness of heart"

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can they be commanded to repent if they have no choice?

There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period.
The natural man, reasons in himself;  Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will.  
"The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
This is a good verse;  God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


How can God command all men to repent, when we have no choice in whether to repent or not? Ared you saying God commands us to do things while making it impossible that we do them?

I am not saying anything other than what scripture says;
Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will. and scripture states:
Joining a church, shaking the priests hand, and giving a testimony, nor being wtare baptized has yet to save anyone.

God who knows the heart, works in every man he draws to the truth of His Word, to will His will, and do of his good pleasure, it occurs even while yet in unbelif.
Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

{quote]
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How can God be willing that all men come to repentance if He chooses who will and who will not repent? Does God contradict His own will?

This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says;  "It is He who grants repentance"
This is plain (Acts 11:18, 2 Pet 3:9), He elects, predestinates, and judges because He is Soveriegn.....

There are many more, Petro. I do not reject your passages. I just do not interpret them the way you do. I put those passages together with these passages and see them as being complementary. God grants us repentance as the means of salvation.

I can't disgree with you stated above, He grants repentance to whom He wills to do grant it to, this plain as daylight.

Does this mean we have no choice whether to repent or not? No, but it means if God had not granted it, repentance would effect nothing.

Well, I am amazed you see this, if He does not grant repentance, how is works going to do obtain anything for you?, or Baptism, or observing sacramentals, or membership in an institution, etc.

We choose whether to repent, thus takingf hold of the gift, or to not repent, thus rejecting the gift.

I am not sure what you see, here, if you elaborated on this simplistic answer perhaps, I could comment, the gift is not in view herein, at this point.
The very Gospel which calls for repentance produces it.  This clearly seeing in the experience of the people of Nineveh (Jonah 3:5-10), when thewy heard the preaching of the Word of God, they truned to God, not seeking a gift, but seeking to be forgiven, because they believed the message.
The same is true of the men unto whom Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:37-38), they were pricked in their heart, note at verse 38, they new nothing of a gift.  You know about a gift because you have the luxury of possessing a bible.
 

If you have a different view of these passages and others where repentance is commanded, please share it

.

Different views where repentance is commanded??

I don't have any different views other than those I have expressed in accordance to what the Word teaches.

My views won't change the truth, anyhow..




Blessings,  
Petro

I answered your question, Petro.

The answer to your question re: James is that faith without works saves no one. So the answer is no, his faith cannot save him. This is exactly the same answer James gives. faith without works is dead.

Well, there you go, Is there anyone else that wants to take another wild guess at the answer..??




Petro

[That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.]

Ephesians 1:11.  "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

"....predestinated according to the purpose of Him...."

Who is predestinated?  The "we" of this verse. Who is the "we"?  Paul and the church at Ephesus. Christians, Saints, the saved.

How are they predestinated? "....according to the purpose of Him...."


What is His purpose?  "....working all things after the counsel of His own will...."

What is His will?

Ollie,


The answer to your question is found in the very next verse;

Eph 1
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Everthing God, does, is for the prupose that "he might be praised and glorified."



God Bless,

Petro

I don't think I ever heard anyone argue that faith and works go together however works and salvation do not.  As Petro pointed out are works for Christ shall be judged and the man shall be saved.  There is no getting around this verse and many others that salvation is through faith AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Why people want to get all religious about it I can't fully figure out aside from man always wanting to prove that he's worth something.

Take care,
Jason

Thank You Jason,

And this is an amazing revelation, or it should be at leats for them that agree, one must have works to obtain salvation.

The opening post, states;

"To have faith, you must also have good works. To have good
works, you must also have faith. Faith without works is as
vain as having works, but no faith."

So, my question stands, can anyone answer the question scripture asks??

James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Petro

[if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;]

SonofAslan,

Here is another verse, you can cross out of your bible;  maybe I gave it to you already..

2 Tim 2
24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


I must admit, it isn't easy being patient, with you all.

Petro

[for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.]

posted by sonofaslan,

We can only respond to God’s grace because God’s grace is given to us FIRST. Without God’s grace, we could not respond to Him.

I am amazed, you argue this point in this way.

Grace is not a gift at all, it is the means by which the gift is produced thru faith, and even that faith is granted, thru repentance.

Repentance is not something which can originate within any man of himself, nor can  be produced in himself, as one would pump watert out of a well. It is a divine gift, you can't see this, because, your theology is based on the semi-peliagianistic teaching that, it is a product of man's works.

I will give another scripture, so that you can reject it, also;

Acts 5
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Who is in view at these verses, where it says "Israel"??

Did that explain the difference? Armenianism? I don’t know anything that about really, except that it’s a reaction to Calvin’s extremes. But all reactions tend to fall into the opposite error.

Armenianism is the protestant version of Semi-Pelegianism, you shouldn't even concern yourself, with another heretical view, it has no value, in as much as it will not bring you into a closer relation with God.

I don't expect you to agree with what I said, but it should be understandable. And I think it should be clear that it contains no heresy.

So, you say..

Petro

The sin of unbelief, in the face of the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven, if one does not believe in this life, there is no other sin, which cannot be forgiven, however, all other sins are not the issue in this age

Nice interpretation, but it isn’t Scriptural. It is your opinion. Unsubstantiated by scriptural support. I’m not saying I disagree with you completely, but you act as if  the “sin of unbelief” is a special category of sin all to itself. This is false and unbiblical. I have read Romans 11, and Hebrews 3 and 4 numerous times and over and over again. You may INTERPRET then to categorize “unbelief” as some special unforgivable sin, but that’s just an opinion, not Scripture carved in stone.

What makes it carved in stone, is Jesus words of Mk 16:16.


He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But your claim that everyone who disagrees with you is contradicting Scripture is false.

This statement you make is not only false, but foolish, I never made such a claim.

It only shows you are "vehemently against the word of God", the matter is always revealed by those who oppose the truth.




Petro

[And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.]

Petro-

My point is most definitely valid.

For you it may be. To me it is not.

You said that it was Christ who came to Joshua and gave him the battle plan.

Yes I did say it.  Verse 2 of Cahpter 6, is where it occurred., Notice the verse;

And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

You just assume, this is someone else.

You based this on Joshua's action, the verse you cited where God told him he would be with Joshua in the promised land.  You asked if Joshua did not anticipate the Lord as he entered the fray against Jericho.  I agree that he did, but that he would not have expected God to take on physical form and appear to him as he did.

So, this is your opinion, I have given you mine, with references.

Joshua, was there when the Lord fought for the nation at the crossing of the Red Sea, I think you limit Joshua, and assume he thought the way you do.  I think not.

To the Hebrews, God was not something or someone you could look at, not even something you could visualize.  No God-fearing Hebrew would have ever expected God to appear in the form of a man.

You might try reading Ex 33, and while your are at it, pay particular attention to verse 11, you will even see Joshua, present, I say perhaps within ear shot, of God speaking to Moses.

So, I simply reject your presumption, that all Hebrews ever expected God to appear in the form of man.

And then you have the Passage at Ex 18, where the Lord appeared to Abraham, and please don't tell me, Abraham, didn't know it was the Lord, look at verse 25, Abraham knew he was speaking to the "Judge of all thre earth."

So your presupposition is all it is, and it is based on how you view the truth.

"Well this is the reason why you and I are miles apart, I believe I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and since He lives within me, and empowers me by his very presence, in the spirit."

This is not the reason we're miles apart.  I believe I have a personal relationship with Him, too.  But that does not mean He is still physically present on Earth, does it?  And you just validatd my point, when you said He is with you in the Spirit.  That is the kind of presence Joshua would have expected.

We are miles apart, friend, you take liberties with scripture, I  do not.

"Jesus claimed to be the I AM of the OT,"

Yeah, I know.  My point, which I'm assuming you didn't even read due to your response, was that the angel that Joshua saw was identified by a title not ascribed to God anywhere else in Scripture.  Furthermore, none of the usual titles for God were mentioned, lending weight to the fact that the angel was not Jesus.

You were complaining in your last post, when I used the word angel, now you are using it.  It wasn't an angel, it was a man, has been your premise from the begining, are you saying it is an angel now??

"He referred to the Host of the Lord Israel in this context..you simply want to argue form the sake of arguing."

No, I'm pointing out that the Host of the Lord is not limited to the people of Israel, as you implied.

I never said anything that would contradict, what you stated, the Host in view here, is the Armies of Israel.

"So what..you stepped in defending, the worship of angels"

No, I stepped in showing you why your posts were wrong.

Well, this is the point you brought up, to beef up the argument put forth up, that indeed men, in the OT, worshipped angels.

And by the way, I think it is a cop out, to declare yourself a consicienctious objecter while in the middle of your contract with the military, A man who volunteers to serve his country, ought to serve the time he agreed to, you could have changed your duties, perhaps to that of chaplains assistance.

I served my country, as an infantryman in Vietnam, and willing would have given my all, for people like you, I suppose you your change of heart is do to your secular liberal studies, I'm telling you, Christians need to reject, liberal humanistic philosophies, they have a way of undermining the word of God in people.

I noticed you failed to comment on several of my points, including but not limited too:

1)  The fact that you referenced commentaries, only to deny that you need to use them.
2)  The fact that the verses you site aren't as "clear" as you'd like them to be.
3)  The hermeneutics behind the translation of these verses.

The first one doesn't matter to me, but I'd especially like a response to the latter two.  

I answer what I decide to answer not, what I am compelled to for the sake of argument.


Petro

posted by sonofaslan,
Ok, first, your distinction between sin in  general and the sin of unbelief, as if a) this distinction is legit and b) the sin of unbelief is so heinous but all other sin is perfectly acceptable to God is an abomination. All sin is pure wickedness and God can abide NONE of it. And unbelief is no WORSE a sin than adultery or murder. In fact, the mother of ALL sin is pride.[/quoted]


All manner of sin, can be forgiven, even the sin of Blashpemy against the Son of man, but blashemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life nor the one to come.

The sin of unbelief, in the face of the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven, if one does not believe in this life, there is no other sin, which cannot be forgiven, however, all other sins are not the issue in this age.

Second, show me anywhere in Scripture where this distinction you make between the supposed “sin of unbelief” and all other sin. It isn’t here. Sin is sin. Period.

Obviously you've never read Rom 11, Heb 3 and 4.

This is it, I have discussed this with you, to a conclusion.

I have given you what you desired, an answer.

There it is take it or leave it.

Good luck,  

Petro

SonofAslan,

[cooperate]

SonofAslan,


In reading another thread on this forum, I noticed you, made comment to Anathasius, and Pelegianism, and Anathasius's defence against this heretical doctrine.

Your post gave the impression, you understand the teaching of these doctrines.

Throughout church history the debate concerning predestination has raged among three views: Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism, and Augustinianism.

1.  Pelagianism maintains that God's grace assists fallen man in redemption but is not necessary to attain salvation. This view, which holds that fallen man is virtuous and able to earn salvation by doing good works, has always been considered heretical by the church because it rejects the necessity of faith and total dependence on Christ in salvation.

Though heretical, it has reappeared this century in many liberal churches.

2.  Semi-Pelagianism, very similar to Arminianism, contends that man cannot be saved apart from God's grace; however, fallen man must cooperate and assent to God's grace before he will be saved. Inherent in this view is the belief that man, prior to any work of regeneration in the soul by God, has the power to accept and embrace God's grace. Salvation for semi-Pelagians is man's decision, not God's will.

In this scheme, two people can receive the same offer of salvation by God. One may turn in faith of his own accord, the other may not -- the difference being not God's grace in the matter, but man's will.

The semi-Pelagians would argue that the person who comes to faith cannot do so without God's grace, but that grace is not the determining factor in a person's coming to faith, this then is the reason, why Armenianism, teaches a "faith, works gospel"..

The final distinction between believer and unbeliever is something in the believer.

We contend, that distinction is the Holy Spirit, drawing, moving and working in the unbeliever, who has been elected to become a BELIEVER.  This is why, Heb 6:4-6, is accepted as and understood to be speaking of an unbeliever, who has been sanctified for the hearing of the Gospel, and the teaching at this verses, is that "it is impossible", "if they should fall away to renew them again to repentance".  

The Key word in this passage is the word  "IF".  And this passage is definitely not speaking of a be4liever who falls away.

I believe you used the word Arian, in describing Semi-Pelegianism, they are not the same error, I was wondering if you didn't mean Armenianism??  It should not have anything to do with Orthodoxy, since it is a Protestant doctrine.

It is apparent to me by this time, that you support and align yourself with the doctrine embraced by  Semi-Pelegianism in the Orhtodox camp and Armenianism in the Protestant camp, is this so??

If it is, how is it that eastern Orthodox faithful, have come, once again, to embraced, elements of this heretical doctrine,  which have been adjured to be paganism and condemned  by the Carthaginian Synod of 412, and Pope Innocent I in 416??

Or is it because east and west, settled on Semi-Pelegianism to be the embraced doctrine of both camps??

Petro.

[not]

SonofAslan,

Now, concerning James 2:14-26, It is important not to leave out the first thirteen verses of this passage, since it sets up the verses, which seem to teach there is a work other than "believing by faith" the works of God.

14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

in another thread which seems to reconcile, faith and works as one, I asked the question, What is the answer to this question??

What would be your answer to this question scripture asks??

15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In the other thread, Ollie, inserts two verses in 2 Cor 5, I expand them to include the following;

And, In the light of, these verses;

1 Cor 5
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Verse 9 speaks of some kind of labour, is this labor necessary for salvation??

You would answer "YES", as you have already ikndicated, for all work is one in the same and necessary for salvation you would argue; the problem with this thought is, that the very next verse (vs 10)  discounts this theory outta hand, since "suffer loss" according to the next set of verses, speaks of  a spiritual loss, and judgement is received in the same body one had which earned him this loss , but does not affect his salvation,  at all, since it is plain, the individual whose works are judged is still saved according to verse, (15, below). And note verse 8, below, each man receives his own reward according to his own labor

1 Cor 3
5  Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6  I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9  For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

These verses speak for themselves, a man is not judged by his works for salvation, but judged for the receiving of a reward or suffering loss, but neither affect his salvation, this is very clear.

Now, back to Jeames 2,

Faith according to Heb11:1, is the confident assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of the reality of things not seen.

 It is the basis for salvation , which is being that of being born of the will of God by his power (Jhn 1:12-13) by faith in Jesus Christ, becoming children of God thru the same faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26), and are kept by the same power, thru faith in Him (1 Pet 1:5)

Works are the deeds of men, whether good or evil, and according to scripture no flesh can be justified by  works of the law (if this is true, what other works can justify, certainly not, good deeds which the heathen do; and are not justified by them doing them.  

Let me stop here,  so as not confuse you any further, the law has to aspects to it, the letter and the spirit, obedience to the letter of the law, keeps the law as a friend to oneself, but imediately upon transgressing it, the law becomes an enemy, because it demands retribution, judgment, and that judgement is death; while......... the spirit of the law, is such that  obedience to it is life eternal, the problem is "there is none that keep it". Consider, (2 Cor 3:6)(Rom 7:6)(

So works are simply the basis for rewards or punishment when men are judged according to their deeds, and this judgement as has been showen, has absolutely nothing to do with losing  nor gaining salvation, Eph 2:8-9, makes it plain, one does nothing to obtain it by anyuthing he does , and Gal 2:16, even obeying the law does not justify a man.

Men confuse these two concepts; but, scripture never does.

James, at chapter 2, appears to contradict what Paul states at  Rom 3:28;  that  "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law",  while James at 2:24 says; "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

So, where is the problem.  Paul was writing about justification before God, see Rom 4:2.  

While James herein writes of being justified before men, see verse 2:18 " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works."

He (James is writing and dealing with the question of the man who says he has faith, but has no works to demonstrate its reality, this is the context of James 2:14-20.  He says nothing to discredit faith, nor to suggest that this man of faith may be unsaved.

Paul speaks of the root of the Christian walk; while James of its fruit, before the unlearneded and unsaved.

Faith and works are put in prespective in Eph 2:8-9, it depends how one understands this passage that determines, his view on the sugject.  Either way, all are saved the same way, by faith, not by works; however we are saved "unto good works."  and, this means we are to maintain good works (Titus 3:, being fruitful in them, (Col 1:10), so that God may be glorified when Christ returns,  (1 Pet 2:12).

A short word on your answer, concerning works;  you stated that the works necessary to become saved, were;  believe, repent, be baptised.

We agreed on one of the three, it seems your understanding of repentance was a little clouded in my mind, repentance, is something which God gives, I know you disagree with this, but the word is very clear about it being granted by God,  since in;

Acts 11
18  ..............................Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It is God who hardens hearts or softens them, so that he should receive the glory for the gift of salvation in the end, he is Sovereign and does what He wills in the affairs of men.

I know this rubs you and others the wrong way, but unfortunately, this is the truth, and salvation has nothing to do with anyone except on whom God desires to give it to.

Unknown quote;

"Who are they that, object vehemently to the absolutes of God's word?  

But, Those who object to God's word. "

I trust you are not one of these..

Petro

So, what is the answer to the question;


James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Please note; Ollies verses; and here I add these little verses;

1 Coir 3
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is there anyone here who would argue,  this is not a Christians works,  being judged.

(Not speaking of works to be saved, this is obvious)

If anyone appears at the Judgement Seat of Christ, (not to be confused with the white throne judgement) do the works being judged, concern his salvation??

NO.....

According to these verses,  this man's works, regardless of whether or not all his works burn or not, "he him self shall be saved"

The very fact he appears at the judgement seat of Christ,   is evidence he is saved.

Can any of you all, reconcile your thoughts on this matter..

Anyone can answer??  This is not directed at anyone of you all.



Petro

 posted by pnotc
Certainly, but it wasn’t in the form of a man!!  That’s alien to the entire concept the Hebrews had of God at this point.  

pnotc,

I haven't had alot of time to watch for your posts, but nevertheless, here I am answering the points s you raised which are worthy of comment.

Above, what may be foriegn to your understanding of the Hebrew nation, matters very little, we know God, commissioned and sent a man, Moses to bring them out of bondage, he was a real man, the "man" spoken of in Joshua 5:13, was not, so, your point isn't even valid.

But let me bring up another verse – Matt 28:20.  Here, Christ tells us His disciples He will be them, always.  Does that mean Christ is still here physically?  Is He still walking around somewhere, helping out at soup kitchen or something?  Of course not!  Obviously this is figurative, metaphorical language.  Christ does not mean He will be physically present any more than God meant he would be physically present with Joshua.

Well this is the reason why you and I are miles apart, I believe I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and since He lives within me, and empowers me by his very presence, in the spirit.

His words are the final authority, He said;

Jhn 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Are these words true to you??

The discussion of whether or not the people of Israel accepted Moses as being sent by God has nothing to do with whether or not the being that appeared to Joshua is Jesus!  I was pointing out to you that when God has appeared to others in the OT, he was clearly identified as such, by titles like “I AM”.  So I asked you, why aren’t those titles present if this is truly an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ?  Their absence does not necessarily prove either of our points, but it is an interesting facet of the argument.  Other times when the preincarnate Christ appeared in the OT, those appearances were markedly different from the one we have in Joshua.  In my mind, this is yet another reason to call your argument into question.

Jesus claimed to be the I AM of the OT, ;

Jhn 8
58  ...........Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

“What you missed it??”

Nope, I wanted to make sure you weren’t making more mistakes, and you are.  The army of Israel is certainly a host, but it is not THE host.  God has an angelic army, as well.  Or was Jesus referring to a legion of Hebrews when He said he could be rescued from the cross if He but called?  Obviously the Lord’s Host extends into heaven, as well, and there is little reason to think that host was not also present on the fields of Jericho.  

He referred to the Host of the Lord Israel in this context..you simply want to argue form the sake of arguing.

“Try your first post, where you entered in at the conversation, where the worship of angels were being discussed, at the Orthodox thread.”

Unfortunately, your comrade-at-fundamentalism Juan deleted the original Orthodox thread, so we’ll never know exactly what I said.  I am, however, quite sure that I never said angels should or could be worshipped.  I have not a single doubt that you got that impression from your obvious misunderstanding of veneration vs worship.  

So what..you stepped in defending, the worship of angels.


Petro