Faith Alone or Faith and Righteous Living?

[John the Baptist]

Hello John, I want to make sure that I'm geting your beliefs right, you believe that it is by faith and works that one is saved?  I believe differently according to scripture so I disagree with Petro.  To me, when Jesus made a promise, He said it with no strings attached so now if he did, He had just told a white lie saying, "if you believe me...you have eternal life but..."

Ps.  I love to read verses but I can only deal with one verse at a time, so it is an even exchange of ideas and not a firefight.

God bless

Agur

*******
Hi Agur, (John here)
What do you make of this one verse in Matt. 4? 'Every Word'
Then tomorrow hook it together with 2 Tim. 3:16. 'ALL'
Then next week put the three together with another from Rev. 12:17 & see what they say? 'GOD's COMMANDMENTS and the TESTIMONY OF CHRIST' (See Isa. 21:42 for Christs testimony! only ones saved in Rev. 12:17)

Then the bottom line is that this takes a power from above to understand this, & surely for the LIVING 'WORKING' FAITH OF THIS REQUIRED AGREEMENT! Acts 5:32

Does one LOVE CHRIST is the question? (and this ONLY comes from a CHANGE OF HEART! Born AGAIN!) Only ONE VERSE is needed by Christ Himself to understand if one really believes, or if he or she has any [[saving]] FAITH? (for even the devils have a [real] believing faith, THAT SAVES NO ONE!!! see also John 12:42-43)

The ONE verse is: "[IF] ye [LOVE ME] [KEEP MY
COMMANDMENTS]." Total freedom!

Now friend, (true) Faith in Christ had 'saved' ALL of [the saved] from eternity. That is the Everlasting Gospel of Rev. 14:6. See Heb. 11:13. Christ also tells an ETERNAL TRUTH by saying "THAT WITHOUT [ME] YE CAN DO NOTHING"! (think of other world's' in the plural!) And Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.
And WHY did the GodHead put the [FORBIDDEN] tree of 'TESTING' in the MIDST of the Garden??? Did Adam & Eve EAT of it or simpley profess & believe that they had?

Now collecting these verses over a few weeks, ( ), what do [you] want to do with Heb. 13:20's EVERLASTING COVENANT verse?? James simply teaches by 'inspiration' that any professed belief or faith that does not OBEY GOD in [LOVING ACTION OF OBEDIENCE] is D-E-A-D BEING ALONE! James 2:26, & 20, & 14! (OR B-R-A-I-N dead at best!)

Just print this as others do, & perhaps down the road you will 'see' as God leads? Rom. 8:14. REMEMBER though, that first before any person can be 'LED' by the Holy Spirit, they have GOT TO BE GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT! And Acts 5:32 answers your first question of a person's faith alone saving them? THE HOLY GHOST IS GIVEN [ONLY] TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM!! And Who INSPIRED [ALL] OF THE WRITINGS OF THE MASTER'S WORDS! (not just one verse! such as Matt. 4:5-6)

---John

 

[Agur3046]

Dear John

       Thank you for responding, it takes care and patience to deal with each person that differs from your opinions but especially so if you have seen it all before.  There is however, something I want to bring to your attention before we continue.
       Now - I dont mean to be rude but didn't I just say One by One?  Now I know where you come from, I am a former Catholic, but due to the length of the page and the number of verses, I won't read them unless you pick one for me so I can answer them.
       The reason I wanted an even exchange is that for one, fairness.  Some Christian might just come here with little pun, but a heart for God and some expert exherts his wits on this poor fellow with so much information the believer will be intimidated.  By the way, there are those who love to defeat other by unfair methods and one of such ways includes un-interuppted barrage of verses; I trust you are the opposite.
       Another is time.  A piece like yours though helpful, it takes time and energy to read and answer all passages when only one verse can be given just to show evidence.  If Salvation is Clearly stated by Works, then why assemble and piece together a puzzle?  Isn't the Bible clear enough?
       Finally, the real way of solving problem such as this is simply going through them one by one.  For example, if I give you one, you can tell me how I mis-interpret that verse; afterwards, you can give me one in return.  By solving each problematic verse, the Bible will reveal the truth; the clarity of Salvation will shine brighter and brighter until all that is left is a decision.
        But if you want I can start, i'll just give you a verse that I believe proves my point: John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

       Notice, it doesn't say believe and earn, nor does it say baptize but believe and when they do, they has or Have everlasting life (has or have, present tense), and shall NOT come into condemnation but HAS passed from death Unto Life...

Ps.  If you do not want to follow this way, then I will think that you are not interested in listening, but only to defeat so that you can walk away and add another to your tally.  I have a number of bad experiences so I do know what i'm talking about - now it's your turn.

15   But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Peter 3:15



Agur (and not agrue)

[John the Baptist]

Dear John

       Thank you for responding, it takes care and patience to deal with each person that differs from your opinions but especially so if you have seen it all before.  There is however, something I want to bring to your attention before we continue.
       Now - I dont mean to be rude but didn't I just say One by One?  Now I know where you come from, I am a former Catholic, but due to the length of the page and the number of verses, I won't read them unless you pick one for me so I can answer them.
       The reason I wanted an even exchange is that for one, fairness.  Some Christian might just come here with little pun, but a heart for God and some expert exherts his wits on this poor fellow with so much information the believer will be intimidated.  By the way, there are those who love to defeat other by unfair methods and one of such ways includes un-interuppted barrage of verses; I trust you are the opposite.
       Another is time.  A piece like yours though helpful, it takes time and energy to read and answer all passages when only one verse can be given just to show evidence.  If Salvation is Clearly stated by Works, then why assemble and piece together a puzzle?  Isn't the Bible clear enough?
       Finally, the real way of solving problem such as this is simply going through them one by one.  For example, if I give you one, you can tell me how I mis-interpret that verse; afterwards, you can give me one in return.  By solving each problematic verse, the Bible will reveal the truth; the clarity of Salvation will shine brighter and brighter until all that is left is a decision.
        But if you want I can start, i'll just give you a verse that I believe proves my point: John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

****
One verse?
OK: This sounds like a game? (hope not , but we will see? read Titus 3:9-11 for 'our' thinking I hope)

I answer the verse that you give with a question. It is seen
in Matt. 4:6. It is a quoted PROMISE of the Master's own Word to Himself by the 'd'evil himself. (from Psalms 91:11) And even Christ's answer is from the O.T. of perhaps Deut. 6:16?

My answer is the same as Christ's answer. NO one verse can be the COMPLETE PACKAGE. Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16 for starters. (both are in the N.T.) What am I saying? Two verses are C-L-E-A-R to me. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 use the WORD of EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT. It Takes the TOTAL package to understand BOTH. Such as the Tree in the Midst of the garden for TESTING a [PERFECTLY] created Adam & Eve. Why???

[Your] below words are seen as argumentive? Who ever said that anyone was, is, or ever was trying to EARN salvation??

The Born Again Christian has now at [THIS TIME] that recreated [time,] a NEW HEART TRANSPLANT! (See 2 Cor. 3:3) Does Christ when stating this TRUTH say, "[IF] ye LOVE ME keep my COMMANDMENTS as a way to earn salvation??? Come on now?

One DEVELOPS A CHARACTER from Rom. 8:1 of NO CONDEMNATION to MORAL MATURITY! The POWER IS SUPPLIED by Christ as seen in Phil. 4:13 & HIS GRACE in 2 Cor. 12:9.   Now for your one verse, do you suppose that it can be taken without these others?? Sounds like we have a 'lukewarm' Love if that is the case?

---John
******

       Notice, it doesn't say believe and earn, nor does it say baptize but believe and when they do, they has or Have everlasting life (has or have, present tense), and shall NOT come into condemnation but HAS passed from death Unto Life...

Ps.  If you do not want to follow this way, then I will think that you are not interested in listening, but only to defeat so that you can walk away and add another to your tally.  I have a number of bad experiences so I do know what i'm talking about - now it's your turn.

15   But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Peter 3:15



Agur (and not agrue)

[Agur3046]

Dear John

       I simply asked you for one, ONE verse to back up your claim, and notice, I did not say, "Disregard all verses."  Now i'm sure you have a whole list for me to look at, but One by One DOES NOT mean One and farewell!  In addition, there is  a suspicion that i'm playiny a game of sort.  The problem is, I have been very clear to you why our engagement must be done this way so that it would be fair, timewise, and sure.  Reading my reasons wouldnt you say that I am serious?  
       Now ou gave me more than I can answer for today; and I think you evern tried to sneak one more to me:

Does Christ when stating this TRUTH say, "[IF] ye LOVE ME keep my COMMANDMENTS as a way to earn salvation??? Come on now?  

       Thats a Bible quotation, now I have to answer three on top of the rest of references.
       To please you, i'll answer Mt 4:4 but no more.


4   But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

       Now that is a wonderful verse, and is useful to remind us of the necessity of study, but where does it say here in this passage that we need to study to be apporoved to heaven?

[John the Baptist]

Dear John
 
(removed for content)
       
Now that is a wonderful verse, and is useful to remind us of the necessity of study, but where does it say here in this passage that we need to study to be apporoved to heaven?

*******
We have perhaps a different 180 degree 'belief' on one approved, staying approved!? There is NO CONDENMATION to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Now what? We are ALL SAVED, lets just take a long sleep.

Well, Matt. 4:4 followed verse one of Christ as man, being tempted. (tested is a better understanding. Unless one believes God delibertly & presumptously walked into temptation)
So what was the GodHeads purpose of testing anyone? Christ was PERFECT! So was Luciffer created perfect. And Adam & Eve were both created Very Good as is stated! (Perfect) So why in the world was the tree allowed to be put right there in the Midst of the Garden Of Eden???

This no doubt is where we disagree? Salvation & ALL Promises of God are conditional unless stated! (such as the rainbow in the sky) Heb. 13:20's EVERLASTING COVENANT is just that. CONDITIONS!  Perfect Love for the Master is what is needed to be tested to see if it was safe for eternity.
That is, the 'Perfect' Born Again ones, not the Gentils. John 3:3.

 (Nah. 1:9) Before sin, man had a perfect inmature Love. Yet it was not CREATED FULLY MATURE. Love MUST BE MATURED. Free will of choice demanded that His creation develope a CHARACTER that could not be given or created in its maturity without being as a robot. The provision is there in Christ (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) but the FREE CHOICE is our to make.

---John

[Agur3046]

Dear John
 
(removed for content)
       
Now that is a wonderful verse, and is useful to remind us of the necessity of study, but where does it say here in this passage that we need to study to be apporoved to heaven?

*******
We have perhaps a different 180 degree 'belief' on one approved, staying approved!? There is NO CONDENMATION to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Now what? We are ALL SAVED, lets just take a long sleep.


       Precisely that, and thats exactly what John 5:24 says, but the idea that we sleep long seems always a mis-conception for those not familiar with Eternal Security. but for the record, I say no.  I believe God Works in us to will and to work for his own good pleasure, and what I quoted is a bible verse (Phil 2:13).


Well, Matt. 4:4 followed verse one of Christ as man, being tempted. (tested is a better understanding. Unless one believes God delibertly & presumptously walked into temptation)


       Now how is this relating to salvation?


So what was the GodHeads purpose of testing anyone? Christ was PERFECT! So was Luciffer created perfect. And Adam & Eve were both created Very Good as is stated! (Perfect) So why in the world was the tree allowed to be put right there in the Midst of the Garden Of Eden???


       What is this about perfect at first and tests?  Are they clear pictures to you that they are what salvation is all about?  Remember that when God made things perfect, that does not mean, he created them Saved!  Notice that Adam and Eve did not know that they were naked -hence tey are innocent, they were perfect.  The meaning of perfect in context of creation and the fall of adam is this - uncorruption of sin.  
       Notice, before Adam sinned, all is perfect, after sin, there was weeds, thorns and thistles (Gen 3:19).  Animals that were once all vegitarians now grew fangs and claws.  Now everything was perfect, no storm, earthquakes, and other harsh conditions but now that Adam sinned, all that were once good, now are corrupted.  Now what is the difference between Adam and Satan?  Satan is the LightBearer.
       Adam as an innocent creature have yet to know good and evil, thats why he'd care less whether he is naked.  Satan However was in the presence of God, and he more than Adam knew about God.  Since he was a Servent by creation, He absolutly know who God is.  Therefore, as angels, the line is already drawn.  Knowing God, there was absolutly no reason to defy for God is the essence of Good.  Unfortunately, He has already made his decision:

14   Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15   Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:14-15

12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13   For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15   Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. - Isaiah 14:12-15

       What is the difference between Satan and Man?  Satan Knew God fully, more than Man limited in mind so when He ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, all men died - sin entered into the World.


       Now lets say that the going ons in genesis are pictures of Salvation, then you must account for the fact that when Adam sinned, he didn't make that sin up.  What atoned for his Sins?  God; the Lord killed an animal, and innocent creature, and covered his nakedmess and hers.  Adam didn't kill that animal, God did and HE covered the shame of man.  Now that is the Picture, of the coming sacrifice to end all sacrifices for sin.


This no doubt is where we disagree? Salvation & ALL Promises of God are conditional unless stated! (such as the rainbow in the sky) Heb. 13:20's EVERLASTING COVENANT is just that. CONDITIONS!  Perfect Love for the Master is what is needed to be tested to see if it was safe for eternity.
That is, the 'Perfect' Born Again ones, not the Gentils. John 3:3.

 (Nah. 1:9) Before sin, man had a perfect inmature Love. Yet it was not CREATED FULLY MATURE. Love MUST BE MATURED. Free will of choice demanded that His creation develope a CHARACTER that could not be given or created in its maturity without being as a robot. The provision is there in Christ (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) but the FREE CHOICE is our to make.


       The free agency to choose is a gift of God indeed, but to say that such agency applies to Salvation is a mere  reading in to scriptures.  Remember that Matthew 4:4 has nothing to do with Salvation.  If so, point to me where you read salvation there IN verse 4

Ps.  the verses you gave, I trust that you are not using them as proof text to a loss of salvation.

[ollie]

Why is it that some will pick and choose the believe and faith only verses and completely ignore the obedience of righteous living verses? Which when all studied as a whole and not singularly tells us that faith is obedience and obedience is faith. They go hand in hand one cannot be faithful without righteous obedience and one cannot be obedient without righteous faith.

[John the Baptist]

Why is it that some will pick and choose the believe and faith only verses and completely ignore the obedience of righteous living verses? Which when all studied as a whole and not singularly tells us that faith is obedience and obedience is faith. They go hand in hand one cannot be faithful without righteous obedience and one cannot be obedient without righteous faith.

******
Why is it that some will pick and choose ... you ask at the start?

One of two reasons perhaps?
First: They do not know what recreation is all about!

Next: Perhaps they do know? & have passed their probationary time period? 1 Peter 4:17 And have grieved or quenched the Holy Spirit for their last time to the point where He just cannot move their stuborn will? (conscience dead-I,I,I,I,I AM SAVED!)
See Rom. 8:14 for being 'LED', not forced, nor a workless faith!

[Heidi]

When approached by the rich man Jesus said "Why do you call me good?"..."No one is good but God alone." It is only by Jesus's forgiveness that we are saved. We all sin everyday. We all engage in some form of envy, pride, gluttony, greed, lust, wrath, and sloth. But now that we are forgiven, we no longer CONDONE our sins. We ask for forgiveness and continually ask God to bring us closer to the fruits of the spirit. None of us is righteous. But paradoxically, by admitting our sins He can take them away from us little by little. Then all that is left is love. How can we receieve His love, mercy, or forgiveness if we don't admit we need it? I personally would rather have His love in me than to try to be righteous.

[Agur3046]

Dear Heidi, John, and Ollie

       You brought up an exellent point Heidi!  Now Jesus is fully God and we all agree, but Jesus is also fully man.  Now although Jesus has never sinned, He never called himself good.  For a Holy and Just God, why is that so?  That's because in His Humanity, He is tempted as we are.  For him however, although he is tempted, He can never respond or obey to that temptation because as God, He can never sin.
       We however are slaves to sin, we have the nature of adam, so we are fallen.  In james 2:10, if we stumble on one, we violate all.  God is forgiving yes, but someone has to pay for that.  It is either we or Let Jesus do it.  You might say, "I believe JEsus, I trust Him for my Salvation"  No you don't, not if you add conditions to salvation.  If we trust in our abilities with the "help" of the Lord, that is not the same as trusting God ALONE for our salvation for we need to obey the rules either way now don't we?  Does God ever fail?  No, but since you believe we can lose it, God did fail now did he?  So now we have to do it ourselves now don't we?
       You might also say that you do not earn your salvation.  Then take this into account.  We know that the circumsision group nullify grace, but really, how different is the salvation you are adocating and that of the circumsison?  Sure, they believe in ceremonial, but they also believe in the Moral Law.  Since you believe the Moral Law also and you say that we Need to keep the whole Bible, then you have to conclude that your Gospel is no different than theirs because essentially, it works in the same principle of Salvation by Faith and Works.

       Now you are saying that we need to not single out, not pick and choose what we want to believe.  Amen, I agree, but John, you have yet to tell me how that verse (Matthew 4:4) is relevant to Salvation.  Now, it is a good analogy but what does 4:4, has to do with Salvation?

Agur

[John the Baptist]

Dear Heidi, John, and Ollie ...

 (removed for question)

       Now you are saying that we need to not single out, not pick and choose what we want to believe.  Amen, I agree, but John, you have yet to tell me how that verse (Matthew 4:4) is relevant to Salvation.  Now, it is a good analogy but what does 4:4, has to do with Salvation?

Agur

******
Man does not LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, "[BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD]" That is conclusive! All Scripture! See 2 Tim. 3:16. The Gospel IS EVERLASTING & THE COVENANT IS EVERLASTING! How does one KNOW THIS if one DOES NOT LIVE BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD? Why is the Bible CALLED THE WORD OF GOD?? See John 1:1-14.

[Heidi]

None of us is righteous or can ever be righteous. We all engage in some form of the 7 sins daily. How in the world can we be saved by righteousness? How much righteous living is enough to get to Heaven? That's what the pharisees (Jews) and the other religions are are trying to do. Good works are a result of the Holy Spirit working in us. That's what the bible means by faith without works...

[John the Baptist]

Hi, just [one more] time here. One submits his WILL (total being to Christ) to his new Master. Then one is RE/CREATED IN CHRIST. Rom. 8:1. NO CONDEMNATION! Perfect! Now what? Adam & Eve were *CREATED PERFECT in Christ too! And Luciffer & was created PERFECT also! (not recreated) Adam & Eve had on the robe of Christs Glory for a while. SO HAVE WE THE RIGHTOUSNESS OF CHRIST.

They were tested! But not us huh? I say salvation is CONDITIONAL on remaining in Christ. And is called the Everlasting Gospel and the Everlasting COVENANT! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. (Both are eternally conditional!) And yet you seem to say We can just do our thing as they did but remain in Christs Good GRACE? This is where we differ. But that is your free belief to have, huh? And what about me, & mine??

---John

[Heidi]

Jesus says that not one of His believers can be snatched out of His hand. He also says that the Holy Spirit will never go away. You can believe His words or someone else's. He also says that as long as we remain in His love, we will be FRUITFUL. If we don't remain in His love, we cannot produce good fruit. Some people get to heaven kicking and dragging their feet. Others produce good fruit. That's what he means when he says some seeds will fall on rocky soil and some on good soil.

Satan is a separate entity just like the Holy Spirit. Satan doesn't have the holy Spirit or He wouldn't be Satan. Eve fell from Grace just like all of us do. But those whose names are written in the Book of life will be forgiven. Once we receive forgiveness, that can never be taken back.

[John the Baptist]

Jesus says that not one of His believers can be snatched out of His hand. He also says that the Holy Spirit will never go away.
*******
John here:
The Holy Spirit will never go away you say? Catch this Truth! Gen 6:2 "MY SPIRIT SHALL NOT ALWAYS [STRIVE] WITH MAN". And about being snatched from Christ?? That IS THE TRUTH! But NEVER IS IT TRUTH THAT YOU CANNOT CHANGE [YOU] LEADER! 1 John 2:4! Hosea 4:6 Rev. 18:4 & Gen. 4:7 & on & on & on!  If you care? I will give you another host of Bibical 'inspired' TRUTH!
*******

 You can believe His words or someone else's. He also says that as long as we remain in His love, we will be FRUITFUL. If we don't remain in His love, we cannot produce good fruit. Some people get to heaven kicking and dragging their feet. Others produce good fruit. That's what he means when he says some seeds will fall on rocky soil and some on good soil.

Satan is a separate entity just like the Holy Spirit. Satan doesn't have the holy Spirit or He wouldn't be Satan. Eve fell from Grace just like all of us do. But those whose names are written in the Book of life will be forgiven. Once we receive forgiveness, that can never be taken back.