JEHOVAH WITNESSES

[piusx]

Of course I read all those verses but I think we are getting hung up on semantics here. First of all the pope is Christ vicar on earth. Yes we are all saints with a little s but I am talking about Saint's with a big S and we all know that only the Pope can make one of those. And I might add that to suggest that the Holy Father would make a Saint without God telling him to is sacriledge...and probably blasphemy too. 

[Shammu]

piusx, I can see you and I are going to agree, to disagree.

To me it is blasphemy, for any man to name a Saint. That is the work, of the Lord, and only the Lord. Most on this forum will also feel this way.

[piusx]

I agree that this is what we will have to do. It saddens me that people see the the Holy Father as outside the plan and work of God. But you are probably right about the mindset of the board

[Soldier4Christ]

I agree that this is what we will have to do.

I agree to this statement.

It saddens me that people see the the Holy Father as outside the plan and work of God. But you are probably right about the mindset of the board

Perhaps that is because of the mindset of Jesus Christ himself:

Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Jesus was chastising the Jews for doing this.

And most of us here follow Jesus not a man.

[piusx]

Pastor Rogers

with all due respect Jesus was talking about actual fathers.

[Soldier4Christ]

Pastor Rogers

with all due respect Jesus was talking about actual fathers.

I think that you need to read the rest of that chapter starting with verse 1 to understand what Jesus was saying there.

[piusx]

My point is Pastor and again I say this with all humility...but do you honestly believe that the Holy Father would allow us to call him "Holy Father" if he thought it was inappropriate for us to do do? I think he has read the bible a time or two too.

[Soldier4Christ]

There are many that read the Bible and still do what they should not do. If you read the portions of scripture that I pointed you to you would realise that no man should elevate themselves above others in that manner. For this reason Jesus told us not to call any man here on earth rabbi, master, father .....

By calling themselves Father or allowing others to call them such, that is what they are doing.

[piusx]

Pastor, please do not think me ungratefull. I am very gratefull that you are willing to share with me. Believe me when I tell you that these are not the kind of conversations that you can have with a preist. Try quoting the bible to a priest and see what that will get you. . But to me this is such a small thing like eating shellfish.

the real issue is apostolic succession. If Jesus appointed Peter as the first pope. Then that pope appointed the cardinals who named the next pope and that next pope said priest should not marry then is it not the will of God that preist should not marry because God could of always have  had the cardinals choose another Pope?

[Soldier4Christ]

Apostolic succesion .....  Peter was not the only Apostle. There were 11 others to start out with. Their were many others, such as Paul, to soon follow. Not all of those churches were of the catholic faith. Now we could argue till we were both blue in the face over which churches are and which ones are not of the Apostolic succession and neither of us would get anywhere.

Let me give you another group of verses that may help to explain some more of what I mean.

Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9  Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
 
Many churches, catholic and protestant alike set up their own doctrines. Many of these doctrines are not the teachings of Jesus. These are the teachings (doctrines) of men that these verses are talking about.

i.e. one church says that you must do good works in order to be saved. Yet we are told that we are saved by faith not of works.

[piusx]

Yes there were many apostles...but Jesus only said to one of them...Upon this rock I build my Church. Peter is latin for Rock. it was a pun. Jesus was saying Peter I build my church on you. And he did. St Peters Basilica is built over his tomb. these are facts and it is all in the bible. Jesus never said anything about churches. There is only one church and it is headed by the succesor of St Peter.

[Soldier4Christ]

Wrong again. There is only one church and it is headed by Jesus Christ not a man.

Now I have been very tolerant here so far because you have been asking questions. Now you are teaching and your teachings are against those of the Bible. You are teachings mans doctrines and not the doctrines of Jesus.

[piusx]

forgive me Pastor..I mispoke. Of course Jesus is the head of the church. what I meant to say is that here on earth that the representitive of Christ is the succesor of Peter.

Again I am just trying to understand. It sounds like what you are saying is the Pope is a man like any other man.
If this is what you are saying then you have to explain what Jesus meant by Upon this Rock I build my Church. Either Jesus gave Authority over the Church to Peter or he did not? I must add that I am not preaching...I don't have that authority

[Soldier4Christ]

The representative of Jesus Christ here on earth were all the Apostles. That is why He told them to preach the gospel to all on earth.

To answer your question:

Joh 21:16  He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17  He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

As you see Jesus told Peter to Feed His Sheep, not Peters sheep but Jesus' sheep. All too often pastors/priests take the authority away from Jesus thinking that they are in authority here on earth. Jesus did not relinquish His position as the head of the church, here on earth or in heaven he is still the head of the church not a man.

[Shammu]

PR I can't believe you forgot about..... Ephesians 5:23

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body.