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How do we answer questions such as, "Can you prove God, or Jesus, Exists or existed?"

Here`s a good link to read that might help answer your questions Rosie

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html)


(http://www.godandscience.org/images/mirror.jpg)
Those who look at the universe as it is will clearly see the hand of God.


Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Oklahoma Howdy to Shylynne,

Thanks for the link. I can see that I must spend some time there studying a host of ideas about witnessing. I think that the picture of the baby looking in the mirror at his image speaks volumes. One can make the comparison that God created man in HIS image and go from there.

Your Link: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html)   also addresses a host of questions that trained atheists use to hunt and make sport of Christians. It's hard to believe there are lost people actually trained to hunt and trap Christians. It's really sad how much damage they do, especially for those who are struggling with a decision for Christ and those who are babes in Christ. For this and many other reasons, we should all be extremely busy in building each other up in Christ to fight the devil and add members and power to THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0203/intro.html (http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0203/intro.html)

For this and many other reasons, we should all be extremely busy in building each other up in Christ to fight the devil and add members and power to THE BODY OF CHRIST.


amen Tom!

If Jesus was raised from the dead, as I am absolutely, intellectually positive that He was--and the evidence of history is overwhelming--it's not only a matter of faith but a matter of deepest intellectual conviction

Great link sincereheart !

How do we answer questions such as, "Can you prove God, or Jesus, Exists or existed?"

Sometimes that's an ideal question to actually dodge.

I mean, there's something more important to them, at this moment, than that particular question.

Try to find out what that is.  

That's how I would try to answer that question.  Go for something that is important to them at that moment.  It's doubtful that question is very important to them, that they are asking.

Oklahoma Howdy to Symphony,

I think that the answers for many questions depend on the setting, the time the person gives you, their attitude when they ask, and their sincerity in asking the question.

If they appear to be serious and really want answers, I would spend all the time they wished. I think that the entire creation proves the existence of God without any doubt. There are intricate patterns of behavior in all of God's creatures. If you start thinking about all of the things that would make just the earth function as a system, it would take millions of top scientists millions of years to uncover a tenth of the secrets. Then you could make a comparison with very simple life forms that we learn something new about all the time. Our best and most brilliant scientists are simply babies playing in God's toy box.

I think the best information regards our personal knowledge about how we know that God is real, that Jesus is our personal Lord and Saviour, and the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts. That would be a hard thing for a lost person to understand, but they might be asking those questions out of despair in some sort of crisis situation. In fact, many people search for answers when their world appears to be falling apart. If they once realize they aren't able to handle everything alone and they start asking about Jesus, that time should never be wasted. The peace and comfort they are desperate for is in the answer to their questions.

If the person is trying to be smart, start an argument, or make fun of God, I would give them a shorter answer and a way to get more information if they changed their minds. That might also be a good opportunity to give them a Bible tract, invite them to church, and any number of other things.

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

The Christian God cannot be proven to exist.

In addition, the "God and Science" website does not support Young Earth Creationism (YEC). Just so you know.

And pretty much every argument against atheism that they have resorts to "God is incomprehensible, so all your arguments against him fail."

That argument's a double-edged sword, friends. If God's incomprehensible, any argument made in his defense likewise fails.

Epistemological transcendance is a corollary of supernatural "existence."

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Most opinions are from a position of perspective, and we must all be aware of that. There is obviously a dramatic difference between the positional perspective of a Christian and a lost person. For the Christian, the absolute proof and evidence of God lives in their hearts. So, how we communicate this personal knowledge and evidence becomes a big question.

The lost person is obviously skeptical or they wouldn't be lost.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Simply.  God points to creation as His proof, and to our lives as His "masterpiece", if you will, as He conforms us into the image of His Son for this world to see.  How can I prove it?  Should be asking, "How can I not?"   :)

That's why God requires us to put our faith in Him for our salvation.  He requires us to believe Him.  The proof is there.  You just have to believe it.   :)

Prayin' for ya Neo.

Example?


Have fun.

Uhhmmm, Neo....


Ya forgot something....


I believe the ball is in your court   :)

Peace  †
Gracey

Take a look outside.  It's written over every blade of grass, every tree and every cloud passing in the sky.  Granted.  It's proof that requires faith, otherwise, it never would please God.   :)

And I will have fun praying for you!  And even more when you see the truth and come to Him.  Afterall, He came for you.   :)

1.) Existence exists.
2.)
3.)
...
818.) Therefore, the Christian God exists as you say he does.

Please fill in the gaps. You know as well as I do that your response is unsatisfactory.

Oklahoma Howdy to Neo,

Why don't you prove that you exist first so we'll know that we aren't wasting our time with an imaginary entity or an automated computer? You'll have to prove that to yourself first, and that might be difficult for you.

I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I exist.

Can you do the same for God?

No, actually that response is most satisfactory neighbor!   :)  Namely because I qualified it:


The gaps are simple.  God exists, not because I say so, but because He says so in His Word.  He says so, I put my faith and trust in Him.  My faith comes only from hearing, and that from His Word.  I simply believe God, not believing just in God.  And again, it requires faith.  In what do you place your trust Neo?

Neo,

DO IT THEN!  I don't think you can! GO FOR IT! As far as I'm concerned, you don't exist. You're just an automated computer and a figment of your own imagination.

LOL  ;D

Two things:

1.) Calling me an "automated computer" or a "figment of my own imagination" doesn't imply that I don't exist, merely that I exist in a different form than that which I have presented to you.

Besides, implying that I have an imagination implies that I exist.

2.) If you want to play that way, BEP, then you pretty much throw yourself in your own kind of solipsistic disneyworld in which nobody matters but you, because you are the only one that you are SURE exists.

In order to make sense of the universe, we must assume the following:

1.) Existence exists.
2.) Consciousness exists.
3.) "A" is "A."

If you don't accept the above (for fear of making one of those assumptions) then you really aren't going to get all that far in life.

Would you like me to come to your house with a fifty page web log of my activity on this board, a seven CD cache of my computer activity, my social security card, my driver's license, three witnesses, and my school ID?

Because, you know, those would probably provide sufficient evidence of my existence.

If God can come up with something similar, I'd love to hear it.

He did!  It's called the stars and the planets and the moons...You place faith in your existence because you have proof.  We place faith in God's because we believe the proof He has given.  And again, in what do you place your trust my friend?   :)

Oklahoma Howdy to Neo,

 ;D  You didn't prove a thing. Let me make it easier for you. Is there any court of record in the US that has given judicial notice that you exist? Judicial notice would be a stipulation that you do indeed exist and that fact would not be argued in that particular court. Driver's License, Social Security cards, and other forms of identification can be easily falsified, so they would not be acceptable at all. Birth certificates are also easily forged. If you actually exist as a real entity, have you ever proved it?

It gets better from here. Go for it!

Tom

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.  But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.  For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable iin all his ways. James 1:5-8

;D LOL

BEP, are you saying that if I were to come to your house, point to myself, and say, "I exist," you would tell me that I DIDN'T? Because you'd be convinced that I'd taken the time to forge all of my documentation and convince a bunch of people to lie to you?

I don't necessarily have to prove who I am; merely that I exist. And to doubt the existence of a man standing in front of you seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Yyyyyyupperz Mr. Neo Sir!   And why would he say such a thing?  Because God has come to your house, pointed to Himself, and said "I AM" and you have said that He DOESN'T.  No documentation?  Gotta whole Bible full of that.  Doubting the existence of a man standing in front of me that I can see, is only slightly less of a stretch than denying the existence of God Whomst I cannot see, but have all the evidence I'll ever need to believe that He not only is, but is a Rewarder to them that believe on Him.   :)

In many places in the Bible, God repeats a point over and over:

Psalm 95:7-8, Hebrews 3:8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7
"Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts”

It is clear God wants us to hear and understand this short message.  Why?

Hebrews 3:19
“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Belief is everything.  We cannot enter in to His Kingdom without it.  Without it we are nothing.  Without it works are futile.  Without it a person is lost.
Blatant disbelief is fatal.

Just a little thought.  Have a nice day.  :)

Oklahoma Howdy to Neo,

I'll accept judicial notice that you exist without seeing you. However, I doubt very seriously that you have that, especially considering that some people serve time in prison under false names. Documents and identifications can be easily obtained. Yes or no - do you have judicial notice that you exist?   ;)  Well??

Tom

Might I say this is all rather silly?  

I'm Christian. I BELIEVE in God.  It is a belief.  A belief I hold as fact.  However, I have absolutely nothing to back this up.  It boils down to "I believe."  I don't have proof.

My existance or lack thereof doesn't prove God exists or that he doesn't.  Lack of proof is not lack of something's existence.  How long did people think coelocanth was extinct before it was found?  Of course that is a little different.  There was proof it existed just not that it still existed. Alternately, existance of one thing doesn't prove the existence of another thing.  My dog doesn't exist b/c I do, and God doesn't exist b/c I do.  My existence doesn't prove there is a god.  

Really,  I find it funny when people try to prove God for "X" reason.  I believe in God and I still find it humorous.  You can give what you feel is evidence, but don't be upset when others have other explanations for your "evidence."  

They can't know there is no God anymore than we can prove there is one.  All we have is belief.  We can hold our beliefs as facts, I do.  At least, try to be smart enough to realize that if someone is looking for proof you don't really have it.  They are miracle driven.  They are those who see and will not believe.  You can "prove" nothing to them, and in actuality we should realize we have nothing to prove anyways.  

And to get the topic back on track:
The best thing to do when they ask for proof of God is to turn the question around.  Do they have proof there is no God?  Christians don't have proof God existed, and athiests don't have proof that he didn't.  That's all there is to it folks.  Honestly, it works for me.  Most questions can be turned around.  Why to why not?  I find that often times they want an answer they can't give a proper refute to when asked the opposite, and wish to use your lack of "appropriate" answer as the chink in your whole argument.  Why not point out their's as well?

God can not be proved using man's methods of proving or disproving. He is evidenced by one's faith.

Ollie

""When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.""

The other gods seemed to have been dismissed from the scene of preeminence in the minds of men, yet the one true God and His Christ and their message remain strong as ever in hearts given to faith. Man's history is proof of this and the fact that it is still very much a part of us. Where are "Odin", "Thor" and the like today?

God?
 
Lets look at some amazing stuff ...that could only be done by a Powerful Intelligence, or creator...period.

If one holds to the evolutionary hypothesis, they are confronted with some unavoidable facts for which they have no answer.

A Tree

1 The tree must have had a desire to propagate its species.

2 It must have known that its seed was for this purpose and would grow.

3 It must have reasoned out that if it just dropped the seed the new plants would compete with each other and choke each other out.

4 It must have known what few people know, that the seeds would fall with the same speed as its heavy capsule.
Therefore it would have to be careful to use great wisdom to ensure the seed as scattered.

5 It would have to know the wind could be used as an agent.

6 It would have to know some things very important, that the wind was able to exert pressure on a flat surface, which the wing has, and know the principles of gliding when air pressure is present.

7 It must know about the pull of gravity. And, after all this, been able to by combining all these laws conclude that, if the wing was set at an angle of 45 degrees to the pull of gravity, and with a slight tilt, the seed would spin while falling.

8 Then also have calculated that the spinning action would extend the falling time, so that the wind could carry it even further away.

9 It must have had great wisdom in designing the capsule to have it split open in exactly the correct place to release the two seeds.

Let the evolutionist explain.

1 How did the tree know the seed must be kept perfectly dry?

2 How did it develop such an effective means of doing so by encasing the seed in a recess impregnated with damp proof wax in the sap saturated capsule?

3 Who gave the tree the formula for this wax and the knowledge to carry all the foregoing into effect?

4 Above all. How did it put life into each and every individual seed so that it would bring forth faithfully. 'After its kind' or, (miyn Hebrew) species or genus?

I may not agree with all this mans teachings...i  didnt read it all

Taken from here:
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/efinck/GODSEAL.HTM#Page15[/url]



Amen: even the plants are alive... so how did they get this intelligence?...a creator thats how. Super Computers are not this complicated, and man created them, but not without Gods lumber or tools...man without God or creation are  useless. And may i say he has done an amazing job at providing us with this lumber...every thing we create comes from another creation... even the water in our bodys comes from this creation. Food etc...interesting isnt it?

'That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.' Romans 1:19-20.



 

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Ollie,

Neo didn't bite on the judicial notice question. If he had, there would have been a legal argument that God does indeed exist according to every court in the land. After all, you do have to swear or affirm that you will tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Many courts still have prayer before they convene, including the US Supreme Court. In fact, it is pretty common in many courts. Regardless, there is judicial notice in America that Almighty God does exist. This would be a legal proof as opposed to a scientific proof. Yes, I know that the atheists would "ha ha" at this, but they are really laughing at themselves and the time may be short to wake up and see the majesty and reality of Almighty God.

AJ,

Thanks for sharing that with us. The mighty works of God, our CREATOR, are all around us. Science may be able to explain 1% of God's creation, but that explanation would probably be poor. Thanks for the link also. I'll go there and read the rest of the article if my computer survives.

All,

In terms of proof in all categories, it is 1,000 times harder to prove that God doesn't exist.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Christianity in my definition is belief in the Bible. This the one "faith" that is based on history and evidence.

I came from atheism and evolutionism to belief in the Bible based on the logic and the evidence.

Please elaborate.

Surely Christianity is a belief in Christ (and an attempt to follow Him).  It's perfectly possible to be Christian and never to have seen a bible.   The bible is a means to learn about Christ, not the end in itself.

Who does the work of salvation?

Ebia, how do we know what Jesus said if we don't read the bible? Just a guess? Or are all of us omniscient?

 ;D

I can't believe how far off track a simple question went about witnessing.  Seems to be a trend on a few message boards these days.

I liked the answer Allinall gave.  Scripturally sounds as usual my friend.   As scripture says, (paraphrasing) only a full can look at creation and say there is no God, however there are quite a few fools these days  ;D

One angle I take on a question like that is the following.   It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus walked the earth some 2000 years ago, and was crucified on a cross.   His followers fled into hiding fearing for their own lives.  They come out of hiding standing on the street corners professing that their Jesus had risen from the dead.   What gave them that sort of boldness knowing they would face certain death?  Could it have been they were witness to a risen Lord?

Usually this is enough to get logical minds thinking.  I also note that most will abandon this question for others when I give this answer.   I think the most important thing to remember when witnessing is to follow the Holy Spirits lead.  He will guide you and your words if you let him.   All that is needed is to plant the seed of truth.  Someone else may water it and nuture it later on.

Grace and Peace!

Amen Bro!  And thanks!  Good to see you back around the boards.   :)

I am in a fellowship group with some great guys.  They often speak of apologetics and arguments for Christ.   I sometimes find this interesting, but sometimes it seems that it is only for the sake of proving themselves right.  On the flipside, I found it very encouraging that an old friend of mine was able and willing to talk with me, a new Christian, about the experiences I have had.  It was obvious he was searching for something that he did not have.  I did not have to prove anything to him, just to tell my story and listen to his.  How promising and encouraging that our relationship with Christ is so very personal, as is our relationship with friends and family.  So much more is comminicated here, I think, in personal relationships, than in anywhere else in our lives.  Perhaps my struggle with testimony was that it was focused on impersonal relationships, rather than personal ones.  Well, perhaps, I ramble.

Let me preface these comments by saying that I have not read this entire thread.  I have to admit that I humbly disagree with much of what I have read.  I'm only being honest..disagreement is OK when done in love.  I hope you know that I love you all and look forward to eternity with each of you.  I just happen to disagree with some of the posts.  

For starters.  I don't believe you should get off on "rabbit trails" when sharing the gospel.  Stick to the point!!! Atheists love to put the burden of proof on the Christian  but the burden is squarely on their shoulders.  However, I will offer this as some practical advice.  

If you happen to be standing outside during your discussion with the atheist, simply point to a nearby building and ask him/her how they know that building had a builder?  Or how do we know that a painting had a painter?  The building/painting is proof that there was a builder/painter.  All you need are eyes and a brain and you know that a building didn't just happen.  There was intellegent design and thought put into their creation.  You don't have to see,smell,hear, or have ever met the builder to know that he exists.  His creation is proof.  God's creation is proof that there is a creator.  

Or you can tell the atheist that you can convert them to an agnostic in 30 seconds. They always love this challenge.  

Ask them this question?   Of ALL the knowledge in the universe, how much do you think YOU personally possess.  The correct answer is less than 1/1millionth of a % but be generous and give them 1 %.  Then ask them this...  Of the 99% of knowledge that you do NOT possess,  IS IT POSSIBLE that there is some proof of God's existence.  A reasonable person would have to admit that it is at least possible.  You've just converted an atheist to an agnostic.  If they are stubborn and won't bend.  Just proceed anyway.  Still give them the gospel the way Jesus would have.  

I spend considerable amounts of time on the streets of my city witnessing to all types of people.   Make no mistake apologetics are important when sharing your faith with pre-Christians however it is not the foundation of your argument.  The gospel is the seed...not apologetical argument.  The true gospel of Jesus Christ bypasses the intellect and goes straight to the consciensce.  In other words....it evens the playing field.  Do you want to get into a philosophical discussion with a Harvard professor who professes to being an atheist? Most of us probably would not unless our name is Ravi Zacharias.  But doesn't that professor need Jesus the same way that a homeless man living in the park needs Jesus?You bet he does!  So how do we reach him? Avoid him? Let someone else do it?  Pray that God will send him someone smarter than you?  Maybe you are the one God has placed in his path.  You can do it.  You may feel unequipped and rightfully so.  Your going to war armed with a feather duster in your hand.  

One year ago, I felt the exact same way that many of you do. I was terrified of sharing my faith because I was carrying a feather duster to a gunfight.  Please go to www.thewayofthemaster.com for help in sharing your faith effectively.  They will be able to give you the weapons that will revolutionize your ability to share your faith effectively the way that Jesus did.  I've gotta' run for now.  It's ten past five and I've gotta get home.  Hope this helps.

Until the Nets are Full.

Thank you, street preacher.  some good points.  Thank you for preaching the Good News.

food4:  They often speak of apologetics and arguments for Christ.  I sometimes find this interesting, but sometimes it seems that it is only for the sake of proving themselves right

Yes, unfortunately, this is a trap all of us fall into, unawares.  The "Gospel" becomes just one more excuse, among a jillion excuses that man makes up to justify himself in front of his brethren.  It takes wisdom, years of experience, good reading and/or study, and especially, or most importantly, a close, meaningful walk with Jesus, to know the difference.   Words are powerful.  Few of us know how to select them, or to select them carefully.  And, they are a reflection of who we really are.  Our words are a reflection of who--or what--we really are.  Few of us are aware of that.

Amen!  And welcome aboard Brother!   :)

I know that there is solid factual evidence for my faith. While I was doing my bio Sciences degree at university here in England, I learned that one does not becoem a Christian because someone proves it is true. People can have you providing reams and reams of solid evidence, but they still may not believe. There are reasons for this is given in the bible, unforunately I can't rember them, which I know is of no use...

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


The above has proved so true in my life. I've met people who have a head knowledge of Christ, they even accept logically that He is who He claims to be, YET they are not convicted deep within of their own sin, they still feel no need of a saviour. I was the same when I first came to God, it was only later that I discovered that I wasn't converted when I thought I was..

The impact of the gospel on unbelievers lies in God's Words preached and lived out in the lives of men.

John 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Coming from a scientific background I could if I wanted to go into endless debate about proof. But I feel that in the majority of cases it is a total waste of time. Not in every case, but in most cases. Often ( mostly unknowingly) people demand proof because they do not want to be confronted with a challenge that forces them to make a decision one way or the other. They like the heat to be off of themselves and to be able to once again display their own cleverness by making the evangelist look foolish.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Peope will even decieve themselves that the gospel is false once adequate proof has been given. It happens all the time.

Street Preacher thank you for the GREAT post brother. Also thanks for the link. God Bless.

AMEN BROTHER BERN!!

I enjoyed your post. Faith wouldn't be faith if someone had 1000% proof standing in front of them that everyone could see, hear, and touch. However, faith grows stronger by the hour for a real child of God because of the Mighty Power of HIS WORD and HIS influence within our hearts and minds. For many of the stronger and more mature Christians, they have that 1000% proof in their hearts and they know it. Assurance of Salvation makes JOY IN JESUS more and more full. HE does become more real than scientific evidence. As we all know, scientific evidence is many times debunked and unfounded. JESUS has never been, nor will HE be debunked or unfounded.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: